predestination vs freewill

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Of course god saves us and not the other way around. Without his intervention we would have nothing to do with him. But that doesn't mean we don't have to answer when he calls. That is a choice that WE make. HE gives us a chance to make the choice, but we still choose to answer or not to answer.
The only ones that hear his voice are his sheep (born again, elect). and they follow him.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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When we sin, we lose our relationship with God, temporary, until we repent.
I was in 110% agreement with right up until you stated the above. Since our relationship with God was achieved by God and not ourselves, how then could it be lost or regained by anything that we may do or not do?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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I think I see what you are trying to get at but there are a few points I would like you to consider. Let me see if I can dissect them in your post.
Just wanted to say thank you again, awelight for your reply. You never spare any effort and are always willing to go the extra mile to communicate your beliefs and reasoning. Roger
 
Feb 22, 2021
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Since our relationship with God was achieved by God and not ourselves, how then could it be lost or regained by anything that we may do or not do?
Exactly, our fellowship is what we do/or fail, as we daily "present our bodies a living sacrifice" (1 Corinthians 1:9; Romans 12:1-2), Correct?
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Exactly, our fellowship is what we do/or fail, as we daily "present our bodies a living sacrifice" (1 Corinthians 1:9; Romans 12:1-2), Correct?
Sorry, not exactly sure that I understand your point ? in my opinion, our relationship with God, if we're of the elect, cannot be lost or regained - God chose us, we didn't choose Him. By His choice, our sin was forgiven. We are taught by the Bible in the ways of
being a Christian, but whether or not we live up to them perfectly , our relationship with God remains eternal and can't be lost because
it is by Christ not ourselves.
 
Feb 22, 2021
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Sorry, not exactly sure that I understand your point ? in my opinion, our relationship with God, if we're of the elect, cannot be lost or regained - God chose us, we didn't choose Him. By His choice, our sin was forgiven. We are taught by the Bible in the ways of
being a Christian, but whether or not we live up to them perfectly , our relationship with God remains eternal and can't be lost because
it is by Christ not ourselves.
Sorry, was just pointing out the VAST Difference Between "God Establishing
An ETERNAL Relationship { CANNOT "be BROKEN!" } With
us," And:

OUR fellowship {CAN "Be BROKEN"} With HIM. Hope this Clarifies...
 
Feb 16, 2017
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So you have to speak Greek fluently to know the difference between Hades and Gehenna? :LOL:

Not.
You have to speak, read, and write Koine Greek, fluently to be able to read a Greek text and understand it, on a level that rates you as able to do it.
But you have to be born again, before any of that matters, as if you are not, you can't discern it, same as you can't discern an english bible.

Now to your issue.
As you can't read Greek......you become a theological and spiritual pretender and a false authority when you try to correct the Bible with a language that you can't read.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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Just wanted to say thank you again, awelight for your reply. You never spare any effort and are always willing to go the extra mile to communicate your beliefs and reasoning. Roger
By God's grace, you are most welcome. As all the Sheep, I love to be fed by the Scriptures and by other's. Especially, those that are likeminded in the Truth.

So if the Lord gives me an opportunity to feed one of His Sheep, you can bet the farm, that I will go to any length and personal harm to help that one - If the Lord has better enlightened me, than the one asking the question. If not - then I better shut my one mouth and listen with my two ears. A wonderful man of God once said to me: " Do you know why God gave us one mouth but two ears? We are two listen, twice as much as we talk."

I love discussing the things of God. I just hope and pray, that what I type here, brings further Glory to God's matchless name.

God's grace is sufficient for all tasks.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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Sorry, was just pointing out the VAST Difference Between "God Establishing
An ETERNAL Relationship { CANNOT "be BROKEN!" } With
us," And:

OUR fellowship {CAN "Be BROKEN"} With HIM. Hope this Clarifies...
I whole heartedly agree with this statement. Many fail to recognize the difference between "Positional" sanctification and "Conditional" sanctification. Just as you pointed out, the difference in the Elect's "Positional" relationship with God and their "Conditional" relationship.

A great deal of the errors in Soteriology, it seems to me, is because that institution or person failed to see which verses are "Positional", in their subject matter and which are "Conditional".
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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I was in 110% agreement with right up until you stated the above. Since our relationship with God was achieved by God and not ourselves, how then could it be lost or regained by anything that we may do or not do?
In my understanding of what the scriptures teach, Salvation according to Greek interpretation means "deliverance"

There is a deliverance from this world into heaven, which was accomplished by God's sovereign grace. by his Son's death on the cross for all of those that God gave him. There is also a deliverance here in this world taught in the scriptures for God's born again elect when they follow his commandments by their good works.

There is a deliverance (salvation) into heaven by God's sovereign grace, and there is also a deliverance (salvation) by the obedient works of God's elect children that is given as they sojourn here on earth.

God has granted mankind the freedom to choose out his direction as he lives here in this world, but mankind does not have the freedom to choose his eternal destination.

Because God gave mankind the freedom to choose out his changes here on earth, they choose not to seek God, no, not one, therefore God choose, out of those that would not seek him, an elect people to adopt as his children and had his Son to pay their redemption price on the cross.

Our eternal destination cannot be lost, but after we are born again, and sin, we temporary lose our fellowship (not our eternal security). God will not fellowship sin.
 

SomeDisciple

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Jul 4, 2021
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The only ones that hear his voice are his sheep (born again, elect). and they follow him.
It looks to me like you dropped a pseudo John ch10, and then added your own interpretation to it. I'm pretty sure the pharasees were hearing the voice of god right there. He wasn't saying "oh, you guys are doomed not to believe, sucks to be you boys". He was telling them that they were not acting like the sheep in his analogy- they were acting like thieves, hirelings, or wolves. "You don't believe, because you're doing these other things instead."
therefore God choose, out of those that would not seek him, an elect people to adopt as his children and had his Son to pay their redemption price on the cross.
Right. So how did he choose these elect? Do you think it was at random? or does he call those who otherwise would not seek him, and elect to save those who answer?
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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There is a deliverance (salvation) into heaven by God's sovereign grace, and there is also a deliverance (salvation) by the obedient works of God's elect children that is given as they sojourn here on earth.
Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar with a "deliverance(salvation) by obedient works of God's elect children" doctrine - but perhaps I know it by a different terminology. When convenient, would you mind posting just a few verses that explains a deliverance (salvation) as you described it ? Thanks
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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nonsense

How could Paul teach holiness and total victory over sin if he was still the slave to it? the person in Romans 7 willed to do good but did evil instead in other words sin had dominion over him.

Paul does relate his past condition of being under the law but not saved in the present tense.
Paul never preached sinlessness in this flesh life.. That's your misinterpretation of scripture forcing you to twist other scriptures to make them conform to your basic foundational error..

The Bible teaches that Jesus overcame the Penalty of Sin which is the second death.. The Victory we have with Jesus is over The second death..
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Did Adam and Eve have choice. If they did have a choice to sin or not sin in the beginning the cause of our fall is on Adam and Satan. but if they didn't have a choice then God is at fault.
And Satan or Lucifer, Did he have a choice to follow God or to rebel against God. Sin did not start by the will of God. God did not force sin to happen.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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Paul never preached sinlessness in this flesh life.. That's your misinterpretation of scripture forcing you to twist other scriptures to make them conform to your basic foundational error..

The Bible teaches that Jesus overcame the Penalty of Sin which is the second death.. The Victory we have with Jesus is over The second death..
No Paul preached present holiness, not perfection except in the legal sense, but Putting to death the deeds of the flesh, throwing off the sins which so easily beset us. Let not sin be named among you.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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Did Adam and Eve have choice. If they did have a choice to sin or not sin in the beginning the cause of our fall is on Adam and Satan. but if they didn't have a choice then God is at fault.
And Satan or Lucifer, Did he have a choice to follow God or to rebel against God. Sin did not start by the will of God. God did not force sin to happen.

They all had free will before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In no way was God at fault or responsible for the fall. In fact, just the opposite - God very explicitly told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would die, which warning they chose to ignore.

Adam and Eve had free will because they had been created in God's image:

[Gen 1:27 KJV] 27
So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Satan had it because he had been created perfect in his ways:

[Eze 28:15 KJV] 15
Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So, there was no excuse

Please observe (below) that spiritual death began with Adam and Eve (and was also passed to everyone ever born). By Adam's and Eve's eating of the tree, was law brought forth, which law imputed sin and spiritual death upon mankind. That is, a sentence of death accompanies the law of sin and death..

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gen 2:16-17 KJV]
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Rom 5:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[1Co 15:56-57 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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You have to speak, read, and write Koine Greek, fluently to be able to read a Greek text and understand it, on a level that rates you as able to do it.
But you have to be born again, before any of that matters, as if you are not, you can't discern it, same as you can't discern an english bible.

Now to your issue.
As you can't read Greek......you become a theological and spiritual pretender and a false authority when you try to correct the Bible with a language that you can't read.
How do you know I can’t read Greek? And it is REALLY easy to pick up a Greek New Testament and look up a verse and see what it says and whether it is using Hades or Gehenna or krino or katakrino. A first semester Greek student can do that.

And I read the New Testament quite often.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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How do you know I can’t read Greek? And it is REALLY easy to pick up a Greek New Testament and look up a verse and see what it says
I said...>"unless you can".....
And you have now explained that you can't.
And you have made the error of believing that if you read someone's translation, that is found in a Greek Lexicon....then that is you reading the GREEK.
It isn't.
You are reading the translators, translation, and you, like a lot of people who dont think about things deeply, didnt realize that you are reading a TRANSLATORS translation, and not the Greek itself.
Then you come with the Translator's translation, and try to pretend you are a Greek Authority.
And all that is deceit, as its deceit to pretend you can do something, when you can't.
Never do this on a Christian forum or in a Sunday School Class or from a Pulpit.

Always BE REAL.......never be a FAKIR.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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I said...>"unless you can".....
And you have now explained that you can't.
And you have made the error of believing that if you read someone's translation, that is found in a Greek Lexicon....then that is you reading the GREEK.
It isn't.
You are reading the translators, translation, and you, like a lot of people who dont think about things deeply, didnt realize that you are reading a TRANSLATORS translation, and not the Greek itself.
Then you come with the Translator's translation, and try to pretend you are a Greek Authority.
And all that is deceit, as its deceit to pretend you can do something, when you can't.
Never do this on a Christian forum or in a Sunday School Class or from a Pulpit.

Always BE REAL.......never be a FAKIR.
Where did you learn the meanings of Koine Greek words? And you are conflating definitions with translations.
 
Feb 16, 2017
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Where did you learn the meanings of Koine Greek words? And you are conflating definitions with translations.
Grk TXt is in Koine Greek.

there are 30 "extant" grk texts, and one that was turned into Latin, by Jerome the "vulgate" that later was mostly used to created the Satanic Catholic Douay Rheims version that created the devils lie.......>"born AGAIN by water".
"Jerome" created this satanic lie that you are BORN AGAIN by water.

My training?
Semnary, manuscript evidence among other things.