predestination vs freewill

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OIC1965

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I said...>"unless you can".....
And you have now explained that you can't.
And you have made the error of believing that if you read someone's translation, that is found in a Greek Lexicon....then that is you reading the GREEK.
It isn't.
You are reading the translators, translation, and you, like a lot of people who dont think about things deeply, didnt realize that you are reading a TRANSLATORS translation, and not the Greek itself.
Then you come with the Translator's translation, and try to pretend you are a Greek Authority.
And all that is deceit, as its deceit to pretend you can do something, when you can't.
Never do this on a Christian forum or in a Sunday School Class or from a Pulpit.

Always BE REAL.......never be a FAKIR.
Since everyone reads translations, and teaches and preaches translations, I guess no one should preach or teach the New Testament.

And you do know what a Lexicon is, right?
 

OIC1965

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Grk TXt is in Koine Greek.

there are 30 "extant" grk texts, and one that was turned into Latin, by Jerome the "vulgate" that later was mostly used to created the Satanic Catholic Douay Rheims version that created the devils lie.......>"born AGAIN by water".
"Jerome" created this satanic lie that you are BORN AGAIN by water.

My training?
Semnary, manuscript evidence among other things.
You didn’t answer the question. How do you determine the meaning of Koine Greek words? When you read the Greek NT? Who taught you koine Greek?

And there are a lot more than 30 extant Greek texts.
 

OIC1965

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Grk TXt is in Koine Greek.

there are 30 "extant" grk texts, and one that was turned into Latin, by Jerome the "vulgate" that later was mostly used to created the Satanic Catholic Douay Rheims version that created the devils lie.......>"born AGAIN by water".
"Jerome" created this satanic lie that you are BORN AGAIN by water.

My training?
Semnary, manuscript evidence among other things.
Who taught you koine Greek? Or is Koine Greek your first language? 30 extant greek texts, my hind leg!!!
 

ForestGreenCook

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It looks to me like you dropped a pseudo John ch10, and then added your own interpretation to it. I'm pretty sure the pharasees were hearing the voice of god right there. He wasn't saying "oh, you guys are doomed not to believe, sucks to be you boys". He was telling them that they were not acting like the sheep in his analogy- they were acting like thieves, hirelings, or wolves. "You don't believe, because you're doing these other things instead."

Right. So how did he choose these elect? Do you think it was at random? or does he call those who otherwise would not seek him, and elect to save those who answer?
To hear God's voice means to understand that he is their righteous Father by adoption. Those that are not of the elect will not respond.

The election of God's elect children was accomplished by God even before he formed the world. The elect has no part or action in being elected. Only the elect, after they are born into this world, and then are born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will respond to God's calling.

Jesus died only for those elect that God gave to him.
 

OIC1965

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Grk TXt is in Koine Greek.

there are 30 "extant" grk texts, and one that was turned into Latin, by Jerome the "vulgate" that later was mostly used to created the Satanic Catholic Douay Rheims version that created the devils lie.......>"born AGAIN by water".
"Jerome" created this satanic lie that you are BORN AGAIN by water.

My training?
Semnary, manuscript evidence among other things.
Ps. You can look up a words etymology and examine how the word is used in different places of the Bible. We do not rely solely on lexicons. Scripture interprets scripture.

And according to your argument, if followed to the logical conclusion, we should not use any English translations, because they are translations.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar with a "deliverance(salvation) by obedient works of God's elect children" doctrine - but perhaps I know it by a different terminology. When convenient, would you mind posting just a few verses that explains a deliverance (salvation) as you described it ? Thanks
Romans 10 is one example of a salvation that is not eternal, but a salvation that happens to God's elect, as they sojourn here in this world.

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. Iacob (Israel) represents God's elect, Rom 9:11.

Paul's prayer was that these elect people that have "a zeal of God" but were ignorant of God's righteousness would be delivered (saved) by receiving the knowledge of God's righteousness.

Matt 50:6, Many of God's people are "lost sheep" (not eternally lost, but lost from the knowledge of God's righteousness) because they have been taught many false doctrines by their pastors. These are the people that God's truly ordained pastors are supposed to be preaching the (Gospel, the righteousness of God) to.

The two gates in Matt 7 harmonizes with this thought; The wide gate, being the lost sheep who have been taught false doctrines, and the straight gate being those that have been revealed the understanding of the Gospel. The "life" that the narrow path leads to is not eternal life, but that abundant life that God has made available for his sheep, if they will follow his commandments. All of God's elect people that enter into both gates have the security of their home in heaven by Jesus's death on the cross.

I believe the scriptures to teach that there will be a much greater number that enter heaven than there are that go to hell. The gospel is "good news".
 

awelight

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Did Adam and Eve have choice. If they did have a choice to sin or not sin in the beginning the cause of our fall is on Adam and Satan. but if they didn't have a choice then God is at fault.
And Satan or Lucifer, Did he have a choice to follow God or to rebel against God. Sin did not start by the will of God. God did not force sin to happen.
I really don't get what you were driving at with that post. To even imply the idea that sin might be the fault of God is a horrible thought to have rolling around in ones head. To even suggest it, in the form of a question, is so far removed from understanding God's Holiness that it defies common sense.

Where were you going with this.
 

awelight

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Where did you learn the meanings of Koine Greek words? And you are conflating definitions with translations.
Apparently, he does not understand the difference between a Lexicon - a book of definitions - and what you were referring to - a Greek English Interlinear - the Koine Greek New Testament with English translation.
 

rogerg

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Romans 10 is one example of a salvation that is not eternal, but a salvation that happens to God's elect, as they sojourn here in this world.

Sorry, I can be dense, but I don't understand how salvation cannot be eternal? I can only find one true salvation in the Bible: eternal salvation -- that's why it is called salvation - otherwise, if it can end, it was transient and therefore, not salvation. I realize that God used types and pictures as part of the Bible that He alone made occur, but as allegory to depict for our edification, that which is spiritual. Is that somehow what you're referring to?

I believe the following verses define God's purpose and intent as to why He wrote the Bible. I
try to fall back upon them when I need to regain my biblical bearings.
They inform us of the Bible's master and overriding doctrines: 1) that it was written solely about Christ as Savior whose purpose alone was to do the Father's will, and 2) that it was the Father's will to give eternal life to whom He had chosen.
The rest of the Bible was built upon that.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Anyway, I guess we come from two different perspectives on this topic.
 

awelight

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Romans 10 is one example of a salvation that is not eternal, but a salvation that happens to God's elect, as they sojourn here in this world.

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel, Gen 32:28. Iacob (Israel) represents God's elect, Rom 9:11.

Paul's prayer was that these elect people that have "a zeal of God" but were ignorant of God's righteousness would be delivered (saved) by receiving the knowledge of God's righteousness.

Matt 50:6, Many of God's people are "lost sheep" (not eternally lost, but lost from the knowledge of God's righteousness) because they have been taught many false doctrines by their pastors. These are the people that God's truly ordained pastors are supposed to be preaching the (Gospel, the righteousness of God) to.

The two gates in Matt 7 harmonizes with this thought; The wide gate, being the lost sheep who have been taught false doctrines, and the straight gate being those that have been revealed the understanding of the Gospel. The "life" that the narrow path leads to is not eternal life, but that abundant life that God has made available for his sheep, if they will follow his commandments. All of God's elect people that enter into both gates have the security of their home in heaven by Jesus's death on the cross.

I believe the scriptures to teach that there will be a much greater number that enter heaven than there are that go to hell. The gospel is "good news".
Forest - you and I usually agree on a lot of Doctrinal points but I have some reservations about a couple you made in this post.

First - I agree with you, that many confuse the understanding of "Positional" versus "Conditional". We both know, one must determine if the verse under study is positional or conditional in it's nature. Not doing so can lead to great error.

I agree, if one stays on the "narrow path" - keeps the ordinances and commandments of the Lord - he will lead a blessed life.

However, I do not agree with your conclusion about the "Gates" of Matthew 7. There is indeed an aspect of "conditional" living mentioned therein but the two contrasting targets: "life" and "Destruction" are both eternal in their scope. Those who enter the narrow gate are those with eternal security. This same group, stays on the "narrow path" because of God given perseverance. Since the beginning of this walk was started by God, it's conclusion is with God. Conversely, those who are walking by their own merits - the broad gate and broad path - are those walking to destruction. The narrow path has to many obstacles and constrictions for those on the broad path. They take one look at it and say: "No Thanks !"

Therefore, Matthew 7:12-14, as I see it, has both a "conditional" aspect in it's teachings and a "positional" aspect as well. Proverbs 4:10-27, is a Divine commentary on what Jesus said here.

Finally, I totally disagree with your statement here:
You said:
"I believe the scriptures to teach that there will be a much greater number that enter heaven than there are that go to hell. The gospel is "good news"

I was surprised you came to this conclusion. God chose Israel, not because it was the largest populated nation. Indeed, it was one of the smallest. Then out of that Nation, God took for himself a "remnant", (Gen.45:7, Isa. 11:11&16, Rom.9:27; 11:5). How large is a "remnant"? By definition, a small percentage of the whole.

When the Lord destroyed the world - How many were saved? Was it not just eight? When He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah - How many were saved there? When the Lord spoke of Salvation, in the Gospels, did He not say "few" would find the way. Are not the Sheep, His Sheep, considered a "Little flock"?

I too, would like to think that more will go to Heaven than Hell but this is not what Scripture teaches. It is a heart wrenching thing to get your head around but we better get in line with what Scripture teaches. It will be a small remnant.

Rom_9:27 And Isaiah cries concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:

The Gospel is indeed "Good News". But for whom was the Bible written for? To whom did God reveal His hand. Can you think of one time, in the Old Testament, when God revealed Himself outside of His own, except in judgement. Does not Scripture teach, that everything went to God's Covenant people first? Christ Himself, never left the territory of Israel during His ministry. When the Apostles were sent out to preach the Gospel, their mission was not the people of the world - they were to find the "lost sheep" (John 21:15-17), who were in the world. It is to them, that the Gospel is "Good News". For the rest - they are reading someone elses instruction Book.

Tough words I know but true never the less. Reminds me of this:

John_6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble?
 

rogerg

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Does not Scripture teach, that everything went to God's Covenant people first?
Just to be sure, when you say "God's Covenant people", do you mean the elect (from ALL nations, peoples and tongues), or only the Jews of nation of Israel?
 

awelight

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It looks to me like you dropped a pseudo John ch10, and then added your own interpretation to it. I'm pretty sure the pharasees were hearing the voice of god right there. He wasn't saying "oh, you guys are doomed not to believe, sucks to be you boys". He was telling them that they were not acting like the sheep in his analogy- they were acting like thieves, hirelings, or wolves. "You don't believe, because you're doing these other things instead."

Right. So how did he choose these elect? Do you think it was at random? or does he call those who otherwise would not seek him, and elect to save those who answer?
This is such an old worn out argument.

First of all, John 10 is a parable - Christ was not speaking in a straight forward way because of the presents of the Pharisees and Scribes. When He talked in a parable, it was to hide what He was saying from the unregenerate minds of these religionist.

Mat_13:34 All these things spoke Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spoke he nothing unto them:
Mar_4:13 And he says unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how shall ye know all the parables?
Mar_4:34 and without a parable spoke he not unto them: but privately to his own disciples he expounded all things.


Even His own disciples, missed the meanings of these parables, often times but according to Mark 4:34, Christ explained them to them in private. Why did they not understand? Because they did not yet have the indwelling of the Spirit - for the Comforter had not yet been sent. Once the Comforter came, the indwelling Holy Spirit, then they were brought into remembrance and were taught the deeper meanings. (John 16:13).

As to God's Election - It is the exercising of His Sovereign will from before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4). He gives no explanation as to how he chose nor does He need too. He is God - that's good enough. Scripture says God does as he pleases. All Scripture tells us is, that He chose all manner of mankind.

God does not Elect out of our reaction to the Gospel. This would not be a Sovereign election if this was the case. This would place God reacting, to what His creation does or does not do. God is actionary not reactionary. This would also nullify the idea that Grace is an unmerited Grace. God would be electing on the basis of merit. In other words, I give you grace because I saw that you were going to believe in my Son. This would be merited Grace.

Additionally, it would destroy the meaning behind Romans 9:11 and 9:15:

Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.


These verses are the Biblical definition of unmerited Grace.
 

OIC1965

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Apparently, he does not understand the difference between a Lexicon - a book of definitions - and what you were referring to - a Greek English Interlinear - the Koine Greek New Testament with English translation.
I don’t even use interlinear. Just Greek text. I may use a lexicon if I don’t know a word, and sometimes I consult a chart or interlinear if I’m not sure about the conjugation of a verb, but I wonder who taught him the meaning of Koine Greek words. Is Greek his natural language or his teacher’s natural language. And whoever it is, if they ever used a dictionary to look up a word, they’re unqualified anyways.

So I guess we’re supposed to know every single word in the Greek NT, and we better not have ever used a lexicon to look up a word, or else we are unqualified.

I look at how a Greek word is used in various contexts the Bible more than I use a lexicon. But he’s probably anti-concordance too. You have to have Koine Greek as your first language in his world.
 

awelight

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Just to be sure, when you say "God's Covenant people", do you mean the elect (from ALL nations, peoples and tongues), or only the Jews of nation of Israel?
I was using "covenant" in that sentence, as in God's chosen Nation - the Jews - thus, to the Jews first then the Gentiles. There is only one true Covenant, when it comes down to Soteriology. This is in Hebrews:

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,

Christ referred to it in Matthew:

Mat_26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.

He called it a "new covenant" during the Lord's supper. New, because it put away all of the types and shadows that proceeded it.

Luke_22:20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.

I hope that clarifies.
 

awelight

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I don’t even use interlinear. Just Greek text. I may use a lexicon if I don’t know a word, and sometimes I consult a chart or interlinear if I’m not sure about the conjugation of a verb, but I wonder who taught him the meaning of Koine Greek words. Is Greek his natural language or his teacher’s natural language. And whoever it is, if they ever used a dictionary to look up a word, they’re unqualified anyways.

So I guess we’re supposed to know every single word in the Greek NT, and we better not have ever used a lexicon to look up a word, or else we are unqualified.

I look at how a Greek word is used in various contexts the Bible more than I use a lexicon. But he’s probably anti-concordance too. You have to have Koine Greek as your first language in his world.
Yes - comparing the Greek word, as used in every verse of the NT, is the best way to understand it's meaning. This to is my practice when doing my own translations. I just completed a word study for the word apostacy. Used only four times in Scripture. It's basic meaning is "to be separated from" or "to fall away from". Good study. Because it carries the meaning, to be separated from something or someone but not necessarily from ones own activity; rather because of another's influence. Made me think of:

2Th_2:11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:

I may occasionally consult Lexicons when the Greek word has only one occurrence in Scripture.

Most who teach Greek today, teach "classical" Greek and that can get you in big trouble with the Koine Greek. Even someone who speaks modern Greek, is of little value with a lot of the Koine Greek.
 

Icedaisey

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Predestination, and God's Sovereignty over his creation, and his own words, preclude humans having moral agency and free will above and beyond what God has said he has predestined, preplanned, due to his will for us, and due to his zeal for his own glory.


Do we really believe what God says in his word?

“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matthew 13:34

“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34
“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6


Why? Jesus tells us.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.
“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13

“And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.” Matthew 13:10-11


Which is then the meaning behind these words of Jesus:
“Many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14
Jesus said, “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” John 15:16


Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Ephesians 1:3-6 and verse 11 “Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will, to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. [...]11. In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Isaiah 29: 15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the Lord,
who do their work in darkness and think,
“Who sees us? Who will know?” (*free will? Not according to this)
16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,
“You did not make me”?
Can the pot say to the potter,
“You know nothing”?



Isaiah 45:9-11 (*For those who think to argue against the scriptures and claim, "God didn't mean it that way!" , take heed:
9.“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’
11 “This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?


How do we worship God, claim we read his word, and then argue he didn't actually mean what is said there? Maybe because our deeper consciousness from God knows he hasn't called us? And we, acting as the many (all) who are called, thinking insisting we're of the few he has chosen, predetermined in his Book of Life, makes it so?

Hearken back to Matthew 13:10-11 when reading this. Context is everything.

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.


How do we know we're his chosen?
When we're dead and at the judgment. Then we will know if we are one of the many. Or one of the few.
Meanwhile, it is given to us to judge, using righteous judgment, when we encounter one another as to which of those two categories we may fall into.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God.
Matthew 12: 36-37 “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned”

Hebrews 11

Proverbs 12:6
The words of the wicked lie in wait for blood,
but the mouth of the upright delivers them.

Particularly telling in forums:
1 Peter 3:15 “In your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”
 

rogerg

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Matthew 12: 36-37 “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned”
[Eze 36:26-27 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

[Mat 12:35 KJV]
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

[Luk 6:45 KJV]
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. ...

[Heb 8:10-13 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
 

Icedaisey

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[Eze 36:26-27 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

[Mat 12:35 KJV]
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

[Luk 6:45 KJV]
45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. ...

[Heb 8:10-13 KJV]
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
And?