predestination vs freewill

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OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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Hey butting in again.

I don't think one should try to pin down "when" the new birth takes place. It is by it's nature, a supernatural event wrought out by God. No one can know for sure, how far in advance this birth takes place of one hearing the message and beginning their conversion experiences. Some think it might be days, some think it might be nanoseconds before a genuine conversion begins.

What we do know about Saul is, he hated the church and Jesus Christ. But at the moment Christ came upon him, Saul called him "Lord". Was Saul prepared beforehand by the new birth like Lydia?

Acts_16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord had opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

Or - in Saul's case, was it instantaneous with his meeting the power and Glory of the Lord. After all, the Second Person of the Godhead is quite capable of quickening an individual. There is no way to be sure. What we do know - it was private. Those traveling with him, did not hear are understand what was happening.
I’m not sure if I agree with first paragraph starting with “ no one…” but I agree with the rest of your post.

It seems to me in my study of the Bible that the scriptures never say we are born from above without the Gospel and the Spirit.

But I am willing to accept whatever can be demonstrated by Scripture.
 

OIC1965

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As to the subject of the "free will" (I am no longer responding to Kidron's posts). but wanted to remind you of something he was trying to get at.

He was comparing our "will" to that of Adam's. This shows a lack of understanding in the foundational base of the Bible's message.

Adam was created in an "upright" condition. Since Adam was upright before God and communed with God, there was no sin in him. Therefore Adam's "will" was indeed "free". However, after the fall in sin, this "original" uprightness was lost. For the rest of Human history, mankind's "will" is in "bondage" to sin. We know the solution for this bondage problem.

So Adam's "will" or "ability" can NEVER be equated with man's fallen state. He has lost that freedom and ability until God does something for him.

Didn't mean to butt in but thought you might be interested in my thoughts on this. Keep up the Good Fight. I fear however, the discussion with Kidron has just become circular.
Yes, saying that our will is as free as Adam’s is basically the root of Pelagianism.
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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No, Scripture is alive.
The "vomit" is a pre-destined elect heretic, who believes that all his family has to be the elect, yet, that does not apply to everyone else....does it?
You see it, right?
Sure you do.

So, this type of cut and paste theological puke, is an offense to God, as its a Satanic theology that spits on the Cross of Christ, and denies the Grace of God.
Or, you're wrong.

One thing is certain. Jesus also says, we shall answer for every word uttered.
It's one thing to claim Christ. It's quite another as to whether or not we speak as if he knows us and we know him.
 

Icedaisey

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Think so.

[Luk 7:49-50 KJV]
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Keep in mind, Luke and the Book of Acts of the Apostles were written years after Jesus.
And that record is true because Divine Jesus, God, Emmanuel, the son of man, had the power to forgive sins even before the cross.
Matthew 9 Interlinear Bible (biblehub.com) 6. But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.”
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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Yes, saying that our will is as free as Adam’s is basically the root of Pelagianism.
Do you believe sin is something we are born with? Inherit Adam's sin nature being it was by his act that sin entered the world?
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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Do you believe sin is something we are born with? Inherit Adam's sin nature being it was by his act that sin entered the world?
I believe we were born with a fallen nature into a fallen world.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Hey butting in again.

I don't think one should try to pin down "when" the new birth takes place. It is by it's nature, a supernatural event wrought out by God. No one can know for sure, how far in advance this birth takes place of one hearing the message and beginning their conversion experiences. Some think it might be days, some think it might be nanoseconds before a genuine conversion begins.

What we do know about Saul is, he hated the church and Jesus Christ. But at the moment Christ came upon him, Saul called him "Lord". Was Saul prepared beforehand by the new birth like Lydia?

Acts_16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord had opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

Or - in Saul's case, was it instantaneous with his meeting the power and Glory of the Lord. After all, the Second Person of the Godhead is quite capable of quickening an individual. There is no way to be sure. What we do know - it was private. Those traveling with him, did not hear are understand what was happening.
I love reading your post...
I love the way you explain Scripture in a calm manner , and how you are helping those with less understanding...
...xox...
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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See Romans 5 beginning in vs 12 to end of chapter.
"Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity; nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself." Ezekiel 18:20

"Therefore, I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct..." Ezekiel 18:30
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
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"Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity; nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself." Ezekiel 18:20

"Therefore, I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct..." Ezekiel 18:30
In Adam all died. In Christ, all are made alive.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,542
973
113
"Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity; nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself." Ezekiel 18:20

"Therefore, I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct..." Ezekiel 18:30
I believe babies who die in infancy go to heaven. But the fact remains, they die. And they do not die physically for any sin they personally committed.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,542
973
113
"Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity; nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself." Ezekiel 18:20

"Therefore, I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct..." Ezekiel 18:30
Cconsider Romans 5:14 and 1 Corinthians 15:22
 

Icedaisey

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In Adam all died. In Christ, all are made alive.
If we are spiritually dead through Adam, when our soul is given us by our living God, why did Jesus say in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven we must become like little children?

Job 32:8: But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
 

Icedaisey

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Jul 19, 2021
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I believe babies who die in infancy go to heaven. But the fact remains, they die. And they do not die physically for any sin they personally committed.
What about children? Non-infants?
 

OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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If we are spiritually dead through Adam, when our soul is given us by our living God, why did Jesus say in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven we must become like little children?

Job 32:8: But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Humility and trust