predestination vs freewill

[rogerg]

@rogerg If you disagree with what I said in post #1277 then answer it. I just went by the bible. Do you have a problem with the quote from the LBCF, are you saying it is not correct?
If you disagree with the post it is not me that you disagree with it is with the bible.

Thanks for the invite, Justified. I always feel like there's a thin line that separates contributing to a dialogue between
others, and in being a buttinski. But, now that you've been gracious to suggest it I'll reply, but probably
tomorrow .
Respectfully, I don't ever disagree with the Bible. I however am in disagreement with your interpretations of it - if I'm correctly understanding you

 

[Justified]

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


[Act 2:37 KJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?

No, you didn't. Because they were able to hear and respond when others didn't and couldn't, that tells us they already had the Holy Spirit. The hearing in view could only be given by the Holy Spirit - they first needed to receive spiritual ears to hear before being able to hear

[Act 2:39 KJV] 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Act 2:41 KJV]
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

[Act 7:51 KJV]
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

Jhn 15:26 KJV] 26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

[1Co 12:8 KJV]
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Where do you get your theology from because it sure can not be the bible. What do you think Joh 16:8-11 means? And where do you get this from "Because they were able to hear and respond when others didn't and couldn't, that tells us they already had the Holy Spirit. The hearing in view could only be given by the Holy Spirit - they first needed to receive spiritual ears to hear before being able to hear" Try to look at your theology and think it through to the logical end.
You are so stuck in your "doctrines of grace" that you can not see the forest for the trees.

 

[Justified]

Thanks for the invite, Justified. I always feel like there's a thin line that separates contributing to a dialogue between
others, and in being a buttinski. But, now that you've been gracious to suggest it I'll reply, but probably
tomorrow .
Respectfully, I don't ever disagree with the Bible. I however am in disagreement with your interpretations of it - if I'm correctly understanding you

I await your reply.

 

[justpassinthrough]

It cannot be before the New Birth because you are still in darkness. You still possess the old nature. Scripture clearly says your nature must be changed before you can hear and understand the Gospel message. Please read post #254 for more clarification. The Gospel message is received by those who have been Born Again.

Acts_13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

The Gentiles, by the fact that they heard, prove they had experienced the New Birth and possessed "hearing" ears. The ones that had experienced the new birth are equal to the number that were "ordained to eternal life".

The "gift" of the Spirit are not the same thing as the New Birth. The "gift" of the Spirit, are the various abilities given by the Spirit. The abilities they had just witnessed, associated with Pentecost. Each person, in Christ, has various gifts given to them by the Spirit. However, to do what Peter said, Repent and be Baptized, would be an indication they were already Born Again. Their nature changed - these born anew believers could receive the message and repent of their past way of life.

The way a person is born again is by believing and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

JPT

 

[rogerg]

Where do you get your theology from because it sure can not be the bible. What do you think Joh 16:8-11 means? And where do you get this from "Because they were able to hear and respond when others didn't and couldn't, that tells us they already had the Holy Spirit. The hearing in view could only be given by the Holy Spirit - they first needed to receive spiritual ears to hear before being able to hear" Try to look at your theology and think it through to the logical end.
You are so stuck in your "doctrines of grace" that you can not see the forest for the trees.

Do you mean this theology?

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

So, the only way that someone CAN truly believe the Gospel is if God first opens their spiritual ears, eyes, mind, etc.

 

[Justified]

Do you mean this theology?

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Rom 11:8 KJV]
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

So, the only way that someone CAN truly believe the Gospel is if God first opens their spiritual ears, eyes, mind, etc.

So if I am reading your response correctly the only way a person can believe is if God allows them to believe. Now if you have not thought this through that also means that all those that do not believe never had the chance to believe so in effect it is God that has condemned them. He is responsible for what they do or fail to do.
Why do I say this, well think about it. God could have allowed for anyone hearing the gospel or witnessing the miracles to have believed but according to you He did not.
So those that do not believe can say they have a excuse for not believing, God did not allow them to. This is what happens when you misread the scriptures, you make God responsible for peoples bad choices.

But God is not responsible because He has allowed man to make choices. God has given man a free will and holds them responsible for the choices they make.
This is why context matters.
Read
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;

They had willfully, voluntarily, closed their eyes to miracles He performed, and prophetic Scriptures that had been fulfilled before them, so that God permitted them to go on in their chosen course of willful ignorance.

 

[rogerg]

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Can it be any clearer faith is not a work but is required for us to be justified/saved.

It not our work because it was CHRIST's work(faith) alone that saves

You do know Gal 2:16 informs that justification is by Christ's faith and our faith a gift from/by that? The faith of the true believer is given to them as a gift; that is, our faith is not of our doing but of God's:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Look at Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Believes is in the present active voice. That means that the subject (in this case Whoever) is the one performing the action(in this case believing) and that they are doing it now.

The question is answered in understanding the "believes" in this verse. Only those who are given faith as a gift by God believe, so, by that, we can know who the "whoever" are -- they are those whom God has chosen -- it is not an open-ended statement intended to include everyone. Remember, faith/belief is a gift given to some by God

Now this is the point you tried to make that I find the strangest. Are you saying that God, who is Omniscient, could not in His foreknowledge know those that would trust in His son for salvation? That is quite a leap for you to make. Then you really go outside the lines when you call free will a Heresy. I will just put that down to you being confused by your theology.

No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son". That is the core sin of mankind. So, had God not chosen to intervene on the behalf of certain people, no one would or could ever be saved. God is the Savior, we are not.

So if God has determined all that happens that means all things good or bad, God glorifying or God hating. How does that work? Also all those that are condemned to hell actually do have an excuse, they are there because God chose them to be there. They had no chance to believe and be saved, remember your irresistible grace and limited atonement are only for your so called elect.

No, please observe the following:

[1Co 15:21-22 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It was by Adam's and Eve's transgression that spiritual death came upon mankind. Adam and Eve, who were created in the image of God, understood what the penalty was for themselves and everyone else when they chose to violate God's command to not eat the of the tree. Nevertheless, they did so of themselves, so God bears no fault nor responsibility in this. By rights, no one should become saved, we are all under judgment. It is only because of God's mercy that anyone is saved - no one deserve it.

If you are still reading by this time then here is a verse that I would like you to explain from your theological view. 1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Still reading -- but don't understand your point with selecting that verse. If you mean its universality
relative to all mankind, then I would point you to Paul's salutation in 1 Co 1:1-2. His salutation was directed only to those who
were "sanctified in Christ Jesus". It did/does not apply to everyone


[1Co 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

 

[rogerg]

So if I am reading your response correctly the only way a person can believe is if God allows them to believe. Now if you have not thought this through that also means that all those that do not believe never had the chance to believe so in effect it is God that has condemned them. He is responsible for what they do or fail to do.
Why do I say this, well think about it. God could have allowed for anyone hearing the gospel or witnessing the miracles to have believed but according to you He did not.
So those that do not believe can say they have a excuse for not believing, God did not allow them to. This is what happens when you misread the scriptures, you make God responsible for peoples bad choices.

No - I am saying that Adam and Eve were responsible, not God.

[Rom 5:17 KJV]
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We are not saved by our faith/belief, we are saved by Christ's work and faith. Our faith is a gift given to some by God.
Faith is a work.

But God is not responsible because He has allowed man to make choices. God has given man a free will and holds them responsible for the choices they make.
This is why context matters.
Read
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;

They had willfully, voluntarily, closed their eyes to miracles He performed, and prophetic Scriptures that had been fulfilled before them, so that God permitted them to go on in their chosen course of willful ignorance.

No, they did not and could not understand the parables that Christ spoke in. Read again what you've highlighted. The verse
says "they do not see" and "do not hear and "nor do they understand" - not that they willfully, voluntarily, closed their eyes.
How do you come to that conclusion from those words? The verse simply cannot/does not support the interpretation you've derived.

 

[awelight]

“You did not receive the points that I was making because your Soteriological views blind you.”

It is not my Soteriological view it is the bible. Your calvinist view requires that man can not make any choices that would lead to faith. And if I am reading you right you think that faith is a work that has merit. But how do you respond to these verses:

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Do you see the contrast here, faith is not work, is not merit.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Can it be any clearer faith is not a work but is required for us to be justified/saved.

I could go on but these should be sufficient to show that faith is required and it is not a work.

You said that I make God beholding to my choices but how can that be since God is the one that requires me to have faith in Christ Jesus so that we can be justified. {see above}

“God chose out of the freedom and good pleasure of His will.” I agree there is no way that we could make God choose us but God did set a requirement, faith, as I have shown you already.

Look at Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Believes is in the present active voice. That means that the subject (in this case Whoever) is the one performing the action(in this case believing) and that they are doing it now.

So the question is why are they doing it now? For that we can look to Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, {when} after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So you see that salvation is available to all Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

And why do we know that it is available to all:

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now this is the point you tried to make that I find the strangest. Are you saying that God, who is Omniscient, could not in His foreknowledge know those that would trust in His son for salvation? That is quite a leap for you to make. Then you really go outside the lines when you call free will a Heresy. I will just put that down to you being confused by your theology.

With that said lets look at your theology. When you use the word Sovereign what you mean is divine causal determinism. Nothing happens outside of Gods’ direct control, He has decreed all things that happen.

“ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass” LBCF and the WCF

So if God has determined all that happens that means all things good or bad, God glorifying or God hating. How does that work? Also all those that are condemned to hell actually do have an excuse, they are there because God chose them to be there. They had no chance to believe and be saved, remember your irresistible grace and limited atonement are only for your so called elect.

Take the time to think through your “doctrines of grace” and see where they lead. You may find that the word Heresy better applies to your view than to those that do not hold to your view.

If you are still reading by this time then here is a verse that I would like you to explain from your theological view. 1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I never said, that Faith or the system of Faith does not play a role in Salvation. It is by our Faith and Hope that we believe. After one is regenerated, upon hearing the Gospel, that one places his God given Faith and Hope upon Jesus Christ. With a new nature, having been infused, the enmity with God is lifted. This ones desires are now for the things of God, which formerly were foolishness to him.

My argument is not about the subject of Faith but upon the necessary timing of the events of Salvation. Your understanding, would have one making a decision while they were still "dead" in trespasses and sin. When all of mankind "fell" in Adam, all of mankind's spiritual connection with God died. Fallen man's spirit is dead. This is Biblical fact:

Eph 2:1,2 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural" man, is the condition after the fall. A man with a non-functioning spirit. If you choose to ignore this Biblical fact, then ignore it. You still have to answer a simple question: If the Gospel is the message of hope, the lifeline from God to those who are going to be condemned, which it is - How does a "dead" person grasp this lifeline. Since the person is dead, you can throw the lifeline but a corpse cannot grasp it. You can shout the Gospel message at him but a corpse cannot hear. You can set the principles of Salvation before him but a corpse cannot see. This is the fundamental condition of every person because of the "fall".

Calvin called this, "total depravity", however, I disagree with Calvin on this point. Mankind is NOT totally depraved. Mankind is still capable of doing good things towards one another. Men risk their lives to save others. People help feed the hungry and help the injured. They may even live a decent moral life. However, these things are not seen as "good" in the eyes of God. The fallen state, renders fallen man's works as unacceptable before Him. Why? Because fallen mankind do not these things for God or give thanks to God but out of a selfish, self-serving motive. What Calvin should have said: Is that mankind is spiritually depraved. This fits better with the Scriptures teaching of being dead - spiritually.

Therefore, these things demand that God must first quicken - make alive his spirit - before he can grasp, hear and see the Gospel.

If you believe it can be done, apart from this Divine quickening of the Spirit - please explain how this would work. Please confine the discussion to the natural man and his fallen condition.

You quoted from the Westminster Confession about God's Sovereignty and Decrees and claimed that fallen mankind would have an excuse, because God chose them to be in Hell. This idea will not hold water. God did decree from Eternity, all of His purpose out of His good pleasure. However, mankind, apart from Salvation, are going to be condemned because of their association with Adam. In Him we all fell. (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:22). God elected some to Salvation but He did not condemn the rest to hell. The rest were condemned already. God cannot be blamed for their transgressions and sins. God determined, from eternity, to show Mercy and Compassion on some. He did not have to do that. He could have let all of mankind perish. But out of His love for what He created, (now under curse), and for His Son, He chose to save a remnant and give them to His Son, as a love offering. Whom God chose and why, is the hidden business of God.

As far as 1 Cor. 10:13, is concerned - I don't see the validity in this verse to our discussion. However, to sum it up - Paul is writing to believers. Temptation comes from within a man, even a born again man. We have been given a new nature but this nature most be cultivated and grown through the knowledge of the Scriptures. Our old sin nature is still present because believers are still in the flesh. Therefore, temptation can still rise up and take hold of the mind. All temptations form first in thought and then, possibly, progress to action. God will not let one of His own be tempted or tried beyond their capability. Their ability, is tied to their knowledge of Scripture and the application of this knowledge.

 

[awelight]

The promises made to earthly Israel by God not only contained blessings but also curses depending upon Israel's satisfying of God's commandments and laws, which, Israel failed to achieve. Consequently, God divorced them so all that remained were the curses. remained. Therefore, any rest mentioned unto the earthly Israel became null and void and was transferred to spiritual Israel-- the Israel of the elect.

[Deu 11:26-28 KJV]
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

[Dan 9:11 KJV]
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

[Heb 4:5-6, 8-9 KJV]
5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: ...
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

No rest for earthly Israel as we are informed in Heb 4:8.

[1Pe 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Those saved have become the "people of God", no longer are the earthly Jews




I believe that it does fit the Church. Please observe 2 Pe 2:9 - 10 previous



Yes, it is the Church that is in view, although it has become the new Jerusalem

[Rev 21:1-3 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

[1Pe 2:10 KJV] 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

[Rev 21:6 KJV]
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.



In what verses do you find that Israel (or any other nation for that matter) will sign a peace treaty ? I might have missed it
but could not find any such verses.

Roger - I have placed before you some of the principles of those who teach and believe in the Millennial Kingdom. Just as I do. The subject is to complexed to teach in a chat environment. Additionally, you and I going back and forth over verses will accomplish nothing.

For example, in Dan. 9:24, you do not except, that this prophecy is to Israel even though it clearly says: "..Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..." This is about and will be done upon "thy people", the Jews, Israel. It was given to them, by God, through Daniel. The holy city, is physical Jerusalem. To see it any other way, is to ignore the literal meaning of this prophecy and spiritualize it's meaning. This prophecy is not to the Church. The Church was not around at this time. It is some 700-600 years before Christ would even bring up the subject. When Christ spoke about the Great Tribulation that was to come, He spoke about these things literally taking place. He was also standing on Jewish ground when He said them. His audience were Jews. The A-millennialist believes that these events took place in 70AD. However, close study will show, that many of the events given by our Lord, never took place in 70AD.

I previously gave you the website address of the W.E. Best Books location (WEBBMT.org). If you are truly interested in what the Millennialist believe, I would suggest you read the three volume set, entitled "Christ's Kingdom is Future". I agree with everything he states in these books. Otherwise, I would not suggest them.

I am not blowing off our discussion but the scope of it is to broad. I will be glad to continue discussions but we are going to have to bring it down to a point by point. Take care.

 

[awelight]

So according to your view the people are saved before they even hear the gospel message. So how does that work since that is not what the bible save is it.
That does bring up a question or two. 1} Why even have a gospel message?
2} Why did Christ Jesus even have to go to the cross?
Your theology does lead to some very strange places.

But you also run up against scripture like Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, or here we see Paul once again Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

So by Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.

But note the order Paul describes here.

1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.

Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation. Rom_10:14-15

I think the simplest thing to do here - Justified - is to point you to a post that I just posted. Post #1289. Otherwise, there would be a lot of duplication effort. Thanks.

 

[awelight]

The way a person is born again is by believing and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-23



But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:16-17



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

• eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

JPT

Justpassingthrough - I would point you to post #1289 for the answer. I was responding to - Justified - but my response is applicable to your questions also. Thanks.

 

[rogerg]

For example, in Dan. 9:24, you do not except, that this prophecy is to Israel even though it clearly says: "..Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..." This is about and will be done upon "thy people", the Jews, Israel. It was given to them, by God, through Daniel. The holy city, is physical Jerusalem. To see it any other way, is to ignore the literal meaning of this prophecy and spiritualize it's meaning. This prophecy is not to the Church. The Church was not around at this time. It is some 700-600 years before Christ would even bring up the subject. When Christ spoke about the Great Tribulation that was to come, He spoke about these things literally taking place. He was also standing on Jewish ground when He said them. His audience were Jews. The A-millennialist believes that these events took place in 70AD. However, close study will show, that many of the events given by our Lord, never took place in 70AD.

aweligh, I think the following verses unconditionally demonstrates that God's people are no longer of the earthly Israel but are now the elect, the saved. It is not possible that earthly Israel and the elect/saved could at the same time be the people of God - it must be that it is one or the other.
The Jews in time past , and even now, were/are a people designated as being Israel. On the other hand, the elect/saved in time past were not a people. Now however, God has removed Israel from their special role/place/relationship with Him, and instead has given it to the elect/saved and made them both a people, and His people: the new Jerusalem. By this replacement (and I don't mean by the corporate church but the eternal spiritual church), we can know that Israel's special place with God has ended. Please read vs 10 following carefully - thx

[1Pe 2:7-10 KJV]
7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

"The holy city, is physical Jerusalem. To see it any other way, is to ignore the literal meaning of this prophecy and spiritualize it's meaning."

Disagree. The holy city is the new Jerusalem, not the old one in Israel. Since it is "adorned for her husband" it must be understood as a symbolic representations of the elect/saved, and not as a physical or geographical entity because God will not marry an physical city.

[Rev 21:2 KJV] 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

We are instructed in the Bible to spiritualize almost everything in it in order to find true meaning. Notice, the below doesn't direct us to compare the literal with the literal, but the spiritual with the spiritual.

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

and

[2Ti 2:15 KJV]
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

("dividing" means distinguishing the literal from the spiritual, and comparing the spiritual to the spiritual)

Further, we are informed that Israel itself serves as allegory: in the allegory, one part represents the literal; one represents the spiritual. They demonstrate the promise that the Jerusalem above is free and not subject to the bondage of law, but that the earthly Jerusalem counterpoint is in bondage to law. The Jerusalem which is above is free and symbolic of the saved/elect themselves who are not under law.

[Gal 4:22-26 KJV]
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The bride is the elect/saved

[Rev 21:2 KJV]
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I am not blowing off our discussion but the scope of it is to broad. I will be glad to continue discussions but we are going to have to bring it down to a point by point. Take care.

Yes, I agree with you that this it is getting unwieldy. So, when, and if, new thoughts or perceptions arise we
can discuss them individually point by point - should you desire to do so.

 

[Justified]

It not our work because it was CHRIST's work(faith) alone that saves

You do know Gal 2:16 informs that justification is by Christ's faith and our faith a gift from/by that? The faith of the true believer is given to them as a gift; that is, our faith is not of our doing but of God's:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



The question is answered in understanding the "believes" in this verse. Only those who are given faith as a gift by God believe, so, by that, we can know who the "whoever" are -- they are those whom God has chosen -- it is not an open-ended statement intended to include everyone. Remember, faith/belief is a gift given to some by God



No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son". That is the core sin of mankind. So, had God not chosen to intervene on the behalf of certain people, no one would or could ever be saved. God is the Savior, we are not.



No, please observe the following:

[1Co 15:21-22 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It was by Adam's and Eve's transgression that spiritual death came upon mankind. Adam and Eve, who were created in the image of God, understood what the penalty was for themselves and everyone else when they chose to violate God's command to not eat the of the tree. Nevertheless, they did so of themselves, so God bears no fault nor responsibility in this. By rights, no one should become saved, we are all under judgment. It is only because of God's mercy that anyone is saved - no one deserve it.



Still reading -- but don't understand your point with selecting that verse. If you mean its universality
relative to all mankind, then I would point you to Paul's salutation in 1 Co 1:1-2. His salutation was directed only to those who
were "sanctified in Christ Jesus". It did/does not apply to everyone


[1Co 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Rogerg



You have just presented what has to be the most obvious misreading of scripture I have seen. I am not even sure where to start with this. You have taken clear text and read into it what your calvinism requires. To be blunt that reading is just plain wrong on so many levels.



Gal 2:16 we are saved because we trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, just read the text “by faith in Jesus Christ” & “justified by faith in Christ” The text does not say by Christs’ faith.

You have totally misread this text.



Then you go to Gal 5:22 to help you but sorry wrong again.

Faith - On the meaning of the word faith. The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man, a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. Albert Barnes



‘Long suffering,’ ‘benignity,’ ‘goodness,’ ‘faithfulness’ (or fidelity), ‘meekness,’ are various forms of unselfish charity towards our fellow-men…‘faithfulness’ (not ‘faith’ towards God), is here fidelity, trustfulness in our dealings with others (‘love believeth all things,’ 1Co_13:7), Philip Schaff



He brings forth the “fruit of the Spirit” within us (“love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control,” Gal. 5:22–23), those qualities that reflect the character of God. Wayne Grudems’ Systematic Theology





All three of these are from calvinist writers and as you can see FAITH in Gal 5:22 is not the faith to believe it is fidelity, trustfulness, it reflects the qualities of God.



I think you also suggest that faith is a work but you contradict the bible. I am not sure how many times you have to be shown that we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus. And faith is not a gift from God



You have a special gift and that is to be able to misread any text you see. You keep saying faith is a gift of God. Wrong, I looked up all seven times that is in the bible and guess what none are a gift of faith/belief. So where do you get this idea from? It has to come from your calvinist teachings because it is not in the bible.



God did indeed intervene on behalf of people. He went to the cross {Christ Jesus} and made atonement of our sins available to all. And now he convicts us of our sins {Holy Spirit}. You say that “No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son".” But that gets blown out of the water by all the times that we are told to make a choice:

Mar_1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Luk_24:25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Joh_3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 6:36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.



All of these uses of BELIEVE are {Present Active} it is the person that is believing or not believing. God has given man the ability to make choices, for or against.



You make a bold statement when you say “Adam and Eve, who were created in the image of God, understood what the penalty was for themselves and everyone else when they chose to violate God's command to not eat the of the tree.”

What do you base that on? Remember they did not know about good and evil until AFTER they ate from the tree. Also you say that God bears no fault but under your view of Sovereignty {divine meticulous determination} that means that all things that have or will happen are decreed by God. Correct? Remember the LBCF & WCF both say that and I am not the one that holds to them, you are.



When I asked you about your thoughts on this verse

1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.



In light of your theology my question is how do you fit this into your theology? Actually I should say how CAN you fit this into your theology?

 

[Justified]

I never said, that Faith or the system of Faith does not play a role in Salvation. It is by our Faith and Hope that we believe. After one is regenerated, upon hearing the Gospel, that one places his God given Faith and Hope upon Jesus Christ. With a new nature, having been infused, the enmity with God is lifted. This ones desires are now for the things of God, which formerly were foolishness to him.

My argument is not about the subject of Faith but upon the necessary timing of the events of Salvation. Your understanding, would have one making a decision while they were still "dead" in trespasses and sin. When all of mankind "fell" in Adam, all of mankind's spiritual connection with God died. Fallen man's spirit is dead. This is Biblical fact:

Eph 2:1,2 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural" man, is the condition after the fall. A man with a non-functioning spirit. If you choose to ignore this Biblical fact, then ignore it. You still have to answer a simple question: If the Gospel is the message of hope, the lifeline from God to those who are going to be condemned, which it is - How does a "dead" person grasp this lifeline. Since the person is dead, you can throw the lifeline but a corpse cannot grasp it. You can shout the Gospel message at him but a corpse cannot hear. You can set the principles of Salvation before him but a corpse cannot see. This is the fundamental condition of every person because of the "fall".

Calvin called this, "total depravity", however, I disagree with Calvin on this point. Mankind is NOT totally depraved. Mankind is still capable of doing good things towards one another. Men risk their lives to save others. People help feed the hungry and help the injured. They may even live a decent moral life. However, these things are not seen as "good" in the eyes of God. The fallen state, renders fallen man's works as unacceptable before Him. Why? Because fallen mankind do not these things for God or give thanks to God but out of a selfish, self-serving motive. What Calvin should have said: Is that mankind is spiritually depraved. This fits better with the Scriptures teaching of being dead - spiritually.

Therefore, these things demand that God must first quicken - make alive his spirit - before he can grasp, hear and see the Gospel.

If you believe it can be done, apart from this Divine quickening of the Spirit - please explain how this would work. Please confine the discussion to the natural man and his fallen condition.

You quoted from the Westminster Confession about God's Sovereignty and Decrees and claimed that fallen mankind would have an excuse, because God chose them to be in Hell. This idea will not hold water. God did decree from Eternity, all of His purpose out of His good pleasure. However, mankind, apart from Salvation, are going to be condemned because of their association with Adam. In Him we all fell. (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:22). God elected some to Salvation but He did not condemn the rest to hell. The rest were condemned already. God cannot be blamed for their transgressions and sins. God determined, from eternity, to show Mercy and Compassion on some. He did not have to do that. He could have let all of mankind perish. But out of His love for what He created, (now under curse), and for His Son, He chose to save a remnant and give them to His Son, as a love offering. Whom God chose and why, is the hidden business of God.

As far as 1 Cor. 10:13, is concerned - I don't see the validity in this verse to our discussion. However, to sum it up - Paul is writing to believers. Temptation comes from within a man, even a born again man. We have been given a new nature but this nature most be cultivated and grown through the knowledge of the Scriptures. Our old sin nature is still present because believers are still in the flesh. Therefore, temptation can still rise up and take hold of the mind. All temptations form first in thought and then, possibly, progress to action. God will not let one of His own be tempted or tried beyond their capability. Their ability, is tied to their knowledge of Scripture and the application of this knowledge.

awelight

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “The Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again.” (Chosen By God, p.72)

Sproul adds: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ.” (Chosen By God, pp.72-73)

But not all Calvinists agree

Calvinist, Charles Spurgeon, explains: “If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.” The Warrant of Faith


One of these man contradict the bible, which do you think it is?

I give you a few clues

God stimulates the lost via the Holy Spirit who “convicts” (Joh_16:8-11), “pricks” (Act_26:14), “pierces” (Act_2:37) and “opens” hearts to receive Him. (Act_16:14). (Jesus “seeks” (Luk_19:10), “knocks” (Rev_3:20) and “draws” (Joh_12:32) with the “living and active” (Heb_4:12), supernatural “power” of the word of God (Rom_1:16), which produces “faith” in its hearers (Rom_10:17), through which we are made born again (1Pe_1:23).

You said that my understanding, would have one making a decision while they were still "dead" in trespasses and sin. And your right that is just what the bible says, so glad to see you got the right. And I even agree with you about Eph 2:1-2 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked...” and when we look at Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That’s really clear don’t you think. Those that were dead in there sins were able to hear the gospel message, believe it and be saved. That is the fantastic good news of the bible. We should all rejoice that God in His love has made salvation available to lost sinners. As Christ Jesus said in Mat_9:13...'I DESIRE MERCY AND NOT SACRIFICE.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Strange why you would suggest that we shout the gospel message at a corpse, they can’t do anything. That is why Christ Jesus is proclaimed to the living that are dead in their sin.

If you hold to the WCF then your claim that man is condemned because of their association with Adam really falls flat. The WCF makes it clear that your position is that God controls all things ”God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass” do you now deny this. So God has decreed all thing, not some things. So nothing has not been decided by Him. So if that is true, and you say it is, then in what way can man overrule the decrees of God. Everything that happens good or bad has been decreed. Remember “unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”. So that is why I say that under your calvinist system man does indeed have an excuse, God made me do it. Every though, desire & deed all were designed and made certain by your calvinist God. You cannot have it both ways although I am sure you will try.

You call it a hidden mystery as to whom God chose and why but that is just a cop out. God chose to save those that freely put their trust in Christ Jesus. That is the who and the why. The truth of salvation can easily be found in the bible once you remove your calvinist glasses.

As for 1 Cor. 10:13 If humans are causally determined to do everything we do, then “the way of escape” was not a possible option for those who sin. “The way of escape” on Calvinistic determinism, was nothing but an illusion! Only if man truly has the power to genuinely choose between alternatives, can we say that “the way of escape” was a possible option for those who sinned. This verse presupposes libertarian free will. It presupposes that the listener does not have to sin. He’s faced with A (succumb to temptation) or Non-A (the way of escape). He can choose either and is responsible for whichever one he chooses. As a determinist these options are not there for you.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Justpassingthrough - I would point you to post #1289 for the answer. I was responding to - Justified - but my response is applicable to your questions also. Thanks.

Please address my question.


I will not go searching through looking for your posts.

 

[rogerg]

You have just presented what has to be the most obvious misreading of scripture I have seen. I am not even sure where to start with this. You have taken clear text and read into it what your calvinism requires. To be blunt that reading is just plain wrong on so many levels.

Part 1

Gal 2:16 we are saved because we trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus, just read the text “by faith in Jesus Christ” & “justified by faith in Christ” The text does not say by Christs’ faith.
You have totally misread this text.

Nope, it is "by" the faith of Christ we believe in Christ. If you look at the Greek for that verse you will see an "in" is not present in that
part of it. However, further into it, it says "believed in Christ". So, the verse makes a distinction between the two and so it has to be read as "by the faith of Christ", not "by faith in Christ", then, later in the verse it has "believed in Jesus Christ"; the "in" is appropriate because it is included in the Greek. The end of the verse repeats the first part, that we are justified by the faith "of" Christ. Again an "in" is not present in the Greek. This must be so because we are not, and cannot be, justified by anything that we may do because we would then have become own savior, which is impossible.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

hen you go to Gal 5:22 to help you but sorry wrong again.

Faith - On the meaning of the word faith. The word here may be used in the sense of fidelity, and may denote that the Christian will be a faithful man, a man faithful to his word and promises; a man who can be trusted or confided in. Albert Barnes
‘Long suffering,’ ‘benignity,’ ‘goodness,’ ‘faithfulness’ (or fidelity), ‘meekness,’ are various forms of unselfish charity towards our fellow-men…‘faithfulness’ (not ‘faith’ towards God), is here fidelity, trustfulness in our dealings with others (‘love believeth all things,’ 1Co_13:7), Philip Schaff\
He brings forth the “fruit of the Spirit” within us (“love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control,” Gal. 5:22–23), those qualities that reflect the character of God. Wayne Grudems’ Systematic Theology

All three of these are from calvinist writers and as you can see FAITH in Gal 5:22 is not the faith to believe it is fidelity, trustfulness, it reflects the qualities of God.

It actually hard for me to believe you wrote what you did. If the Holy Spirit brings faith as a gift , then, that faith is only significant if it is a faith in Christ. All other attributes of those saved results from the presence of that faith.

I think you also suggest that faith is a work but you contradict the bible. I am not sure how many times you have to be shown that we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus. And faith is not a gift from God

You have a special gift and that is to be able to misread any text you see. You keep saying faith is a gift of God. Wrong, I looked up all seven times that is in the bible and guess what none are a gift of faith/belief. So where do you get this idea from? It has to come from your calvinist teachings because it is not in the bible.

I'm not sure which biblical translation you use but based upon your incorrect interpretation of Gal 2:16 above I suggest that you read my reply regarding that verse. You should consider changing over to a better, more faithful, translation

By the way, the only material that I read is the Bible alone, so your statement above is completely erroneous .

Regarding faith, unless it is given as a gift, ii is a work. The Bible is replete with that doctrine. Here are a few:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Jas 2:20 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Faith, if it is a true, saving faith, to be such, must have works associated to it too. But, we know that we can never be saved by our works in any way, so, the faith in view above it the above verse is Christ's faith, not ours and it includes His works.

God did indeed intervene on behalf of people. He went to the cross {Christ Jesus} and made atonement of our sins available to all. And now he convicts us of our sins {Holy Spirit}. You say that “No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son".” But that gets blown out of the water by all the times that we are told to make a choice:

Mar_1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."

Luk_24:25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!

Joh_3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

""]God did indeed intervene on behalf of people. He went to the cross {Christ Jesus} and made atonement of our sins available to all. And now he convicts us of our sins {Holy Spirit}. "

If, as you say, "Christ intervened on behalf of people", then, if His offering removed their transgression their unbelief was removed too which would be necessary since unbelief in Christ is also a sin. Therefore, for everyone covered by/under the cross, nothing else is required from/by them to receive eternal life- all has already been accomplished by Christ and forgiven by God the Father. Otherwise, the net result of your statement is that Christ's offering was incomplete or unsuccessful, which, we know, could never by true.

"Mar_1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.""

To repent and believe in the gospel is to cease completely from our works in all forms for salvation and to rest in Christ's
completed works. Who are those who can/will follow that edict? Only they who have been saved/born again and possess the
Holy Spirit, by which that repentance is given to them. Otherwise, the others will never follow that command. That repentance does not save anyone but is the result of, and a gift of, salvation but not its cause.

"Joh_3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

Same as my reply immediately above.

 

[rogerg]

Part 2

oh 6:36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

I don't understand why you chose to include this verse as it supports my position, not yours. In context, it says that unless chosen by God, no one can come to true faith in Christ. Even those who walked with Him and observed His miracles were unable to do so because they weren't of the elect/chosen.

All of these uses of BELIEVE are {Present Active} it is the person that is believing or not believing. God has given man the ability to make choices, for or against.

You're half right. The belief is theirs but only because it was given to them by God as a gift. It is not a result of their own work that they believe, but is God's.

What do you base that on? Remember they did not know about good and evil until AFTER they ate from the tree. Also you say that God bears no fault but under your view of Sovereignty {divine meticulous determination} that means that all things that have or will happen are decreed by God. Correct? Remember the LBCF & WCF both say that and I am not the one that holds to them, you are.

It depends upon how you've defined good and evil. However, they did understand not to eat from or even touch the tree since God told them not to. If they couldn't comprehend that, why did God warn them? But to directly answer your question:

[Gen 3:2-3 KJV]
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So they definitely were aware of, and understood, God's commandment to them not to eat.
As to God's responsibility for their actions, they (Adam and Eve) were the only humans ever born who were not
not blinded by sin which was how God had created them. Until the entrance of the law and its works, were they able to make correct decisions. Having the ability to make correct decisions, came the option and the possibility of making the wrong decisions.

I don't know what LBCF & WCF means?

When I asked you about your thoughts on this verse

1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I don't understand what your point is as it seems to contradict what you've been saying. The verse is saying that "God is faithful" - God's faithfulness, not ours - and that He does all that is necessary - we don't do it.

In light of your theology my question is how do you fit this into your theology? Actually I should say how CAN you fit this into your theology?

Don't know which "this" you are referring to?
My theology (actually the Bible's not mine), is simple, straightforward, and founded upon this: that everything in the Bible regarding salvation, starts with, and ends with, Christ.

Personally, I think your theology is not based upon Christ, but instead upon man's work, which has led you into all kinds of incorrect
doctrine, which up to now, you are unable to see beyond - with the wrong foundation, everything built upon it will also be wrong

 

[Justified]

Part 2



I don't understand why you chose to include this verse as it supports my position, not yours. In context, it says that unless chosen by God, no one can come to true faith in Christ. Even those who walked with Him and observed His miracles were unable to do so because they weren't of the elect/chosen.



You're half right. The belief is theirs but only because it was given to them by God as a gift. It is not a result of their own work that they believe, but is God's.



It depends upon how you've defined good and evil. However, they did understand not to eat from or even touch the tree since God told them not to. If they couldn't comprehend that, why did God warn them? But to directly answer your question:

[Gen 3:2-3 KJV]
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So they definitely were aware of, and understood, God's commandment to them not to eat.
As to God's responsibility for their actions, they (Adam and Eve) were the only humans ever born who were not
not blinded by sin which was how God had created them. Until the entrance of the law and its works, were they able to make correct decisions. Having the ability to make correct decisions, came the option and the possibility of making the wrong decisions.

I don't know what LBCF & WCF means?



I don't understand what your point is as it seems to contradict what you've been saying. The verse is saying that "God is faithful" - God's faithfulness, not ours - and that He does all that is necessary - we don't do it.



Don't know which "this" you are referring to?
My theology (actually the Bible's not mine), is simple, straightforward, and founded upon this: that everything in the Bible regarding salvation, starts with, and ends with, Christ.

Personally, I think your theology is not based upon Christ, but instead upon man's work, which has led you into all kinds of incorrect
doctrine, which up to now, you are unable to see beyond - with the wrong foundation, everything built upon it will also be wrong

Part 1



Moreover, Paul quite clearly teaches that this justification comes after our faith and as God’s response to our faith. He says that God “justifies him who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26), and that “a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (Rom. 3:28). He says, “Since we are justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). Moreover, “a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ” (Gal. 2:16). Just what is justification? We may define it as follows: Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.



Regarding Gal 2:16. You say that the reading has to be “by the faith of Christ” because "in" is not present in the text. But you now place “of” in the text and it is not in the text so that point would not hold. But even if we were to use “of” it would not help your case. When you us faith of Jesus or faith in Jesus we are both saying the fidelity, faithfulness or the character of one who can be relied on. And I am surprised that you would not agree with that as that is the view expressed in the calvinist quotes that I gave you. What I see is that you want to read into the text what you think has to be there to support your calvinism. Did you even bother to read the quotes? Tell me where did you study your Greek as you must be better than all those Calvinists that I quoted.

You suggest that I get a more faithful, translation, really and I would guess that you would be the arbiter of what that translation would be. I will give you several to chose from these are some that I have and use: Apostolic Bible Polyglot; Alford Greek NT; Berean Study Bible; English Standard Version; King James; New American Standard; New English Translation; New International Version; New King James Version; Stephanus Textus Receptus Version.

“Regarding faith, unless it is given as a gift, ii is a work. The Bible is replete with that doctrine.”

Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; NKJV

The righteousness which God imparted is based on the faith or trust we have in Christ Jesus. This righteousness, imparted to believers in salvation, enables them to live a separated, sanctified, life of holiness and service. This verse has nothing to do with God giving faith but it has everything to do with faith being a requirement for a person being accounted as righteous.

Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? NKJV

Just because the words faith and works are in the same sentence does not mean that faith is a work. If you had read this verse in context you would know what it means. Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Works will never save you but James is saying is that if you really have a saving faith you will do good works.

I read through your comments and what comes to mind is you must be joking, how could anyone misread a text that badly. You keep saying faith is a work but even your KJV says you are wrong. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. KJV Notice the righteousness is based upon the person believing. His faith is reckoned, counted, computed or calculated for righteousness. Faith in Christ Jesus, and his blood, is the ultimate ground of justification with God. Your argument that faith is a work falls flat. It is time for you to give that one up.

I said “He went to the cross {Christ Jesus} and made atonement of our sins available to all.” You again did not read and instead put in your own pre-loaded ideas into the text. Did you not see the word “available” in my comment? Your whole comment is based on an errant reading of my comment so does not warrant a reply except to say please reply to what is written not what you think was written.

I included those to because you said “No one of themselves can, or would, "trust in His son" but when you look at the verses that I showed you you can see mans free will to either accept or reject Christ Jesus. But it seems that is beyond your understanding or perhaps you just want to ignore what the bible shows.

Well since we have covered, faith is not a work already I will not go there again.

Now about Adam & Eve what did you mean by how I define good and evil? And another question who were the everyone else in your “Adam and Eve, who were created in the image of God, understood what the penalty was for themselves and everyone else when they chose to violate God's command to not eat the of the tree.” Since there was no everyone else at the time. You added text starting at “Until the entrance of the law…” are you referring to when Moses received the law or what.

 

[Justified]

Part 2


I read your comment on 1Co 10:13 and what you missed is that according to your view man can really not do anything unless God ordains it. But that is not what you find here.

If humans are causally determined to do everything we do, then “the way of escape” was not a possible option for those who sin. “The way of escape” on your determinism, was nothing but an illusion! Only if man truly has the power to genuinely choose between alternatives, can we say that “the way of escape” was a possible option for those who sinned. This verse presupposes libertarian free will. It presupposes that the listener does not have to sin. He’s faced with A (succumb to temptation) or Non-A (the way of escape). He can choose either and is responsible for whichever one he chooses. As a determinist these options are not there for you. This would also apply to the decision to trust in Christ Jesus or not. If God will allow for man to make a decision in regard to a temptation do you not think He would allow that same man to make a decision regarding his eternal destiny.

Having read over your posts I can see that you are in need of some theological direction. You have expressed views that are not biblical but when pointed out to you you just close your eyes. Perhaps in the future you will accept sound teaching from someone but as for now that does not seem possible for you to accept.