predestination vs freewill

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Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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Hey Brothers and Sisters I am still waiting for Scriptures for free will on man having free will to save himself, I would love to read them. I know they do not exsist and you do as well that is why you haven't posted them, which shows me that you are not so arrogant that you would steal the glory of the Lord, even though you do by your beliefs, but will not post up, yet you will not admot that the Scripture are the only truth.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Hey Brothers and Sisters I am still waiting for Scriptures for free will on man having free will to save himself...

Men don't save themselves, so that is just a straw man argument which means absolutely nothing. But sinners must respond to the Gospel. They must either obey or disobey the Gospel, and none are compelled to go in either direction. So read Mark 16:15,16 and see for yourself that men must freely choose to believe the Gospel or disbelieve it. There are consequences either way.

So what you have to now prove from Scripture is that those who were saved were under compulsion.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Hey Brothers and Sisters I am still waiting for Scriptures for free will on man having free will to save himself, I would love to read them. I know they do not exsist and you do as well that is why you haven't posted them, which shows me that you are not so arrogant that you would steal the glory of the Lord, even though you do by your beliefs, but will not post up, yet you will not admot that the Scripture are the only truth.
But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. Acts 19:9

2 thess 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved
.

What a terrible conception of self will you have.
And what a cop out! I suppose God made you do it :p
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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Men don't save themselves, so that is just a straw man argument which means absolutely nothing. But sinners must respond to the Gospel. They must either obey or disobey the Gospel, and none are compelled to go in either direction. So read Mark 16:15,16 and see for yourself that men must freely choose to believe the Gospel or disbelieve it. There are consequences either way.

So what you have to now prove from Scripture is that those who were saved were under compulsion.

But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. Acts 19:9

2 thess 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved
.

What a terrible conception of self will you have.
And what a cop out! I suppose God made
you do it :p

Here's is what the Word of God says John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

But thanks be to the Lord God of heaven, I do not rely on my own will to come to Him, I rely on His ord and Spirit.

John 6:43-45
Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me

I am so glad that I do not rely on any will or any attribute of mine, my brother and sister do you not see the pride in thinking that somehow you have any good thing in you that can please God for salvation. That does a way with grace, if we do anything to recieve God's grace it is a payment for the work we did to receieve it, Romans 4:1-8

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:7
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,and whose sins are covered;8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Look guys I am not try to say anything like I am better then you, all I am trying to do is to get you to understand the beauty of His love for us and by all means I am for sure NOT saying you are not saved. The Lord is beautiful and to expirence His full blessings in salvation it is a beautiful thing.

Please do not take what I am saying as me thing I am better then either of you, we are all sinners and I know who I am and by knowing that my guess is both of you are better people then me.



 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,788
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Please do not take what I am saying as me thing I am better then either of you...
That's exactly what you are doing. I notice you failed to address the Scriptures I posted, that YOU specifically asked for. However, if you really believe that the self-driven will of man is not opposed to the will of God, I would suggest that you give the Bible a read :) Your theology has God rewarding and punishing people for things they do not even do. Now that is messed up.
 

MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
201
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0
Here is a good example of suppressed free will. It is still used today to an even greater degree.

Joh:12:42:
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him,
lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh:12:43:
For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
 

MHz

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
201
1
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That's exactly what you are doing. I notice you failed to address the Scriptures I posted, that YOU specifically asked for. However, if you really believe that the self-driven will of man is not opposed to the will of God, I would suggest that you give the Bible a read :) Your theology has God rewarding and punishing people for things they do not even do. Now that is messed up.
The sins in Ge:6 were those of the fallen angels. People were being killed in an attempt to eliminate all 5 fingered people so there could be no 'seed of Eve' as mentioned in Ge:3:15. It came down to Noah and his family so that means even the wives of the sons were giants of the female variety.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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John 6:43-45 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me
This is one of the most abused and misunderstood passages of Scripture. So let's ask ourselves some pertinent questions:

1. Did the Lord command the Church to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature? Absolutely.

2. Does that mean that the Godhead desires the salvation of all mankind? Absolutely.

3. Does that also mean that God the Father (who is in the Godhead) draws all men to Christ? Absolutely. [drawn by the Father]

4. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit (who is also in the Godhead) teaches the Gospel to all who hear it? Absolutely. [taught by God]

5. But does it mean that all "learn" from the Father? NOT AT ALL.

Only those who have learned from the Father have obeyed the Gospel and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But many resist the Holy Spirit, therefore they DO NOT learn from the Father that the Son is the Savior of the world and that they must repent and believe on Him.

We cannot pull one Scripture out of context and concoct a doctrine out of that. So God the Father does indeed draw all men to Christ, but only those who learn from the Father are saved.
 

Theifam

Junior Member
Feb 16, 2018
5
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There is scripture that strongly suggests that some people are made for evil purposes. Judas was made for the purpose of fulfilling prophecy which was the betrayal by a friend of the son of God. Proverbs says, “God makes everything for himself EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL.

That is not out of context and supports the contention that not everyone is to be saved or even preached to once they reveal that they are not one of God’s saved. The Gospel says that the disciples were to wipe their feet on the mats of those who did not receive them. Matthew 10:14.

You don’t bake a cake to hope that it becomes a bicycle. When you create something you have control over what it becomes and what it’s purpose is. Why would God who all believers acknowledge has a divine plan, create humans and then allow them through their “independent” actions thwart or impair such a divine plan?

If God creates a child to become a famous doctor to cure a disease and some madman comes to the child’s school and kills the child, isn’t God’s plan thwarted?
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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That might be true to some degree, God does foresee those that will not come to know him. since they are lost anyway, they serve his purpose.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Why would God who all believers acknowledge has a divine plan, create humans and then allow them through their “independent” actions thwart or impair such a divine plan?
Well that is a part of the Mystery of God. All you have to do is study the first three chapters of Genesis. God created a beautiful and perfect universe, but gave men and angels free will -- the ability to make independent choices. Of course there would be consequences, but your reasoning breaks down right there in Genesis. What we all would have liked to see is that no one would have the freedom to disobey God, but that's not what happened. Now God wants ALL MEN -- all mankind to be saved -- but He allows many to disobey the Gospel. Of course there are very serious consequences, but the point to note is that men and women still have free will to obey or disobey the Gospel.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
I'm getting a kick out of this since this is a post from two years ago. That said, not getting back into the circle game, BUT... have some fun, everyone. Start from the beginning, and notice how many people have been banned. One thing for certain -- we canNOT say no one ever gets banned around here. lol

(And I'm pretty sure no one got banned from what they said on this thread.)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,661
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Do not criticize those who believe in predestination, for they were predestined to do so, it isn't their fault, they have no choice or ability to think for themselves

Do not criticize those who believe in free will, they were (according to the above) predestined to do so, and it makes no sense for those above to criticize them for doing so does it? Now, those who believe in free will say that they are able to and allowed by God to decide for themselves what they will or will not believe.

In essence, this argument is of no value, for the beliefs of both parties negates the reason for arguing. Thus, we must conclude that those who do continue to argue these two beliefs are predestined and have chosen to engage in disputation which is directly against the teachings of the Apostle Paul.

Hmm.................
 

Theifam

Junior Member
Feb 16, 2018
5
1
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@John you didn answer my qus directly. Bible did say God has chosen some people to be saved, didnt mention all. So my question is, if these chosen ones are going to heaven after accepting Christ, does that mean that their subsequent actions will not alter this outcome of entering heaven? And if that happens, what is the purpose of freewill?
Yes their future actions have already been factored in. God knows the past, present, and future. So He knows all of the sins that we are going to commit in our entire lifetime.
 
Jun 22, 2020
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Ive given this much thought and i can't honestly say that i know for sure...
Can anyone? There is scripture to support both views
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
was Noah saved by believing God ?

Or did he save himself by his works ?


By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Noah forst heard and believed what God told him was coming the flood to destroy the earth was coming and he believed Gods word of this hadn’t happened Noah couldn’t have built the ark and been saved

when God told him the flood was imminent he then told Noah what to do to be saved and Noah believed him .

When Noah was saved after they came out of the ark did he praise his self for the works of the ark that saved him ?

or was the first thing he did , to build an altar me offer an offering to God ?

the truth is that we won’t know if we’re predestined until the outcome , God does but we don’t do our part is to hear and believe what he said which is the gospel.

it’s like Noah it gives us faith we know what to do to escape the coming end

it’s not a good argument to pit things against each other the two principles you are competing against themselves work together for a believer to bring salvation

it’s not “your saved now nothing more to see or do or know “

it’s “ believe in and follow after the lord and we shall be saved when the time comes “

we need to hear what he said or we will never understand salvation Jesus came to preach salvstion to believers so we have to listen to him and accept his teachings and simply learn and let him conform us to his image

 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.
Good day, Ivon,

The word 'proorizó' translated as Predestination, means to mark out beforehand, i.e. before creation. This however does not mean that God is going to save us no matter what we do, for those that God chose before the world began must still have faith from beginning to end. An example of predestination is found twice in Revelation 13:8 and 17:8

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain." - Berean Study Bible

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come." - NIV

Notice that in the two scriptures above, that those who worship the beast will be those whose names that were not written in the book of life which took place before the world began. What those scriptures also reveal is that those whom God predestined, their names were written in the book of live before the world began.

Now, some might say that God is being unfair by choosing to save some but not others. However the fact is that, God would be just if He allowed the whole world to be condemned because we are all guilty of sin and no one deserves to be saved. Therefore, no one is worthy to receive salvation, but it is by God's Sovereign choice that God chose to save some. To be clear, God is the One who did the choosing and the saving and that before the world began. This is also supported by when Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This statement would infer that not everyone is draw. Paul also spoke of our predestination by using Israel as an example of God's Sovereign choice:

===============================================================

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

============================================================================

A simple comparison of God's choosing, would be like a man standing out on a street corner and handing out $20 bills, but only to those he chose to give it to. Is the man being unfair to those who are not receiving $20? No! Because it is his money and no one in that group did anything to earn it. The man is simply giving the money to those whom He chose which is what God has done in His Sovereignty by choosing to save some. It is not unfair to those whom God did not choose because they are guilty of sin.

Those whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began, are not predestined and therefore the Father will not drawn them to His Son. Another example of predestination can be found in the following scriptures:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

And

"To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.

In the two examples above, the Gentiles were "appointed" to believe and obtain eternal life. In the other example, those who of Israel who did not believe, it states that they were appointed to stumble and not believe. Both demonstrate God's predestination.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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One is predestined once they are "in Christ." My destination has been determined, the adoption is going to happen now that I am in Christ. How did I get in Christ? By believing the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for my sins.

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine when you allow Scripture to define it.
The first step in an adoption is to choose the child, (notice that the child does not choose the Father) in which God did before he formed the world. The second step in the adoption is to pay the legal fees for the child, in which Jesus did on the cross. The third and final step is to bring the child home, in which Jesus is going to do at the last day.

If you are in Christ, you have been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which opened your understanding to believe. Believing is not the cause of ones new birth, it is the product of the new birth.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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@John you didn answer my qus directly. Bible did say God has chosen some people to be saved, didnt mention all. So my question is, if these chosen ones are going to heaven after accepting Christ, does that mean that their subsequent actions will not alter this outcome of entering heaven? And if that happens, what is the purpose of freewill?
We do not choose to accept Jesus until after Jesus has accepted us. Jesus accepted us by his death on the cross which paid for every sin that we will ever commit, therefore securing our eternal inheritance.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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The fact that He knows ahead, whats the piont of giving us freewill that wont alter the outcome anyway? Isnt it like a false sense of freewill?
God gave mankind the freedom to choose out his changes here in this world, but he did not give them the freedom to choose their eternal destination. All mankind chose not to seek God, that is why, by his foreknowledge of this, that he choose a great number of them to adopt as his children and to live with him in heaven,