Preterism, Futurism, Historicism 3 Schools of Interpretation

[GaryA]

Please show me a bible verse....

What do you believe to be the time frame of the fulfillment of this verse?

Isaiah 65:

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

~

In Revelation 20 - if there are no mortal souls living during the Millennium - if there are only the resurrected immortal - who-or-what will those who will reign with Christ reign over?

If there are only the resurrected immortal in the Millennium, who will Satan deceive and gather together to do battle - whom the Lord will destroy?

And, if they "compassed the camp of the saints" - does that mean they are not saints? And, does that mean that they are lost/unsaved people?

Will there be immortal lost/unsaved people during the Millennium?

No - there will not - however, there will be both saved and lost mortal people - who are physically born, live, and die - during the Millennium.

 

[GaryA]

Jesus comes with His reward.
The first resurrection is before the millennium and the saved are with Jesus from that point on.

True; however, that does not mean that all who live during the Millennium are saved and immortal.

Those that are part of the second resurrection are the lost.

There are both saved and lost at the second resurrection.

Do you really believe that no one - not even one - will be (become) saved during the Millennium?

The unrighteous will be judged for their evil deeds.

Of course. But, that is not the whole complete every-detail-included story.

If you are not with Jesus during the millennium you are lost.

I can agree or disagree with this statement - depending on what particular sense-of-definition you apply to the word 'with'.

~

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This verse is referring to the time of the second resurrection at the final Judgment.

Do you see that there are both saved and lost represented here?

 

[GaryA]

the catholic church has never had anything to do with the Saints

Well - they *did* torture and kill many of the Saints for hundreds of years during the Dark Ages...




(I know what you meant - and, I can agree with that.)

 

[GaryA]

Indeed the second reasurection is when most of the souls of this world will be judged.. Only true Christians will take part in the first reasurection and of course their judgement will only include rewards and eternal life with The Lord Jesus..

I believe that the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and the "Great White Throne Judgment" are one-and-the-same. So, I believe that all souls will be judged at that time - you, me, and everyone else...

I see nothing in scripture that justifies believing/thinking that there is a separate judgment just for first resurrection Saints.

 

[TMS]

True; however, that does not mean that all who live during the Millennium are saved and immortal.


There are both saved and lost at the second resurrection.

Do you really believe that no one - not even one - will be (become) saved during the Millennium?


Of course. But, that is not the whole complete every-detail-included story.


I can agree or disagree with this statement - depending on what particular sense-of-definition you apply to the word 'with'.

~

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This verse is referring to the time of the second resurrection at the final Judgment.

Do you see that there are both saved and lost represented here?

Verse 29 above talks about 2 resurrections

The resurrection of damnation and the resurrection of life.

Only two.....

Revelation talks about 2, only 2 resurrections

One at the beginning of the millennium and one at the end.

Rev 20:4-6 4 ....
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Luk 14:14 ....for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Only 2 ....the just and the unjust.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ's people are raised at His coming

Those that are part of the first are raised incorruptible

1Co 15:52-53
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus clearly comes before the millennium

And the saved are all raised at His coming

The second resurrection happens after the millennium... and the second death....

 

[TMS]

I think every Christian should also be a Paulinist

We should all hold the word, bible as the only source of truth

But the lens that you read the word with will change many verses.

 

[GaryA]

This is a futuristic teaching

How so?

But is not in line with the bible.

The idea that there will be no mortal people during the Millennium is not in line with the Bible.

Jesus's blood can only cover our sins while He is high priest. Probation will close when Jesus stop mediating for us.
He will come as a king not as a priest.

Psalms 110:

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

1 Timothy 2:

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 8:

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The mediation of Christ for us does not only apply to salvation. Do you pray?

Jesus will never stop mediating for us. It is "part of the deal" - the covenant - forever.

Do you really think that the covenant just simply "stops" at the Second Coming of Christ? Do you not realize that it is 'forever'?

 

[TMS]

I believe that the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and the "Great White Throne Judgment" are one-and-the-same. So, I believe that all souls will be judged at that time - you, me, and everyone else...

I see nothing in scripture that justifies believing/thinking that there is a separate judgment just for first resurrection Saints.

I said the same... all are judged before Jesus returns because He needs to know who is saved and resurrected in the first resurrection. So He knows who will be with Him for the millennium, and so He know who will be given a new body, incorruptible.

If everyone has not been judged at this point His coming would not be just or fair.

Justice will be exercised for the unjust at the second resurrection.

 

[GaryA]

When Jesus come to raise the saints there is no changing of sides....

The just remain just and the unjust remain unjust.

Judgement may still happen in regards the punishment of the unjust but the unjust will not become saved after this time.
Jesus has ceased to offer His blood. Probation has closed.

I partially agree and partially disagree. The part I disagree with is the idea that there cannot be any saved mortals during the Millennium.

But the lens that you read the word with will change many verses.

What lens are you reading with?

 

[TMS]

The part I disagree with is the idea that there cannot be any saved mortals during the Millennium.

where is the millennium spent with Jesus?

Historicism is what i see as the truth and i will show why in the next few posts...

 

[TMS]

Loyola’s Jesuit Order soon spawned two able scholars whose views would at last arrest and reverse the Protestant Reformation.
Luis de Alcazar, and

They needed to take the world away from seeing the papacy as the antichrist... Most of the world were independently coming to see the papacy as this evil power and they were 99% historicists.

The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (born in the year 37 A. D.), believed that the little horn of Daniel 8 (and perhaps also the little horn of Daniel 7, though we are not sure) was Antiochus Epiphanes, a Seleucid ruler who governed from 174 till 163 B. C. In this, Josephus shared the view of the LXX (I Maccabees 1:10) and many other Jewish scholars of his day. In the second century A. D., an enemy of Christianity named Porphyry, corresponded with the early church father Tertullian and tried to persuade him that Josephus’ view was correct. Needless to say, Porphyry was unsuccessful. But in the late 16th century the view which Tertullian had rejected became the accepted teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Luis de Alcazar, Jesuit from Seville, Spain, picked up on the idea of Josephus and the LXX. From 1569 onward Alcazar worked to counteract the Protestant view of the prophecies. He wrote a 900-page commentary on the book of Revelation titled: Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi [An Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse]. The book was published posthumously in 1614. In this volume, Alcazar affirmed that Daniel and Revelation were fulfilled in the distant past. His system of prophetic interpretation came to be known as preterism. Alcazar believed that the entire book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first six centuries of the Christian era and that Nero was the predicted Antichrist.

By relegating the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to the distant past, Alcazar argued that they could not apply to the Papacy in the 16th century. If Alcazar’s view was correct, then the Protestant view was gravely wrong. Alcazar’s alternative method of prophetic interpretation removed the incriminating finger from the papacy and pointed it at Antiochus and Nero!! Tragically, many Protestants soon embraced Alcazar’s unorthodox hermeneutic.

just like Nebuchadnezzar didn't like God's prophesy (which pointed to an end) and went about to change the times by making a complete golden image so did the catholic church.. they changed the way people would veiw the prophecy to allow them to rule longer. Not everyone followed and most stayed faithful to the historical hermeneutic or method. (at that point).

 

[GaryA]

Verse 29 above talks about 2 resurrections

2 "resurrections" - same time frame (same 'event')

Revelation talks about 2, only 2 resurrections

One at the beginning of the millennium and one at the end.

Correct. Two different 'events' - the first resurrection before the millennium and the second resurrection after the millennium.

Only 2 ....the just and the unjust.

This is where I believe a lot of folks go astray into error... (based on an easy but invalid assumption)

While it is true that the first resurrection only involves saved people, it is not true that the second resurrection only involves lost people.

~

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Oops!

The John 5 verses are talking about the second resurrection time frame and not the first resurrection time frame.

The words 'resurrection of life' and 'resurrection of damnation' in those verses are referring to two different 'modes'/'types' of resurrection and not two different resurrection 'events'.

 

[GaryA]

I said the same... all are judged before Jesus returns because He needs to know who is saved and resurrected in the first resurrection. So He knows who will be with Him for the millennium, and so He know who will be given a new body, incorruptible.

If everyone has not been judged at this point His coming would not be just or fair.

Justice will be exercised for the unjust at the second resurrection.

I disagree with your assessment given above.

It is not 'Justice Day' - it is 'Judgment Day' - you are incorrect about when people are 'judged'.

All will be 'judged' on 'Judgment Day' - post-Millennium - then - 'Justice' will be carried out afterward...

 

[GaryA]

where is the millennium spent with Jesus?

On Earth.

Historicism is what i see as the truth and i will show why in the next few posts...

I 100% agree with you about historicism - it is my view as well. Just remember - before you get motivated to try to argue me into the grave - that I agree with you much more than I disagree with you.

 

[TMS]

continuing from above.. 51
Is this perhaps the reason why liberal Protestantism has become practically indistinguishable from Roman Catholicism in its theology and worship style? Could this be the reason why liberal Protestants are reaching across the abyss to clasp the hand of Catholicism? Having cast aside the compass of a proper prophetic hermeneutic, liberal Protestants cannot but wander in a maze of uncertainty and confusion.

Loyola’s Jesuit Order soon spawned two able scholars whose views would at last arrest and reverse the Protestant Reformation.
Luis de Alcazar, and Francisco Ribera

The other Jesuit scholar: Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), from Salamanca, Spain was a brilliant student who specialized in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. He received a doctorate in theology from the University of Salamanca and joined the Jesuit Order in 1570 when he was just 33 years old. By the time of the Reformation, the Roman Empire had crumbled into ten kingdoms and an evil spiritual empire (Papal Rome) had risen among these kingdoms to rule over them. Thus, the Reformers had the benefit of historical hindsight to help them identify the little horn, the Man of Sin, the Beast, the Harlot and the Abomination of Desolation. Now, back to Ribera. This Jesuit scholar capitalized on the incomplete views of the early church fathers (the deciples). In 1590 he published a 500-page commentary on the Apocalypse where he expounded upon the prophecies of Revelation using the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism.
The main tenets of Ribera’s eschatology are “ascribed to a literal three and a half years reign of an infidel Antichrist, who would bitterly oppose and blaspheme the saints just before the second advent. He taught that Antichrist would be a single individual, who would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, be received by the Jews, pretend to be God, and conquer the world— and all in this brief space of three and one-half years!”

Bellarmine was an Italian Cardinal and also one of the ablest Jesuit apologists. He was a powerful speaker and lectured to large audiences. Bellarmine picked up where Ribera left off.

The essence of Bellarmine’s argument is that the Papacy cannot be the Antichrist for three reasons:
• The Antichrist prophecies call for an individual but the papacy is a system.
• The time periods must be literal but the papacy has existed for centuries.
• Antichrist will sit in the Jerusalem Temple, but the popes are ruling in Rome.

For about 200 years after Ribera and Bellarmine, Protestantism remained true to its prophetic principles. In fact, the great Protestant expositors of Bible prophecy defended the historicist method during this period, tooth and nail. But then there was a shift, slow at first but then with a vengeance!! In the early 19th century some Protestant expositors began to make overtures to Rome.

Thus the counterfeit hermeneutic of literalistic futurism resulted in an ecumenical spirit [as will happen at the end as well]. The historicist hermeneutic had given Protestantism its impetus and the courage to separate from Rome. But futurism now stalled the progress of Protestantism and led it to seek a reunion with Rome.

 

[GaryA]

However - keep telling the history - folks need to understand how and why the other two views came about...

 

[SabbathBlessing]

2 "resurrections" - same time frame (same 'event')


Correct. Two different 'events' - the first resurrection before the millennium and the second resurrection after the millennium.


This is where I believe a lot of folks go astray into error... (based on an easy but invalid assumption)

While it is true that the first resurrection only involves saved people, it is not true that the second resurrection only involves lost people.

~

John 5:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Oops!

The John 5 verses are talking about the second resurrection time frame and not the first resurrection time frame.

The words 'resurrection of life' and 'resurrection of damnation' in those verses are referring to two different 'modes'/'types' of resurrection and not two different resurrection 'events'.

John 5:28 is talking about the first resurrection

Lets look at Rev 20 closer

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


In the first resurrection only the saints (saved) will either meet Jesus in the clouds if alive or the dead in Christ will rise and meeting Him in the clouds and will be with Jesus during the 1000.

This is what happens after the 1000 years, which is what we do not want to be part of

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are.And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

If we are not part of the first resurrection there is no other chance. All decisions are final

Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [a]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[TMS]

All will be 'judged' on 'Judgment Day' - post-Millennium - then - 'Justice' will be carried out afterward...

Justice for the saints has already happened at the coming.
they have recived their reward, Eternal life with Jesus.

Justice for the unsaved happens at the second resurrection. The resurrection of damnation. They are damned to death..

Jesus covers the saints with His blood and they are free from all sin. No condemnation is applied to the saved because of the blood of Jesus. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Judgement day is today..... we are being judged by Jesus. Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
When Jesus comes, how does He know who is saved and who is not saved?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I believe that the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and the "Great White Throne Judgment" are one-and-the-same. So, I believe that all souls will be judged at that time - you, me, and everyone else...

I see nothing in scripture that justifies believing/thinking that there is a separate judgment just for first resurrection Saints.

This indicates a judgment at his return.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27​

​

 

[GWH]

Easy. Revelation says when the 7th trumpet (the last trumpet) begins to blow the mystery of God will be complete. Paul said the mystery of God is Christ in the gentiles built into a holy temple. So when the last living stone is placed in the temple (mystery of God complete) the last trumpet will sound and Christ will return with his resurrected saints

Oh, if that is all RV says, then no problem, but I think it says a lot more than that.
Does everyone agree that the RV has finally been explained?