Pride goes before destruction
- Thread starter InSpiritInTruth
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Observations:
A substantial number of people believe in sinless living and reject eternal security. Regardless whether they are right or wrong, they are obviously sincere. Some longstanding teaching has been promoting this doctrine for a long time.
A substantial number of people believe in eternal security. Regardless whether they are right or wrong, they are obviously sincere. Some longstanding teaching has been promoting this doctrine for a long time.
While each of these groups obviously believes the other to be mistaken; presumption of good faith on both sides would likely foster a more productive discussion.
Heated rhetoric never persuaded anybody of anything; but does an excellent job of promoting bad feelings and strife.
If we honestly believe that bad feelings and strife honor and serve Jesus; we should by all means continue.
Otherwise we might do well to tone down the rhetoric on both sides of the issue.
A substantial number of people believe in sinless living and reject eternal security. Regardless whether they are right or wrong, they are obviously sincere. Some longstanding teaching has been promoting this doctrine for a long time.
A substantial number of people believe in eternal security. Regardless whether they are right or wrong, they are obviously sincere. Some longstanding teaching has been promoting this doctrine for a long time.
While each of these groups obviously believes the other to be mistaken; presumption of good faith on both sides would likely foster a more productive discussion.
Heated rhetoric never persuaded anybody of anything; but does an excellent job of promoting bad feelings and strife.
If we honestly believe that bad feelings and strife honor and serve Jesus; we should by all means continue.
Otherwise we might do well to tone down the rhetoric on both sides of the issue.
J
Luke 18:9-14 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner! I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Duly noted Marc, and I believe each side tends to misrepresent the other side just to make the other side look foolish instead of just debating the other in a peaceful way by using the scriptures. But what I want you to notice Marc is that the OSAS clan or eternal security clan are the main ones who are running back and forth from thread to thread in packs for the sole purpose of attacking certain posters.
It is not hard to see to everyone here who wants to see that the OSAS clan are the ones who are making most of the personal attacks. So to me, this in of itself does not speak very well for their doctrines and faith. They by their own words are truly exhibiting that they are indeed still in the flesh, and not abiding in the Spirit as written. I know you side with their views Marc, and I do not agree with many of your views either. But you are different from them because you do not make it a habit to speak hateful words towards others. I commend you for that. And that is what makes you different than them, even though you hold to the same doctrine.
Trees are known by their fruits, which is words and works. Many hateful words are spoken by them, let their own hateful words be the judge.
It is not hard to see to everyone here who wants to see that the OSAS clan are the ones who are making most of the personal attacks. So to me, this in of itself does not speak very well for their doctrines and faith. They by their own words are truly exhibiting that they are indeed still in the flesh, and not abiding in the Spirit as written. I know you side with their views Marc, and I do not agree with many of your views either. But you are different from them because you do not make it a habit to speak hateful words towards others. I commend you for that. And that is what makes you different than them, even though you hold to the same doctrine.
Trees are known by their fruits, which is words and works. Many hateful words are spoken by them, let their own hateful words be the judge.
Ok back to the OP, Lets see if we can see the connection here to the mountains being made low in the haughty of spirit being made low.
Here's the Bible meaning of Haughty....
to rise, rise up, be high, be lofty, be exalted
Let's look at some verses on haughty...
Proverbs 18:12
Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Psalm 131:1Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
Isaiah 10:33
Behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
Now notice the wording here in connection with the words found in Isaiah 40
Isaiah 24:4
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Now to Isaiah 40:6-8 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:[SUP]7 [/SUP]The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.[SUP]8 [/SUP]The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Now compare to the testimony of James...
James 1:9-11 "Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways."
So hopefully some will now see and hear what the Spirit is saying about the mountains being made low, and the valleys being exalted.
Here's the Bible meaning of Haughty....
to rise, rise up, be high, be lofty, be exalted
- to be high, be set on high
- to be raised, be uplifted, be exalted
- to be lifted, rise
Let's look at some verses on haughty...
Proverbs 18:12
Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Psalm 131:1Lord, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.
Isaiah 10:33
Behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
Now notice the wording here in connection with the words found in Isaiah 40
Isaiah 24:4
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Now to Isaiah 40:6-8 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:[SUP]7 [/SUP]The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.[SUP]8 [/SUP]The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Now compare to the testimony of James...
James 1:9-11 "Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways."
So hopefully some will now see and hear what the Spirit is saying about the mountains being made low, and the valleys being exalted.
D
James was a good one, mountains and valleys, lifted up ones and humble ones
James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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You beat me to the next part I was fixin to show. LOL Yes, the parable of the mountains and valleys is shown there, it is not talking about literal mountains and valleys but people.
Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Yes, the parable of the mountains and valleys is shown there, it is not talking about literal mountains and valleys but people.Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
D
Heres a few also, staying mostly with Pride but even that which pertains to destruction in respects to the children of men, or as how he is able to abase the proud, for example in Nebby
Dan 4:36 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
He is able to abase (or humble) take what is high (and lifted up) and bring him low
Just as it says,
Prov 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
It also says,
Psalm 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
As it says,
Prov 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty,
and before honour is humility.
And,
Prov 22:4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
And the fear of the LORD is....
Prov 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:
pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pride is mentioned first and foremost there, in the hating of evil itself (which the LORD also hates)
James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Even the day of the LORD shall be upon the proud in heart (Isaiah 2:12 see below)
Prov 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: (which was Sodom's sin, Ezek 16:49)
though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Prov 28:25 He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife:
but he that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat.
This one is really pressed upon in every place
Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon everyone that is proud and lofty,
and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Even here with Jeremiah (and Mal 4:1)
Jerm 50:31 Behold, I am against thee,O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts:
for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.
Theres so many verses on this really.
Dan 4:36 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
He is able to abase (or humble) take what is high (and lifted up) and bring him low
Just as it says,
Prov 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
It also says,
Psalm 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
As it says,
Prov 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty,
and before honour is humility.
And,
Prov 22:4 By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life.
And the fear of the LORD is....
Prov 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil:
pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Pride is mentioned first and foremost there, in the hating of evil itself (which the LORD also hates)
James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Even the day of the LORD shall be upon the proud in heart (Isaiah 2:12 see below)
Prov 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: (which was Sodom's sin, Ezek 16:49)
though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Prov 28:25 He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife:
but he that putteth his trust in the LORD shall be made fat.
This one is really pressed upon in every place
Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon everyone that is proud and lofty,
and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Even here with Jeremiah (and Mal 4:1)
Jerm 50:31 Behold, I am against thee,O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts:
for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.
Theres so many verses on this really.
D
You beat me to the next part I was fixin to show. LOL Yes, the parable of the mountains and valleys is shown there, it is not talking about literal mountains and valleys but people.
Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Yes, the parable of the mountains and valleys is shown there, it is not talking about literal mountains and valleys but people.Matthew 23:12
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Peace and God bless you
James 1:11
For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
Matthew 13:3-6
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."
Revelation 16:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."
For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
Matthew 13:3-6
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away."
Revelation 16:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."
D
Heres more on pride in various places
James 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low:
because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
James 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat,
but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth,
and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth:
so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
James 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Luke 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.
Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
James 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep:
let your laughter be turnedto mourning,
and your joy to heaviness.
Prov 12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop:
but a good word maketh it glad.
The same is shown here in respects to a spirit of heaviness
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to give unto them beauty for ashes,
the oilof joy for mourning,
the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
So again James says,
James 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep:
let your laughter be turned to mourning,
and your joy to heaviness.
Just as it says
Prov 12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop:
but a good word maketh it glad.
Or how loftiness of a man be made low
Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
and the haughtiness of men shall be made low:
and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Shows God can abase the proud
Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
He has respect unto the lowly (Psalm 138:6) See Psalm 136:23, Luke 1:48, Rom 12:16 also
James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
Here likewise... (even at the same time Nebby says)
Dan 4:36 At the same time my reason returned unto me;
and for the glory of my kingdom,
mine honour and brightness returned unto me;
and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me;
and I was established in my kingdom,
and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Just as before honour (which returned to him) is humility (Prov 18:12)
Even as it says...
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be brought low
Just as it says,
James 4:6... God resisteth the proud,
but giveth grace unto the humble.
Same sorta thing...
Oba 1:4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle,
and though thou set thy nest among the stars,
thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
1 Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride
he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
I overposted you on the last one, thats pretty cool, I gotta look at that.
James 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low:
because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
James 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat,
but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth,
and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth:
so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
James 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Luke 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger.
Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
James 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep:
let your laughter be turnedto mourning,
and your joy to heaviness.
Prov 12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop:
but a good word maketh it glad.
The same is shown here in respects to a spirit of heaviness
Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion,
to give unto them beauty for ashes,
the oilof joy for mourning,
the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
that they might be called trees of righteousness,
the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
So again James says,
James 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep:
let your laughter be turned to mourning,
and your joy to heaviness.
Just as it says
Prov 12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop:
but a good word maketh it glad.
Or how loftiness of a man be made low
Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
and the haughtiness of men shall be made low:
and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Shows God can abase the proud
Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,
all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment:
and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
He has respect unto the lowly (Psalm 138:6) See Psalm 136:23, Luke 1:48, Rom 12:16 also
James 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
Here likewise... (even at the same time Nebby says)
Dan 4:36 At the same time my reason returned unto me;
and for the glory of my kingdom,
mine honour and brightness returned unto me;
and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me;
and I was established in my kingdom,
and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Just as before honour (which returned to him) is humility (Prov 18:12)
Even as it says...
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be brought low
Just as it says,
James 4:6... God resisteth the proud,
but giveth grace unto the humble.
Same sorta thing...
Oba 1:4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle,
and though thou set thy nest among the stars,
thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.
1 Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride
he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
I overposted you on the last one, thats pretty cool, I gotta look at that.
John 16:20-22[SUP]20 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you."
[SUP]21 [/SUP]A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you."
When I talked at Theology Online (and spoke out against OSAS), some pretty hateful words were said to me there that would never fly here. Nothing here has changed all that much (except the intensity of those attacks). I have been attacked and I did not seek to set out to attack any one particular person. I set out to attack the belief or the wrong doctrine. Yet, people make it personal. Why? Because Jesus said that this would happen. Bless them that persecute and speak all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake.
3
What some do not understand is that when you attack what I believe and call it evil that is a personal attack on me.
When you say OSAS is an evil belief, you are saying all who believe OSAS are evil.
To end your post with "I love you" does not change the fact that you have attacked me personally because you attacked my belief.
I know those who attack OSAS will deny what I have just said .
The difference is that I am mature enough to just let it go and not threaten to have them banned.
When you say OSAS is an evil belief, you are saying all who believe OSAS are evil.
To end your post with "I love you" does not change the fact that you have attacked me personally because you attacked my belief.
I know those who attack OSAS will deny what I have just said .
The difference is that I am mature enough to just let it go and not threaten to have them banned.