problem related to praying in tongues

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Jun 20, 2022
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Read it as "when the COMPLETE arrives". The Bible is complete and perfect. End of story. Many translations have "complete" or "completeness".
Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.

Your Cessation Doctrine is less than 300 years old. That means from Paul's Letter, until John Calvin, including majority of Church Fathers, EVERYONE BELIEVED the Perfect to Come is when we SEE Jesus!

That speaks Volumes.

Why would anyone believe in a 300 year old Doctrine, that No One Else Believed in before, and those People were closer to Paul than John Calvin?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I believe the only people who initially received the Holy Spirit were the 12 apostles.
For several reasons, I also believed it happened in the Temple, not in the upper room.
Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like
the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of
them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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rude but also true
I had missed a few pages of this discussion... all I saw was her dressing down of this whole thread...
I see now what she was referring to.. and I actually sort of agree with her.
I spoke a little harshly to her, and regret it.
One of these days, I'll actually think before I reply... maybe. (work in progress, remember?)
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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I've heard some religious idiots preach garbage myself, but the fact remains that neither the Assemblies of God, nor any other MAJOR Pentecostal or Charismatic group HAS EVER tied the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" with Being SAVED. I often wondered what drove Gene Scott off the rails, and haven't bothered with his daughter to see what she teaches these days.
some who knew Gene Scott back in the day say he was always off
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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I had missed a few pages of this discussion... all I saw was her dressing down of this whole thread...
I see now what she was referring to.. and I actually sort of agree with her.
I spoke a little harshly to her, and regret it.
One of these days, I'll actually think before I reply... maybe. (work in progress, remember?)
And ruin the fun?
 

Beckie

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2022
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May 9, 2023
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Connecticut
YES! If we all don't agree with you 100%, then we definitely are not being taught by the Spirit... we are all apostate, and un-Biblical...
I agree completely.... you NEED to go back to your "normal" forum... we certainly cannot live up to your high standards.
And this rudeness from a supposed Christian. Another reason I am leaving.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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I can actually prove that the New Testament is not perfect.
It's easy to compare the Tanakh to the Septuagint and find all of the translation errors, which makes the KJV Bible sketch, but the only thing that could make the New Testament actually COMPLETE and PERFECT, is if we had the Hebrew Version of the Gospel of Matthew.
According to Ancient historians of the day, Church Father's and Disciples of John and Paul, the Hebrew Version of Matthew is greatly different than the Greek, jotted by Memory of the original Hebrew Text into the Greek.

Church Fathers have actually wrote...They TRIED their Best hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So, the Bible really is not Complete without the Hebrew Version of Matthew that Jerome, most of the Church Fathers, Disciples of both John and Paul claim existed.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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And this rudeness from a supposed Christian. Another reason I am leaving.
perhaps you should read my other comments.... I admitted that I spoke prematurely, and harshly... I thought you had left already or I would have apologized to you... so here it is.... I'm sorry I spoke rudely to you. mea culpa
 
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It's easy to compare the Tanakh to the Septuagint and find all of the translation errors, which makes the KJV Bible sketch, but the only thing that could make the New Testament actually COMPLETE and PERFECT, is if we had the Hebrew Version of the Gospel of Matthew.
According to Ancient historians of the day, Church Father's and Disciples of John and Paul, the Hebrew Version of Matthew is greatly different than the Greek, jotted by Memory of the original Hebrew Text into the Greek.

Church Fathers have actually wrote...They TRIED their Best hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So, the Bible really is not Complete without the Hebrew Version of Matthew that Jerome, most of the Church Fathers, Disciples of both John and Paul claim existed.
Papias affirmed the statement that Matthew wrote down sayings of Jesus in Hebrew. Origen took this to mean that Matthew originally wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. Jerome claims to have read the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew.

Papias included a brief account in his Expositions regarding the composition of Matthew: “Matthew collected (συνετάξατο, sunetaxato) the oracles (τὰ λόγια, ta logia) in the Hebrew language (Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, Hebraidi dialektōi) and each interpreted them (ἡρμήνευσεν, hērmēneusen) as best he could.”

So, no one has a perfect Version of Matthew, Papias said, they did best they could.

So, without the Hebrew Version of Matthew, and knowing the Greek Versions aren't the COMPLETE 100% ACCURATE TRANSLATION, means the Bible is InComplete!

So, the Perfect to Come is when we SEE Jesus!
 
Jun 20, 2022
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Papias included a brief account in his Expositions regarding the composition of Matthew: “Matthew collected (συνετάξατο, sunetaxato) the oracles (τὰ λόγια, ta logia) in the Hebrew language (Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, Hebraidi dialektōi) and each interpreted them (ἡρμήνευσεν, hērmēneusen) as best he could.”


...as best he could...is the answer to = translating the Hebrew into Greek.

What does Papias mean here when his answer to the New Greek Translations is...as best he could?

Just how FAR OFF are these Greek Versions of Matthew?
 
Jun 20, 2022
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Actually, I have been saying the Septuagint is a horrible translation of the Hebrew.
Papias, just shows us that even those translating the Greek Version of Matthew could not understand completely the Hebrew of Matthew.

Any time I hear/read/notice/told this is Greek translation of Hebrew, whether Old Testament or New, I run away from it :devilish:
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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So, no one has a perfect Version of Matthew, Papias said, they did best they could.
How do you know they did not interpret it absolutely correctly? Have you read the Hebrew version of Matthew's gospel? Do you not believe that the Spirit guides those that translate the word of God?
 
Jun 20, 2022
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How do you know they did not interpret it absolutely correctly? Have you read the Hebrew version of Matthew's gospel? Do you not believe that the Spirit guides those that translate the word of God?
This is Papias' answer to Your Very Question You just asked me:

Papias included a brief account in his Expositions regarding the composition of Matthew: “Matthew collected (συνετάξατο, sunetaxato) the oracles (τὰ λόγια, ta logia) in the Hebrew language (Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, Hebraidi dialektōi) and each interpreted them (ἡρμήνευσεν, hērmēneusen) as best he could.”

So, Papias saw the Hebrew Version of Matthew, and tells us, the Greek versions are "best they could do. " in other words, not 100% Accurate!
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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This is Papias' answer to Your Very Question You just asked me:

Papias included a brief account in his Expositions regarding the composition of Matthew: “Matthew collected (συνετάξατο, sunetaxato) the oracles (τὰ λόγια, ta logia) in the Hebrew language (Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, Hebraidi dialektōi) and each interpreted them (ἡρμήνευσεν, hērmēneusen) as best he could.”

So, Papias saw the Hebrew Version of Matthew, and tells us, the Greek versions are "best they could do. " in other words, not 100% Accurate!
Or, it could simply mean they did the best they could, and they are 100% accurate. The way I understand it, Hebrew does not translate exactly into Greek, the same way Greek does not translate exactly into English.
Either translation requires the inspiration and oversight of the Spirit.
I don't believe that God carved the Word in stone, and any change in a written word is anathema... I completely believe in the accuracy of the Bible, even if some words are different. The meaning is still there, and 100% accurate.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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Or, it could simply mean they did the best they could, and they are 100% accurate. The way I understand it, Hebrew does not translate exactly into Greek, the same way Greek does not translate exactly into English.
Either translation requires the inspiration and oversight of the Spirit.
I don't believe that God carved the Word in stone, and any change in a written word is anathema... I completely believe in the accuracy of the Bible, even if some words are different. The meaning is still there, and 100% accurate.
That is correct. The Hebrew only has 22 Letters to its Alphabet and does not match the Greek at all in many crucial meaning words. No doubt the and, if, it, us, you, but, is, owe small simple words are indeed absolutely word for word accurate. But in the key words, we to this very day have several possible Greek Words for ONE Hebrew Word. That is room for 70% ERROR!
 
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And that is where we must rely on the divine guidance of the Spirit on the translators.
Using your logic, we have no accurate scripture...
We also have hand written Testimony of Jerome, who had access to the entire Collection of Materials, who claimed he personally has read it several times and this is what he said about the other Greek Versions.

Jerome (374-420 A.D.) claim to have seen the Hebrew gospel of Matthew, he said he had translated it and on several occasions he quoted from it (On Famous Men 2 & 3).
A much earlier writer, Papias, who was a disciple of John the apostle, stated that Matthew recorded the sayings of Jesus in Hebrew and everyone translated them as best he could (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History III, 39, 16)