Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

[zone]

We Lutherans let the words of Jesus stand without arguing about their possibility,or trying
to explain how they are true.

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

that's what Jesus said. He said THIS IS.

if He had said "This is symbolic of my body given for you", then, again.... we "Lutherans [would] let the words of Jesus stand without arguing about their possibility,or trying to explain how they are true."

it's a little like this passage:

Acts 2
15"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS

we believe Peter said exactly what he was led to say, by the Holy Spirit. at Pentecost.

not...this is LIKE what Joel prophesied...or this is the beginning of what Joel prophesied. he said THIS IS THAT.

it's just simpler to believe God said exactly what He meant say.

if Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper, and connected it DIRECTLY to the new Covenant, we just take Him seriously.

what's the problem?

don't you believe Peter meant what he said?

Acts 2
15"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS

...the last days of the Jewish commonwealth's time of decision. the coming of the promise, and the time of jacob's trouble...

 

[Digital_Angel_316]

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Cor 11:4

Mark 13:22-24 (NIV) "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time."

1 Tim 4:1-3,6-7 (Phi) God's Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of demons, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh... You will be a faithful minister of Christ Jesus if you remind your church members of these things. You will show yourself as a man nourished by the message of the true faith and the sound teaching he has followed. But steer clear of all these heathen old wives' tales.


Gal 1:6-9 (Phi) I am amazed that you have so quickly transferred your allegiance from him who called you by the grace of Christ to another "gospel"! Not that it is another gospel, but there are men who are upsetting your faith with a travesty of the gospel of Christ. Yet I say that if I, or an angel from Heaven, were to preach to you any other gospel than the one you have already heard, may he be damned! You have heard me say it before and now I say it again--may anybody who preaches any other gospel than the one you have already heard be a damned soul!

2 Cor 11:13-15 (Phi) "God's messengers?" They are counterfeits of the real thing, dishonest practitioners masquerading as the messengers of Christ. Nor do their tactics surprise me when I consider how Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is only to be expected that his agents shall have the appearance of ministers of righteousness--but they will get what they deserve in the end.


2 Pet 2:1-3 (NIV) But there were false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies... Many will follow their shameful ways and bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.


1 Tim 6:3-5 (Phi) This is the sort of thing you should teach and preach, and if anyone tries to teach some doctrinal novelty and does not follow sound teaching (which we base on our Lord Jesus Christ's own words and which leads to Christlike living), then he is a conceited idiot! His mind is a morbid jungle of disputation and argument, things which lead to nothing but jealousy, quarreling, insults, and malicious innuendoes--continual wrangling, in fact, among men of warped minds who have lost their real hold on the truth but hope to make some profit out of the Christian religion.

Rom 16:17-18 (NIV) I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and who put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (NIV) ...command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

2 Tim 4:2-5 (NIV) Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. (Titus 2:15a)

The Body of Christ, functioning properly, should be excising these false teachings and standing against the "wolves" (Titus 1:9). But somehow Satan has duped us into believing that if we obey God's instructions, we are the ones "causing division", instead of the false prophets and teachers (wolves) we are commanded to rebuke (Titus 1:11-2:1). Satan has attacked the church's "immune system", and we accept the wolves, who take advantage of the flock, in as "brothers" (2 Jn 7-11).

 

[Stephen63]

Got any links? Sources?
At least give us a wikipedia link, or a link to a geocities home page that hasn't existed since 1999.
Anything?

Belief and Practice - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod - Fellowship in the Lord’s Supper

What does the Lutheran church believe about
the Lord’s Supper?
The Lutheran church believes, teaches and confesses that
the Lord’s Supper (1)is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus
Christ,under the bread and wine,given to us Christians to eat
and to drink.We hold that the bread and the wine in the
Supper are the true body and blood of Christ and that these are
given and received into the mouths of all who commune.
Those who believe the promise: “Given and shed for you for
the forgiveness of sins,”receive forgiveness of sins,life and salvation.
This promise, along with the bodily eating and drinking,
is the main thing in the Sacrament.
The Lutheran church rejects and condemns incorrect
understandings of the Lord’s Supper,such as the view that the
sacrifice of the Mass delivers man from his sins,or that the
substance of the consecrated bread and wine is actually
changed into the body and blood of Christ. (2)We also reject and
condemn the view that in the Lord’s Supper the true body and
blood of Christ is not received by the mouth of the communicants,
under the bread and wine,but is received only spirituallyin the heart by faith,or that the bread and wine are only symbols
of the far-distant body and blood of our Lord.

Did I just read that right? First it is then it isn't? Can someone explain this?

 

[1still_waters]

I wonder if folks realize how much of an influence secularism has had on perceptions of communion/Lord's supper?

 

[zone]

I remind them of the Scriptures:

1 John 2:1 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Hebrews 4:14-16 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Romans 5:20 (KJV) [SUP]20 [/SUP]Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 6:1-4 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

EVERY CHRISTIAN needs to know that when they sin, they can IMMEDIATELY go to prayer, directly confessing their sins to the Father & repenting while their heart is softened by conviction. If they wait till their meeting with their pastor, They could become calloused & hardened. By then, it's just going thru the motions, not true repentance.

Lutherans confess our sins daily
privately to the Lord.

SOMETIMES.....people don't FEEL forgiven...they doubt that sin can be or has been forgiven. they are bothered.

you're not suggesting your congregants never feel this way? because that wouldn't be true.

so....again....IF SOMEONE who has confessed their sins to Christ.....but still frets, comes to you, do you go to The Throne of Grace WITH THEM?

do you pray with them? and for them?

and do you then, as an ordained minister (you said God told a prophet you were His minister; and you had dreams and visions that you believe proved you were CALLED BY GOD HIMSELF to office)....as an under-shepherd ORDAINED for the office NOT extend absolution to that person as Christ's MINISTER to his flock (since they are struggling to BELIEVE?) - reminding them that they are forgiven?

if not, i really am grateful i don't have a pastor like that.

what you don't seem to understand is that Lutherans do not believe as Catholics do - that you are not forgiven IF you do not confess to a priest (and do things to show it).

so please get informed, so we may fairly discuss our widely differing beliefs.
as i am attempting to do on the other thread - without your assistance apparently.
why you're not posting what you accept as pentecostal doctrine and theology i don't know.

but i can do LCMS apologetics if you prefer.
i know you'll disagree.

you believe in 2 baptisms (or more) apparently, for example.
stuff like that.

baptism with tongues is proof of something...that stuff.
so purleeze don't play the we don't add to the gospel or have MIDDLEMEN.
you go for laying on of hands and apostolic succession, apparently!

 

[RickShafer]

I'm tired of the arguing.

 

[zone]

I wonder if folks realize how much of an influence secularism has had on perceptions of communion/Lord's supper?

you mean everything is symbolic?
except da gifs?

sorry.

 

[zone]

I'm tired of the arguing.

well....it's not hard to know what LCMS teaches.
the OP was a joke hit and run filled with false assertions not backed up.
and the rest is MMA.

should i not try to explain what LCMS really practices?

 

[maxwel]

Did we really make an entire thread just to argue with Zone?

Wow.
I wish I was popular.
: )

 

[zone]

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Cor 11:4

Mark 13:22-24 (NIV) "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time."

1 Tim 4:1-3,6-7 (Phi) God's Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of demons, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh... You will be a faithful minister of Christ Jesus if you remind your church members of these things. You will show yourself as a man nourished by the message of the true faith and the sound teaching he has followed. But steer clear of all these heathen old wives' tales.


Gal 1:6-9 (Phi) I am amazed that you have so quickly transferred your allegiance from him who called you by the grace of Christ to another "gospel"! Not that it is another gospel, but there are men who are upsetting your faith with a travesty of the gospel of Christ. Yet I say that if I, or an angel from Heaven, were to preach to you any other gospel than the one you have already heard, may he be damned! You have heard me say it before and now I say it again--may anybody who preaches any other gospel than the one you have already heard be a damned soul!

2 Cor 11:13-15 (Phi) "God's messengers?" They are counterfeits of the real thing, dishonest practitioners masquerading as the messengers of Christ. Nor do their tactics surprise me when I consider how Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is only to be expected that his agents shall have the appearance of ministers of righteousness--but they will get what they deserve in the end.


2 Pet 2:1-3 (NIV) But there were false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies... Many will follow their shameful ways and bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.


1 Tim 6:3-5 (Phi) This is the sort of thing you should teach and preach, and if anyone tries to teach some doctrinal novelty and does not follow sound teaching (which we base on our Lord Jesus Christ's own words and which leads to Christlike living), then he is a conceited idiot! His mind is a morbid jungle of disputation and argument, things which lead to nothing but jealousy, quarreling, insults, and malicious innuendoes--continual wrangling, in fact, among men of warped minds who have lost their real hold on the truth but hope to make some profit out of the Christian religion.

Rom 16:17-18 (NIV) I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and who put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

1 Tim 1:3-4 (NIV) ...command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

2 Tim 4:2-5 (NIV) Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. (Titus 2:15a)

The Body of Christ, functioning properly, should be excising these false teachings and standing against the "wolves" (Titus 1:9). But somehow Satan has duped us into believing that if we obey God's instructions, we are the ones "causing division", instead of the false prophets and teachers (wolves) we are commanded to rebuke (Titus 1:11-2:1). Satan has attacked the church's "immune system", and we accept the wolves, who take advantage of the flock, in as "brothers" (2 Jn 7-11).

View attachment 61569

hey DA....long time no see.
prolly somebody from every denom (and the non-denom denoms) would say amen....thinking your post is about their position.
since this is on an LCMS thread, and so we understand each other - are Lutherans the wolves and false brothers you're referring to?

zone.

 

[Huckleberry]

if they speak to the Pastor before the Communion service, and are believed to a baptized christian confessing Jesus is the Christ according to the scriptures they make take Communion.

So a non-member basically has to stand trial and be
Judged by a jury of one as to whether or not he is worthy?

A "Pastor" who does that has metaphorically booted
Christ off of His Throne and assumed it for himself.

That's a place I wouldn't want to be.

 

[Stephen63]

Got any links? Sources?
At least give us a wikipedia link, or a link to a geocities home page that hasn't existed since 1999.
Anything?

Belief and Practice - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod - Fellowship in the Lord’s Supper (Closed communion)

“This passage in Corinthians strikes a crushing blow at
unionism. To admit those who believe differently to our
Communion,and so to our church fellowship, is a contradiction
in itself. For those who approach the same altar together
profess to be one—one in all points of Christian doctrine and
practice—while in reality they disagree. It would be shameful
hypocrisy on our part if we would have those who actually
profess a different faith than we do join us at the Lord’s
Altar”(Stoeckhardt,1 Corinthians, p.60–61).

Another teacher of our church had this to say about why
the Lord’s Supper is an expression of church fellowship:
“The Holy Supper is one of the marks,one of the banners
of the church,one of the seals of the church’s doctrine
and faith (Rom.4:11; see 1 Cor.10:21; Ex.12:48). In
whichever church one receives the Holy Supper,one is
confessing that church and its doctrine.There cannot be
a more inward,brotherly fellowship than that into which
one enters with those in whose fellowship he receives
the holy Supper. . . . Even one who confesses the Real
Presence cannot ordinarily, except in the case of death,
be admitted if he is and wants to remain,not a member
of our orthodox church,but rather a Roman Catholic,
Reformed,so-called Evangelical or Unionist,Methodist,
Baptist, in short,a member of an erring fellowship.For
the Sacrament,as it is a seal of faith,is also the banner of
the fellowship in which it is administered” (Walther,
Pastoral Theology, p.110–111,149).

If I get this right, just a guess, it seems to me that under no circumstances will a Luthern partake in communiom with any other denomination, regardless of the event.

 

[zone]

Did we really make an entire thread just to argue with Zone?

Wow.
I wish I was popular.
: )

hi Max!
hope you're well.

eh....it happens.
popular? cough cough. not.

 

[Stephen63]

Did we really make an entire thread just to argue with Zone?

Wow.
I wish I was popular.
: )

Have you read my posts at all?

 

[unclefester]

I first found this out about this synod when I attended this church back in the 60's. Several years ago a friend asked me to go to bible study at this synod, and the minister who led it verified this was what they believed in.

I did a google search today, to be sure I was reporting correctly, and that search sent me to their home page. Takes a lot of digging there about their beliefs to find this. There are many sites that tell of the upset in the Lutheran Church when other synods found they could not be a part of the Missouri Synod any longer, with several hours work needed to verify all this.

I went through so many sites, spent so many hours at this, I think it would be easier for you to do your own search. I hope you will report on this, too.

What a lovely gesture. But before I follow your request, would you mind telling us all what denomination your church falls under ? Being the researcher that I am, who knows what I might dig up and gladly share with you and all here ... and then disappear

 

[zone]

So a non-member basically has to stand trial and be
Judged by a jury of one as to whether or not he is worthy?

A "Pastor" who does that has metaphorically booted
Christ off of His Throne and assumed it for himself.

That's a place I wouldn't want to be.

Huckleberry:

what's with the drama?

"stand trial and be Judged by a jury of one as to whether or not he is worthy?"

ask anyone who isn't LCMS what happens if they CHAT with Pastor (who will give an account for souls in his care) before the service and he believes they confess the true Christ - not satan's brother who lives on KOLOB - see if they are happily invited to take communion.

anyways....i'm pretty happy with LCMS policy.

i wouldn't want to ignorantly take communion and end up sick or dead having sinned against the Lord's BLOOD & BODY.


read the warning again.

if somebody you didn't know showed up at your church and unannounced approached the pulpit to give a PROPHECY....what would you do, as a Pastor?

 

[Stephen63]

I wonder if folks realize how much of an influence secularism has had on perceptions of communion/Lord's supper?

I had supposed you were challenging this thread/opposition with any true posting of evidence to this thread. Am I'm wrong?

Got any links? Sources?
At least give us a wikipedia link, or a link to a geocities home page that hasn't existed since 1999.
Anything?

 

[RickShafer]

It's all personal.
Everything is personal.
Because God is a spirit.
Jesus told the samaritan woman the same.
It's not where you go, it's who you know.
God is a spirit, and they that worship Him will worship Him in spirit and truth.

 

[PennEd]

Is Zone's church a cult? That would explain alot, especially the extreme antisemitism.

 

[maxwel]

Have you read my posts at all?

Oh Wow!

You're supposed to read before you comment???

Does anyone else know about this??

: )