Prophesying Forbidden

[presidente]

There are gifts of the Holy Spirit not included exclusively in 1 Cor 12-14.

There are other charismata in Romans 11. Charismata are for both Jews and Gentiles. This is clear from scripture. Joel predicts and outpouring of the Spirit upon 'all flesh' with the handmaidens, etc. of the Jews prophesying, but Gentiles are benefits of this as they are benefits of God's grace in many other areas.

Since the church will be gone from the earth there would be no one else to speak in tongues.

In II Thessalonians 1, the church is still here when Jesus returned executing wrath on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in them that believe.

But you don't have a case for prophecy and tongues ceasing now. If they are still here in the future, it does not make sense to say they cease, and uncease. If they cease and uncease, whose to say they didn't revive in 400 AD or the 1600s or 1800's or 1900's? Your theory of tongues and prophecy ceasing and being revived during the tribulation is based on nothing.

Among the gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 three are stated to end in 1 Cor 13:8 although they are still in operation in the apostolic church in 1 Cor 14. We could discuss the differences in the prophecies which are done away in 1 Cor 13:8 and the prophecy of 1 Cor 12:10 but that is more than a light discussion.

How could you have any evidence at all for these being different types of prophecy?

You are wrong in your interpretation. Every kindred, tongue and kind are equally saved by the blood of Christ but salvation does not change ethnicity. While the Gentile church is receiving the blessings God promised to Israel the church will not prevent God from fulfilling His promises to Israel which are specific to Israel.

Why don't you quit assuming things I do not say. I believe God has a specific plan for Israel. But God is not excluding Israel from salvation and His plans now. Now, there is a remnant of Israel who still believes. Blindness is in part, and one day the nation will be saved. So you should not write about Israel as if God is not dealing with them now at all.

Israel because of their apostacy cannot receive the blessing God has for them.

The remnant of Israel who believe receive it now. Read Romans 11.

 

[notuptome]

There are other charismata in Romans 11. Charismata are for both Jews and Gentiles. This is clear from scripture. Joel predicts and outpouring of the Spirit upon 'all flesh' with the handmaidens, etc. of the Jews prophesying, but Gentiles are benefits of this as they are benefits of God's grace in many other areas.

Not even close to the truth. Gentiles will not be included in the handmaids and old men of Joel 2.

In II Thessalonians 1, the church is still here when Jesus returned executing wrath on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in them that believe.

Wrong again. The church is not appointed to wrath. Israel is the subject of the great tribulation. Church is with Jesus in heaven.

But you don't have a case for prophecy and tongues ceasing now. If they are still here in the future, it does not make sense to say they cease, and uncease. If they cease and uncease, whose to say they didn't revive in 400 AD or the 1600s or 1800's or 1900's? Your theory of tongues and prophecy ceasing and being revived during the tribulation is based on nothing.

Scripture teaches that they cease and restart according to the will of God. Look at the so called revival of the 1900's and the answer is obvious.

How could you have any evidence at all for these being different types of prophecy?

Scripture and sound doctrinal exegesis.

Why don't you quit assuming things I do not say. I believe God has a specific plan for Israel. But God is not excluding Israel from salvation and His plans now. Now, there is a remnant of Israel who still believes. Blindness is in part, and one day the nation will be saved. So you should not write about Israel as if God is not dealing with them now at all.

Then quite attempting to present it in your replies. God is allowing Israel to treasure up a full measure of His wrath against their apostacy just as He has multiple times in their history.

The remnant of Israel who believe receive it now. Read Romans 11.

I have read Romans 11 and have not arrived at the same conclusion that you have reached. Romans 11 is speaking about Isaiah 66:8 which is a future promise God has made to them. Israel must be gathered form among the nations of all the earth. It will take a mighty moving of God to accomplish the gathering of Israel into the land.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Not even close to the truth. Gentiles will not be included in the handmaids and old men of Joel 2.

That wasn't even my argument per se. But the outpouring of the Spirit is characterized by such manifestations, and it is also for them that are afar off. We see this in I Corinthians, where gifts are for former idol worshipers who are now in Christ.

Wrong again. The church is not appointed to wrath. Israel is the subject of the great tribulation. Church is with Jesus in heaven.

This really doesn't have much to do with cessationism. If you say tongues and prophecy ceased, it makes no sense to try to say they will come back for seven years. There are pre-trib dispensationalists who are not cessationists.

The church is not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ. God's wrath is not against the saints. It will not be against the saints described in the time of tribulation in the book of Revelation. It is not against the church who is here when Jesus comes back and executes judgment on them that believe not in II Thessalonians 1.

We have another thread on this. I see that speculation is very important to you. Your interpretation of I Corinthians 13 is built on insisting on a guess-work interpretation, and your eschatology is built on a theory also. Revelation does not show the church being raptured before the tribulation, and neither do other scriptures. But it is part of a pre-trib theory. You have a theory that does away with tongues and prophecy and revives them later, but the scriptures do not teach such a thing.

Scripture teaches that they cease and restart according to the will of God.

Show the scriptures then. Where does it say these gifts start again?

Then quite attempting to present it in your replies. God is allowing Israel to treasure up a full measure of His wrath against their apostacy just as He has multiple times in their history.

Some of Israel is saved. God saves Jews/Israelites who believe in Jesus, too.

 

[Blade]

Reluctant to chime in here. They way I see this is.. no matter what site a Christian forum is they have the right to set the rules. So the word of God is true.. But when someone comes up saying lets say "thus says the lord". Did you know what they USE to ask that person? "who are you? Who knows you? How long have you walked in what you preach/teach"? Then they would all go pray for a very long time. There is great wisdom in that. Yet its not done much any more.. it at all.

Prophet OT would say "when did the spirit leave me to you?" lol. So NT days.. when ever the 12 spoke you listened. They have earned given the right to speak. To many today its all about them self. God is never in a hurry. Anything everything He does is perfect timing. If its of God the door will open or window and it always grows. And the fruits of the spirit are always seen. He is the perfect gentlemen. He will never go against your my or some Christian site or Church so forth so on. What we GIVE is what HE will use. Be it some or ALL! As As I believe I pray I didn't offend. Not good with words forgive me.

Remember if its of God.. relax.. be at peace. TRUST HIM! A Hes GOD? Your FATHER! HELLO! He WILL open the door.. not sure why I keep saying that lol

 

[presidente]

Reluctant to chime in here. They way I see this is.. no matter what site a Christian forum is they have the right to set the rules.

Sure, in a sense they do. I used to participate there but I decided not to renew when I saw some new requirements that I believe a Christian should not agree too.

So the word of God is true.. But when someone comes up saying lets say "thus says the lord". Did you know what they USE to ask that person? "who are you? Who knows you? How long have you walked in what you preach/teach"? Then they would all go pray for a very long time.

Who is they?

If someone prophesies that does not necessarily mean he ministers from a pulpit. It seems likely that some prophets were unknown to the one hearing the prophecy. Possibly the one who prophesied to Josiah for example or the man of God from Judah.

Prophet OT would say "when did the spirit leave me to you?" lol.

Said Zedekiah, one of the yes man court prophets Ahab had in the court throwing the Lord's name around after Elijah killed the prophets of Baal--to Micaiah whose vision ran contrary to his prophecy.

God is never in a hurry. If its of God the door will open or window and it always grows. And the fruits of the spirit are always seen. He is the perfect gentlemen.

I have heard the saying that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman but if he is not a man then he is not a gentleman. The Spirit of (or from) God had Saul prophesy naked and prophesy all night while David escaped. Would a gentleman do such a thing.

He will never go against your my or some Christian site or Church so forth so on.

I am not sure what you mean, but I see no reason God might not oppose the actions of individuals or organizations men label as 'Christian'.

 

[Dino246]

I have heard the saying that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman...'.

Methinks that phrase is used mostly by those who fancy themselves gentlemen (or -women), and desire to shut down what they cannot control.

 

[garee]

Obviously not; that's a silly idea. Since you refuse to learn from me, I suggest you do your own homework on the question.


It's best not to use terms that you don't understand. Instead, go and learn what they mean.


You keep repeating your error. It's tiresome.

Not understand? Or refuse to look at and search the scriptures as for silver or gold to see if sealed with 7 circular seals? I am quite sure with the meaning of "circular reasoning". The circle as a perfect law is not influenced by the philosophies of men .The non circle reason law.

Two apposing laws. Which master to complete the circuit of the will of God from end to end .? Philosophy or God 's perfect law

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. Psalms 19:6-7

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[presidente]

Not understand? Or refuse to look at and search the scriptures as for silver or gold to see if sealed with 7 circular seals? I am quite sure with the meaning of "circular reasoning". The circle as a perfect law is not influenced by the philosophies of men .The non circle reason law.

Two apposing laws. Which master to complete the circuit of the will of God from end to end .? Philosophy or God 's perfect law

His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. Psalms 19:6-7

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Evidence that you can turn just about anything into a nonsensical allegorica interpretation of scripture.

 

[Dino246]

Not understand? Or refuse to look at and search the scriptures as for silver or gold to see if sealed with 7 circular seals? I am quite sure with the meaning of "circular reasoning". The circle as a perfect law is not influenced by the philosophies of men .The non circle reason law.

Two apposing laws. Which master to complete the circuit of the will of God from end to end .? Philosophy or God 's perfect law

You really don't have a clue what "circular reasoning" means. Stop using your ridiculous made-up definition and humble yourself to learn something new. Until you do, you are only displaying your ignorance.

 

[CS1]

You really don't have a clue what "circular reasoning" means. Stop using your ridiculous made-up definition and humble yourself to learn something new. Until you do, you are only displaying your ignorance.

I'm glad I have those people on ignored good luck Dino246

 

[garee]

If someone prophesies that does not necessarily mean he ministers from a pulpit. It seems likely that some prophets were unknown to the one hearing the prophecy. Possibly the one who prophesied to Josiah for example or the man of God from Judah

Yes, we minister from the spirit of faith, as it is written as it works in us individually.The unseen good Master. One is our Master in heaven not seen. I don't think the location as you said a pulpit would affect it..

You really don't have a clue what "circular reasoning" means. Stop using your ridiculous made-up definition and humble yourself to learn something new. Until you do, you are only displaying your ignorance.

Your ignorance or mine? Humble yourself under his as a perfect law not subject to change . The ends meet. Its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. The circle will not be broken . As our stronghold and defender it keeps the philosophies of men as enemies of God out.

Sends them searching for no end. The non circular form of reasoning.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 

[garee]

I'm glad I have those people on ignored good luck Dino246

It would take much more than luck . The circle (law) would first have to be broken. What goes up must come down. Thou shalt not eat. Thou will surely die .

 

[Dino246]

Your ignorance or mine? Humble yourself under his as a perfect law not subject to change . The ends meet. Its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. The circle will not be broken . As our stronghold and defender it keeps the philosophies of men as enemies of God out.

Sends them searching for no end. The non circular form of reasoning.

Garee, you're being stubborn. I introduced the term "circular reasoning" in our conversation, many months ago. I know what it means; you do not, despite my having told you and providing links. Use a search engine like Google, or look it up in an encyclopedia. You are just making yourself look and sound stupid by persisting in your ignorance.

 

[garee]

Evidence that you can turn just about anything into a nonsensical allegorica interpretation of scripture.

Not everything. Just the things that without parables hiding the signified gospel understanding. Christ spoke not .Not one time when he did speak a parable to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. Using the temporal things seen to walk by faith the unseen eternal . If a person refuses to use the tools. They simply remain parables with no hidden meaning. The hidden Manna spoken of in Revelation 2.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Like the whole book of Revelation is a continuing parable between the things seen and the eternal things of God , using the temporal unseen things to give us the spiritual eternal understanding according to the "prescribed way of rightly dividing" .It is found in the opening verse. Not only inspired but signified. Giving us freely a living understanding. Setting the stage for the whole book.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Its really simply. The key as that seen the temporal represent the unseen Gospel. It as it is written looseness the gates of hell freeing the souls from the everlasting judgment of God signified as a literal chain . . a unending judgment, signified by a bottom less Pit for a unknow amount of time under the Sun . .

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The literalist has a different veiw. I call Hollywod style .Drama 101

 

[garee]

Garee, you're being stubborn. I introduced the term "circular reasoning" in our conversation, many months ago. I know what it means; you do not, despite my having told you and providing links. Use a search engine like Google, or look it up in an encyclopedia. You are just making yourself look and sound stupid by persisting in your ignorance.

The bible is sufficient. to understanding the circular reasoning of God. Not the absurdity of atheism . No god no tress pass. . If it feels good do it.

Yes I I proved from scripture many months ago that laws as circular reasoning cannot be broken . .Its the philosophies of man that are broken as in so much where there is no law. . . . there is no trespass.

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[Dino246]

The bible is sufficient. to understanding the circular reasoning of God. Not the absurdity of atheism . No god no tress pass. . If it feels good do it.

Yes I I proved from scripture many months ago that laws as circular reasoning cannot be broken . .Its the philosophies of man that are broken as in so much where there is no law. . . . there is no trespass.

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My goodness; you have gone off the deep end. This has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with atheism, and there is no such thing as "circular reasoning of God"!

 

[Dino246]

Not everything. Just the things that without parables hiding the signified gospel understanding. Christ spoke not .Not one time when he did speak a parable to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. Using the temporal things seen to walk by faith the unseen eternal . If a person refuses to use the tools. They simply remain parables with no hidden meaning. The hidden Manna spoken of in Revelation 2.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Like the whole book of Revelation is a continuing parable between the things seen and the eternal things of God , using the temporal unseen things to give us the spiritual eternal understanding according to the "prescribed way of rightly dividing" .It is found in the opening verse. Not only inspired but signified. Giving us freely a living understanding. Setting the stage for the whole book.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Its really simply. The key as that seen the temporal represent the unseen Gospel. It as it is written looseness the gates of hell freeing the souls from the everlasting judgment of God signified as a literal chain . . a unending judgment, signified by a bottom less Pit for a unknow amount of time under the Sun . .

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The literalist has a different veiw. I call Hollywod style .Drama 101

PLEASE take a class in basic English. You are out of your league trying to discuss biblical theology when you don't even understand the finer points of the language. It's painful trying to figure out what you're saying. Stop saying "Sorry; just take a class.

 

[CS1]

It is presumptuous to state that the future time is when we are with Christ. There will be no need for gifts of the Holy Spirit when we are in our glorified bodies. Israel will find them essential during the end of the great tribulation period which is what Joel 2 is telling us.

The perfect is most probably the completed canon of scripture. When the revelation through scripture had been completed the primary tool for evangelism and sanctification was with the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

"the perfect is most probably" =meaning: I am not sure of what I just said. you only have 1 verse found in 1cor 13:10.
The error in this thinking or understanding is you have to make the Word of God not perfect when HE said it. meaning the Old Testament. Or it is incomplete is the other error. The canonizing of the scriptures happened when? both the Old and NEW were completely canonized by 250 AD. You have one to think the gifts of the Holy Spirit were ceased at this time? LOL wow. from 250AD to present, there were no gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation anymore as taught by Paul in 1cor chapter 12 through 14. That would be a very big uses of the gift of prophesying if that were true. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pride prevents people like this from admitting their error. .

 

[garee]

"the perfect is most probably" =meaning: I am not sure of what I just said. you only have 1 verse found in 1cor 13:10.
The error in this thinking or understanding is you have to make the Word of God not perfect when HE said it. meaning the Old Testament. Or it is incomplete is the other error. The canonizing of the scriptures happened when? both the Old and NEW were completely canonized by 250 AD. You have one to think the gifts of the Holy Spirit were ceased at this time? LOL wow. from 250AD to present, there were no gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation anymore as taught by Paul in 1cor chapter 12 through 14. That would be a very big uses of the gift of prophesying if that were true. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pride prevents people like this from admitting their error. .

The perfect or complete = two laws . The letter of the law the temporal as that which the eyes see (literature) it kills and the law of faith the eternal not seen it brings new unseen life . Those two parts working as one perfect law sets the prisoners free as it works in those who do believe

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

We have the prefect law with no laws missing by which we could know him more intimately, called cannon.. No secret loved ones on the side.
. .

 

[notuptome]

"the perfect is most probably" =meaning: I am not sure of what I just said. you only have 1 verse found in 1cor 13:10.
The error in this thinking or understanding is you have to make the Word of God not perfect when HE said it. meaning the Old Testament. Or it is incomplete is the other error. The canonizing of the scriptures happened when? both the Old and NEW were completely canonized by 250 AD. You have one to think the gifts of the Holy Spirit were ceased at this time? LOL wow. from 250AD to present, there were no gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation anymore as taught by Paul in 1cor chapter 12 through 14. That would be a very big uses of the gift of prophesying if that were true. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pride prevents people like this from admitting their error. .

I am not making the common error of imputing to the word perfect a modern English definition. Perfect in this case refers to the completeness of the word of God not the Godly nature of the word. A good portion of the word of God had not yet been given when these verses were written.

To argue with you is quite pointless. We are certainly in the time when men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears. You cannot admit error you refuse to see.

For the cause of Christ
Roger