Pros and Cons Speaking in Tongues

[ladylynn]

Just goes to show if we expect the things of God to be experienced apart from faith., we will not be seeing much of the things of God. There comes a time in our Christian lives where we have to accept that God is bigger than what we first learned in the Bible and that there is even MORE in the Bible we have yet to see and learn. He opens His Word up to us even more. There is always more to see and learn from Him. Stepping out onto the water without a human life jacket is required.

 

[BenFTW]

If scripture exhorts me to pray for an interpretation of the tongues I just spoke so that others may be edified that means that there exist a form of tongues that requires interpretation and is not just heard/understood by the listener. Agreed? This point must be understood. The language isn't understood by any present and therefore requires interpretation. If there is no interpretation scripture is clear. Be silent, and be in order.

Sure I can speak in tongues and speak Spanish to a person who understands that language, but that is just another aspect of the gift of tongues. It isn't the full picture, the full realization of what can be done through tongues. The gift of tongues clearly at certain times requires interpretation and therefore reveals another aspect of tongues that must be understood. Yes, it can be used for evangelism, to speak to people in a language you don't understand. Have faith, speak and let the Lord guide your words in their language to speak to them. VVonderful and awesome. However, that is only one aspect of how the gift operates.

It has many personal uses, including fellowship with the Lord. Singing in the Spirit, prayer between you and the Father, intercession for another, and so on. People might find this one particular but since the Lord speaks through the gift to a congregation when it is interpreted that means the Lord can speak to you through tongues. To get to that conclusion you'd have to go beyond Pentecost and understand the gift has varied uses, and all uses glorify God. How can it possibly be of the devil when it only increases your intimacy with the Lord and brings exhortation and encouragement to those around you? A house divided cannot stand.

 

[garee]

You can think what you wish Roger, but it is you who is ignoring the entire chapter of 1 Co 14. And when I reconcile them for you, you instead choose your own interpretation. You are correct that tongues was a sign for Israel and that's a cool revelation, but 1 Co 14 also says that tongues speaks only to God which blows your teaching out of the water.

Acts 2, they were NOT teaching the people or speaking to them. It's in there clearly, they were praising GOD... God gave the Jews the interpretation of their tongues so they could hear them in their own languages. He let them listen in.

It makes sense on so many levels. Notice for instance Acts 2 stresses that EVERY man heard it in his own language. Think about it Roger, you have 100+ people all speaking different languages and acting "drunk". And you think every man is able to understand them isn't a miracle? Have you ever been with loud drunk people? Go get 5 people who speak in different languages all taking at one time and YOU try to make out what they are saying. Now multiply that by 20.

And I think it's time that I set some boundaries with you. I do not appreciate you telling me that I am ignoring Scripture for my own interpretation when it is you who are not bringing up 1 Co 14. I do not ignore Scripture, I magnify it, I reconcile it. I do not leave out 1 Co 14 and it's clear instructions. I pray about things with Holy Spirit until He gives me clarity. I honor you and I thank you for your input, but leave your comments out about me out of this. If you want to discuss Scripture I am fine, but you have made these snide comments to me several times. And I'm done with them.

I'm not mad or angry at you, but I just want to be clear from this point on.

And until you can reconcile ALL of 1 Co 14 with your interpretation. And use more than 1 Scripture to show that the gifts are ceased. I suggest you stop telling people they are ignoring Scriptures.

The gift is not reasoned as if it was Peter speaking, interpreting to the hearts of men who spoke not his language ..

No such thing as a sign gift attributed to the believer. Signs are for those who believe not.(no faith) prophecy for those who do believe (have faith) to the salvation of their soul . We walk by faith (the unseen, eternal) Not by sight (that seen the temporal). Lips moving does not mean tongues have been translated into another person dialect.

Remember who made man mouth and who puts the words on his lips. . As new creatures of Christ what do we have that we have not freely received? Boasting we have not freely received it only shows men think of men above that which is written.to day tongues is used to prove a person has the Holy Spirit.

There is no outward sign as a personal sign and wonder that could come from sinners.

All prophecy as revelations from God has ceased and it includes the manner of prophecy called tongues.

There is a danger in attributing the works of God to men.

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 1Co 4:6

 

[RickyZ]

As an aside....

For those of you who think I am being a little rough on Roger (undergrace?), please understand that we go waaay back. I focus on him for 3 reasons -

1. I always find it amusing when those who are in such obvious error arrogantly cling to their error in the face of correction; so for this I poke a little fun at him

2. I take exception when someone in error works so hard to promote and spread their error to others, especially newborns seeking the truth

3. I take umbrage when someone is so far in error as to speak and spread blasphemes (and I'm not one to proclaim blasphemes lightly) and will get in their face in the attempt to show them their wrongs and turn them from disaster.

But, alas, one must be open to correction and Roger CLEARLY is not. Maybe it's time to put him on ignore again.

Anyway, I apologize to those who think I'm being unnecessarily mean. There is a reason I deal with him so strongly, and it goes far beyond the pages of this one thread.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled argument - I mean debate

 

[UnderGrace]

You are a prime example of someone that is solid on the grace of God for salvation but you are spiritually immature when it comes to the supernatural aspect of the Holy Spirit.

You have been shown multiple times the scriptures but you keep looking at them with your natural mind and thus you cannot see what is happening in the scriptures on this subject.

You have no idea what kinds of languages were spoken in Corinth when they were speaking in tongues and you do not know every language or dialect that was spoken throughout the history of man - let alone what languages angels speak in heaven. 1 Cor 13:1

You or anyone else telling me tongues is not for today is exactly like an atheist trying to tell me with his natural mind that Jesus is just a figment of my imagination.

While I know this is not written to me I must respectfully have to disagree here, many solid Bible scholars, preachers and pastors have carefully examined all scripture and in context and have concluded that that the gift of tongues was only for the period of the apostles to help the church get underway.

It would be very doubtful to say that these men also only used there natural mind.

You do realize that tongues happened at a certain point in time again in the 1800s in the United States and from there began an entire movement.

Well then, I would say that I am also a solid example of grace and spiritual immaturity because I do not pray in tongues.

Please reconsider this because I see nowhere in scripture where speaking in tongues in connected to spiritual maturity. If there is please find it because I have missed it.

 

[UnderGrace]

As an aside....

For those of you who think I am being a little rough on Roger (undergrace?), please understand that we go waaay back. I focus on him for 3 reasons -

1. I always find it amusing when those who are in such obvious error arrogantly cling to their error in the face of correction; so for this I poke a little fun at him

2. I take exception when someone in error works so hard to promote and spread their error to others, especially newborns seeking the truth

3. I take umbrage when someone is so far in error as to speak and spread blasphemes (and I'm not one to proclaim blasphemes lightly) and will get in their face in the attempt to show them their wrongs and turn them from disaster.

But, alas, one must be open to correction and Roger CLEARLY is not. Maybe it's time to put him on ignore again.

Anyway, I apologize to those who think I'm being unnecessarily mean. There is a reason I deal with him so strongly, and it goes far beyond the pages of this one thread.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled argument - I mean debate

I appreciate the insight and explanation, and I know that it does put those that believe in these gifts on the defensive to some degree and do understand that having been there on other topics, however I still think it is best that not anyone make it personal.

Yes back to the debate, I actually think this has been a more civil discussion than many others.

 

[Grace777x70]

While I know this is not written to me I must respectfully have to disagree here, many solid Bible scholars, preachers and pastors have carefully examined all scripture and in context and have concluded that that the gift of tongues was only for the period of the apostles to help the church get underway.

It would be very doubtful to say that these men also only used there natural mind.

You do realize that tongues happened at a certain point in time again in the 1800s in the United States and from there began an entire movement.

Well then, I would say that I am also a solid example of grace and spiritual immaturity because I do not pray in tongues.

Please reconsider this because I see nowhere in scripture where speaking in tongues in connected to spiritual maturity. If there is please find it because I have missed it.

All of us believers that do not have spiritual insight in a specific area of scripture are spiritually immature in that area. We could be mature in other areas and most likely are but in that other area - we are immature.

There have been documented people throughout history that have spoken in tongues - it is just not widely known.

The Lord does emphasize certain truths too at times in history to resurrect truths that are needed for the time we are in - just like for 1300 years there was hardly any grace being taught until Luther said " The just shall live by faith" and "by grace are we saved through faith alone".

The other people through time that have rejected the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit including speaking in tongues are all spiritually immature in that area - no matter how much they have supposedly studied and they are in fact going by their own natural thinking and understanding.

This same principle can be seen in people today that reject the grace of Christ by adding works and this exhibits the same type of immaturity in this subject.

 

[garee]

I appreciate the insight and explanation, and I know that it does put those that believe in these gifts on the defensive to some degree and do understand that having been there on other topics, however I still think it is best that not anyone make it personal.

Yes back to the debate, I actually think this has been a more civil discussion than many others.

The question I would ask is. Is tongues evidence that a person has received the Holy Spirit, you could say just as drinking poison and not being affected.? Or is it simply there is no outward sign and wonder that indicates a person has the Spirit of Christ?

Is there an outward sign called a gift in respect to the one who performs that kind of work,even though God is no longer briniging new prohecy ?

 

[UnderGrace]

All of us believers that do not have spiritual insight in a specific area of scripture are spiritually immature in that area. We could be mature in other areas and most likely are but in that other area - we are immature.

The other people through time that have rejected the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit including speaking in tongues are all spiritually immature in that area - no matter how much they have supposedly studied and they are in fact going by their own natural thinking and understanding.

This same principle can be seen in people today that reject the grace of Christ by adding works and this exhibits the same type of immaturity in this subject.

Pretty funny I must say. Hmmm....well good try I still did not see any scripture.... like I said you are tenacious!

How about this one and look my goodness no mention of speaking in tongues, well maybe Paul forgot to put it in?

[h=2]Hebrews 5:12-14
[/h] “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.”

I would say that people who add works to the gospel have fallen prey to the wave of bad teaching and wrongly dividing the Word in the last 50 years....I think they call it Lordship salvation.

 

[UnderGrace]

The question I would ask is. Is tongues evidence that a person has received the Holy Spirit, you could say just as drinking poison and not being affected.? Or is it simply there is no outward sign and wonder that indicates a person has the Spirit of Christ?

Is there an outward sign called a gift in respect to the one who performs that kind of work,even though God is no longer briniging new prohecy ?

I would not say tongues is not evidence that a person has received the Holy Spirit, because to me that means that someone would have to speak in tongues as a sign of salvation, scripture does not support this.

I am not sure that we can discern always whether the person has he Holy Spirit. some people sadly know how to put on a good show but are fake, like the wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[ladylynn]

All of us believers that do not have spiritual insight in a specific area of scripture are spiritually immature in that area. We could be mature in other areas and most likely are but in that other area - we are immature.

There have been documented people throughout history that have spoken in tongues - it is just not widely known.

The Lord does emphasize certain truths too at times in history to resurrect truths that are needed for the time we are in - just like for 1300 years there was hardly any grace being taught until Luther said " The just shall live by faith" and "by grace are we saved through faith alone".

The other people through time that have rejected the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit including speaking in tongues are all spiritually immature in that area - no matter how much they have supposedly studied and they are in fact going by their own natural thinking and understanding.

This same principle can be seen in people today that reject the grace of Christ by adding works and this exhibits the same type of immaturity in this subject.

This is a very good answer Bruce. Many believers think that if someone is a "mature" Christian, they are mature in ALL. That is so far from the truth because we are fallible humans and can't know it all. It takes the Holy Spirit to open our eyes. We each have certain preconceived ideas about ourselves., about life, other people and God., that it takes many years to undo them in many cases. Or a major explosion in their lives to shake some of those apples down out of the tree along with those old leaves too.

We are learning every day (or at least we should be) especially concerning the Bible and the unveiling of the truth. Growing in grace and knowledge is not just relearning more about what we already know. Often times it's finding out things about God that changes our lives.

 

[Cee]

Unfortunately plenty of scholars believe in Lordship salvation too. So a lot of people for and even against something doesn't mean one is more mature than the other.

As far as tongues Scripture, we have Paul saying he wished all would speak in tongues. But even more that they would prophesy. Yet he is clear about wanting all to speak in tongues.

Pretty funny I must say. Hmmm....well good try I still did not see any scripture.... like I said you are tenacious!

How about this one and look my goodness no mention of speaking in tongues, well maybe Paul forgot to put it in?

[h=2]Hebrews 5:12-14
[/h] “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.”

I would say that people who add works to the gospel have fallen prey to the wave of bad teaching and wrongly dividing the Word in the last 50 years....I think they call it Lordship salvation.

 

[UnderGrace]

This is a very good answer Bruce. Many believers think that if someone is a "mature" Christian, they are mature in ALL. That is so far from the truth because we are fallible humans and can't know it all. It takes the Holy Spirit to open our eyes. We each have certain preconceived ideas about ourselves., about life, other people and God., that it takes many years to undo them in many cases. Or a major explosion in their lives to shake some of those apples down out of the tree along with those old leaves too.

We are learning every day (or at least we should be) especially concerning the Bible and the unveiling of the truth. Growing in grace and knowledge is not just relearning more about what we already know. Often times it's finding out things about God that changes our lives.

Ladylynn,

I agree, on some days I see more maturity in myself than others. Certainly we need to grow in grace, knowledge and all the fruits of the spirit. Having said that, I can only follow what scripture teaches and I have not read anywhere where speaking in tongues is related to spiritual maturity.

All that I see are two different belief systems, one group of believers is failing to properly/rightly divide the word of God because we both cannot have it right, which happens I get that completely, but I cannot go beyond that to say that not speaking in tongues is a lack of spiritual maturity. I can only follow what scripture teaches so please show me the verse.

Just say I believe in the gift of tongues, one cannot make further conclusions and connections about the status of a persons maturity unless it is in scripture.

No offense taken and I hope none given that is not my intent.

 

[UnderGrace]

Unfortunately plenty of scholars believe in Lordship salvation too. So a lot of people for and even against something doesn't mean one is more mature than the other.

As far as tongues Scripture, we have Paul saying he wished all would speak in tongues. But even more that they would prophesy. Yet he is clear about wanting all to speak in tongues.

I agree on the first and not so much on the second.

 

[Cee]

I agree on the first and not so much on the second.

What do you not agree with? You asked for Scripture, I am simply quoting Paul.

What is there not to agree with I'm confused.

 

[ladylynn]

Ladylynn,

I agree, on some days I see more maturity in myself than others. Certainly we need to grow in grace, knowledge and all the fruits of the spirit. Having said that, I can only follow what scripture teaches and I have not read anywhere where speaking in tongues is related to spiritual maturity.

All that I see are two different belief systems, one group of believers is failing to properly/rightly divide the word of God because we both cannot have it right, which happens I get that completely, but I cannot go beyond that to say that not speaking in tongues is a lack of spiritual maturity. I can only follow what scripture teaches so please show me the verse.

Just say I believe in the gift of tongues, one cannot make further conclusions and connections about the status of a persons maturity unless it is in scripture.

No offense taken and I hope none given that is not my intent.

Hi UnderGrace., no offence given or taken sis The reason I said Grace777's post was a good answer was because in the spiritual realm., a person can have the gift of tongues and still be immature in many other areas like long suffering or discipline or loving others or any number of other things that are essential.

That's why I see now all glory all credit for the good things we do goes to Jesus., and all the stupid things we do are our own fault. I know lots of people with different kinds of strengths and weaknesses but I can't judge the Lord based on those people. In fact it's a whole new "ballgame" as they say, when it comes to God. His ways are not our ways and vs/vs.

It does actually remind me of falling out of a tree or having the apples fall out of our life's deeply rooted tree system. We think we have some major important things figured out so that we have some fruit in our lives to show for it.

Often time lot's of stuff in our lives goes unchallenged until one day., or series of days and events., everything we ever believed and did based on that belief is challenged to the very depths of our soul. And none of it stands.

Then, as we see our yeeears of carefully thought out convictions and beliefs made into just a bunch of hollow works that had no real faith in Jesus., we watch them for what they really were and all fall through the cracks like so much dust and dirt. Then cry and even wail at the loss of it all and the utter shame and waste we spent in them.
I've also heard other Christians tell it this way; a person builds his whole life and climbs up the ladder each wrung at a time working hard and long going from one to the next having some successes and some failures but he keeps going truly believing he is in the right. He finally gets to the top and finds his ladder is on the wrong building.

It would seem there would be nothing worse than that scenario right? No that is not the worst., the worse case scenario is if we don't ever believe the warnings along the way in our Christian life and don't find out our ladder was on the wrong building. Then when we see Jesus we have no crowns to lay at His feet. That would be the very worse thing imo if I never found out how stupid I was and didn't have a chance to work along side Him while still here on earth.

But because I found out somehow through those horrible times it was then Jesus and His grace came in and there is again renewed hope!! He shows it's time to let the Lord build the house all over again., and He does! He actually will do as the Bible says and give us back the years the locusts have eaten. Sooo many principles in the Bible that we have yet to apply to our lives today.

So when I see other Christians judge one another harshly I know they have not really been down so low that Jesus in His grace had to haul them up and out. They just don't know how truly stupid we humans are and how prideful and childish our human nature is. How badly we need grace to walk us through life after we are saved. It's the love and mercy of God., the grace and mercy of God that we need a revelation of.

From what I've observed once we find out we don't know it all., it is then He begins to really teach us how to read the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit. Until I found out how much He really loves me (and His other children) I was not able to step out in faith and trust Him to teach me. It comes down to this., it doesn't really matter what anyone says., it only matters what He tells us and shows us in His Word and by His Spirit.

 

[RickyZ]

I appreciate the insight and explanation, and I know that it does put those that believe in these gifts on the defensive to some degree and do understand that having been there on other topics, however I still think it is best that not anyone make it personal.

Yes back to the debate, I actually think this has been a more civil discussion than many others.

God has given me a heart for him... he's not a stupid man, just pointed in the wrong direction. A dangerous direction. That's the one thing that sets the gifts issue apart from all the rest - it carries with it the chance to commit the unforgiveable sin. That's why I teach them and defend them and warn others about where they attribute them to... whether overtly or by default. Roger treads a dangerous tightrope... one I'd like to talk, bully and pray him off of.

 

[Grace777x70]

Pretty funny I must say. Hmmm....well good try I still did not see any scripture.... like I said you are tenacious!

How about this one and look my goodness no mention of speaking in tongues, well maybe Paul forgot to put it in?

Hebrews 5:12-14


“For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.”

I would say that people who add works to the gospel have fallen prey to the wave of bad teaching and wrongly dividing the Word in the last 50 years....I think they call it Lordship salvation.

LOL....good one! I would say that most scriptures do not mention tongues or any other truth when they are talking about another truth.

I wonder why Paul continually forgot to mention every truth he knew in every scripture he wrote? ( That's if Paul wrote Hebrews - personally I could care less if he did or didn't - it's irrelevant to me - I do love the book though!..)

If you want some scripture other then the scriptures already been shown about praying in tongues and what it does for the believer. Here is one that shows that the natural mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit. The Spirit is given to us so that we might know the things "freely" given to us by God. ( This group can fall prey to the same wave of bad teaching as the "works" people do )

1 Corinthians 2:12-15 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised
.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

I agree about people who add works certainly have fallen prey to a wave of bad teaching from many different forms and even though they are good-intentioned - they are diluting the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have seen many believers that spoke in tongues that were spiritually immature in many areas - including in speaking in tongues. Many believers just speak when they are at a meeting someplace but it is supposed to be used in every situation in our life. Paul said "I thank God that I speak in tongues more then you all." - that's a lot of speaking in tongues. 1 Cor. 14:18

We can be babes in spiritual understanding in certain areas of truth. When I say all of us are spiritually immature in certain areas - this just means that we lack spiritual understanding in that area or truth.

The Corinthians that spoke in tongues as well as all the others there - Paul called them all babes in Christ still. Speaking in tongues is not a sign of spiritual maturity.

We can be ignorant of a certain area of truth and that makes us immature in that truth. There are many things to do with the Lord that I am spiritually immature in because I really don't have spiritual understanding in those areas yet but I trust Him to finish what He has started in me. He will be faithful to all of us!

1 Corinthians 3:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

 

[garee]

Unfortunately plenty of scholars believe in Lordship salvation too. So a lot of people for and even against something doesn't mean one is more mature than the other.

As far as tongues Scripture, we have Paul saying he wished all would speak in tongues. But even more that they would prophesy. Yet he is clear about wanting all to speak in tongues.

Yes that was before he gave us the last of new prophecy when he sealed up the possibility for more, for ever more.

I think it has nothing to do with how mature a Christian is but has the perfect/complete/whole will of God come or do we still believe in part and adding new prophecy is the norm and we are still prophesying declaring His will in part.?

I suggest we have the whole or what is called the perfect with no laws missing.

If not for instance, how do we try the spirits to see if they are of God or of men ? Is Mohammed a true prophet and the Koran is simply an addition to the word of God or Josef Smith, Charles Mansion or is the Pope a true prophet and the private revelation they claim they are receiving .Can they be added to the scriptures?

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be “tongues”, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1Co 13:8

I would think that at that time the prophecies of men did fail seeing we only knew in part and did not have the whole called the perfect to compare to the claims. But with tongues he says they will cease. For the same reason .There simply will not be any new knowledge from God needed to know him better.

Bringing the gospel today seeing we no longer have it in part is like speaking in tongues, as God interprets it giving us His understanding men can know Him.