Purgatory

[jaybird88]

It is a big deal. The GOSPEL is preached now

there's a reason why HE said if you do not believe I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins

its a big deal how? if one believes in this idea they go straight to hell, they are anti Jesus, how exactly is it a threat?
the only big deal i see people making about it is the dirty Catholics teach it, but no one ever explains why the teaching itself is wrong other than linking it to Catholics and the concept was never invited by them anyway.

the Essenes believed it to be true, and IMO they knew what they were talking about, they where the only sect expecting the Christ, they where the first ones calling themselves a new covenant community, however the Essenes wrote little about it. it was never a false teaching, the false teaching was when the church made it into something to focus your entire life around and to pay money to get out of.

 

[miknik5]

its a big deal how? if one believes in this idea they go straight to hell, they are anti Jesus, how exactly is it a threat?
the only big deal i see people making about it is the dirty Catholics teach it, but no one ever explains why the teaching itself is wrong other than linking it to Catholics and the concept was never invited by them anyway.

the Essenes believed it to be true, and IMO they knew what they were talking about, they where the only sect expecting the Christ, they where the first ones calling themselves a new covenant community, however the Essenes wrote little about it. it was never a false teaching, the false teaching was when the church made it into something to focus your entire life around and to pay money to get out of.

The teaching is wrong because it suggests that faith in CHRIST is not sufficient to save
That somehow, after we die in CHRIST, we must be further washed?

and washed by what?


as if faith in the work of THE CROSS alone and HIS blood covering and washing us is not sufficient?

 

[Deade]

Hi Ahwatukee,

Wait: you said: "The fact is that after three days Jesus' spirit returned to His body, which was then became immortal and glorified and is also a guarantee of every believers resurrection as well. Therefore a resurrection must take place, where the spirit returns to the body which will rise immortal and glorified just as Jesus resurrected."

So this was the glorified body that appeared to His disciples? I don't buy it. The whole premise is based on the fact you think we are already immortal. That our consciousness must go somewhere. No, If God leaves us in the grave, that will be the end of us. All Protestants carried out these error ridden doctrines from the Catholic Church. I know you don't want to hear it but you are mortal. I admit, I do not know how God preserves or regenerates our spirits but that is what the word points to.

If Jesus was in His glorified state: then why didn't he shine like it said in Revelation. Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Yours,

Deade

 

[miknik5]

HE is able to save COMPLETELY (not partially) those who come to HIM because HE lives to intercede for them

To say that after we die, we will have to work out our failures is saying that CHRIST did not accomplish for us as a High Priest and the only mediator between GOD and man what our weakened flesh in this world could never accomplish

 

[jaybird88]

The teaching is wrong because it suggests that faith in CHRIST is not sufficient to save
That somehow, after we die in CHRIST, we must be further washed?

and washed by what?


as if faith in the work of THE CROSS alone and HIS blood covering and washing us is not sufficient?

you can still be saved and be purified before entering heaven. Christians have always asked for forgiveness of sins in prayers, is the work on the cross not good enough? and you still have NT teachings that talk of the judgment to come after death, and thats after Jesus was crucified, came back and ascended.

 

[miknik5]

you can still be saved and be purified before entering heaven. Christians have always asked for forgiveness of sins in prayers, is the work on the cross not good enough? and you still have NT teachings that talk of the judgment to come after death, and thats after Jesus was crucified, came back and ascended.

Where is this additional place?
and where is it alluded to in the Bible?

 

[Ahwatukee]

So then that place of comfort is that heaven itself or is it being in the presence of the lord in a place of comfort until resurrection day or both maybe? I mean if there is a kind of holding place until resurrection is that what Abrahams bosom is? And if we just go to our final destination then why don't we just receive our glorified bodies then?

Hi Blain,

I personally believe that when Jesus told the man next him "today you will be with me in paradise" that he was speaking about that place of comfort where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, which was a place of comfort/paradise.

After the Lord's resurrection, and as Nehemiah6 mentioned, the spirits of those saints were taken to heaven. According to 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-23, when the believer dies their spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. To be clear, at the time of death the believer no longer goes to that place where Abraham and Lazarus were.

However, when the unsaved die, they still go to Sheol/Hades, which was/is that place of torment where the rich man went to. We know this to be true because in Rev.20:11-15 reveals that their spirits will come out of Hades, being resurrected and will stand before God at the great white throne to be judged. This would demonstrate that when the unrighteous die their spirits are sent to Sheol/Hades and remain there until the judgment.

And if we just go to our final destination then why don't we just receive our glorified bodies then?

Just like with everything, I believe that God has set times for events to be fulfilled and the group resurrection of the church is just one of those. For example, remember when the disciples asked Jesus "will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" And Jesus told them, "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority." Therefore, I believe it is just a matter of God's design and His timing."

Blessings to you!

 

[Ahwatukee]

So this was the glorified body that appeared to His disciples? I don't buy it. The whole premise is based on the fact you think we are already immortal.

Hello Deade,

So, you don't believe that Jesus' spirit reentered his body that was in the tomb three days and three nights and that appeared to his disciples after his resurrection?

The spirit is immoral, but this present body isn't. Not until the resurrection will that body be immortal.

Also, the fact that your spirit/soul goes somewhere else is what the event of the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates. For the scripture states that both men died and their bodies buried, but their spirits were found in Sheol/Hades, where they were conscious and aware. So that answers that question.

No, If God leaves us in the grave, that will be the end of us. All Protestants carried out these error ridden doctrines from the Catholic Church. I know you don't want to hear it but you are mortal. I admit, I do not know how God preserves or regenerates our spirits but that is what the word points to.

This is not a Catholic doctrine, but is supported by scripture. Everyone who comes into this world, their spirit is immortal, but the body dies and decay's. Jesus himself said that he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights and he wasn't just talking about his body. The fact that he told the man next to him "today you will be with me in paradise" would be the question, "if they both died that day, how could they be in paradise?" The answer is because Jesus was speaking of their spirits.

To be clear, me being in Christ, if I was to die today, my spirit would depart and go to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware. And when the resurrection takes place, my spirit would be reunited with my resurrected body immortal and glorified, just like Jesus.

If Jesus was in His glorified state: then why didn't he shine like it said in Revelation. Revelation 19:12 "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

First of all, what kind of state do you think the Lord was in when he resurrected? And second, he didn't necessarily have to display those attributes if he didn't want to. Remember, when he was resurrected, he had heavenly abilities. Those on the road to Emmaus were kept from recognizing him until he broke bread with them. These kinds of questions do not negate the facts of Jesus resurrecting in his glorified body. Maybe he had a dimmer switch so that he wouldn't shine so much

The Lord's resurrection is a guarantee of the resurrection of all believers who have died in him.

"We know not what we shall be, but we know that when we see him, we shall be like him."

 

[Ahwatukee]

you think there are only two judgments, heaven and hell, believers are never held accountable for sins?

Hi Jaybird88,

Scripture states that "when we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Our sins have already been forgiven. When the believer appears before the Bema seat of Christ, he will receive reward or suffer loss of reward. Whatever survives through the fire we will receive reward for. But our sins will never be brought back up, because Christ already paid the penalty for them. It is the unrighteous who will stand at the great white throne and will be held accountable for every sin committed.

 

[stillness]

We are not saved by understanding Truth, "Lean not on your own understanding but trust in the Lord."
"If any man thinks he knows he does not know as he should." If we think we know we stop learning. "Now we know in part." The bible has hidden mysteries in parables on purpose. We don't know fully and are drawn to strive for knowledge, but from a point of view of having all questions answered, what matters is growing in Love. "A new commandment I give to you, that you Love one another; as I have loved you, that you also Love one another." This Love as Jesus Loved us, is only possible by the Holy Spirit, and if we continue to grow in this Love we will be carried by the Holy Spirit into the first resurrection. Those holding on to a life for themselves have fears and doubts, "Love does not insists on it's own way" and waits for us to yield ourselves to Him. "It shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give you rest from your sorrows and your fears and the hard bondage wherein you were made to serve." On that day the Lord will rule our heart and will be the Kingdom of heaven within. He sais He has brought us near by His blood, presently we know in part and are vulnerable and rely on His Grace: His influence to help in trouble, "Count it all Joy, Pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. The reason we are not told much about those released from hell to be rewarded according to their labour is its not what we are here for: we are here to grow up in Him, "Let no one turn you away from the simplicity of Christ. "Some will be saved but as through fire but will lose their reward." These are not the bride that He died for: that will rule with Him over the nations of the saved. Good night,

 

[TMS]

Do we have immortal souls?
Do we live for ever and ever?
Regardless of where we are do we ever stop living or being alive or existing in one form or another?
As a human being do we have life in ourselves?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do we have immortal souls?
Do we live for ever and ever?
Regardless of where we are do we ever stop living or being alive or existing in one form or another?
As a human being do we have life in ourselves?

Yes, that is correct. The spirit/soul of a human being exists forever. Life and death are both states of conscious existence. Ones decision regarding Christ is what determines where a person spends that existence.

Both the righteous and the unrighteous will receive resurrected bodies, which will house their spirits. For scripture states that, "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15

As a human being do we have life in ourselves?

It is God who gives the spirit/soul of every human being eternal existence. Where we spend that existence depends on our decision regarding Christ. Both life and death according to scripture is as follows:

Life = Eternal conscious existence in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.

 

[ComeLordJesus]

Both the righteous and the unrighteous will receive resurrected bodies, which will house their spirits. For scripture states that, "and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15

You do realize don't you that the wicked will not be resurrected with the righteous when Jesus comes for the saints and we go and meet him in the sky?

 

[jaybird88]

Where is this additional place?
and where is it alluded to in the Bible?

i really dont know, i dont put a lot of thought into it, but common sense tells me that if something is judged against me then there has to be a place to pay the judgment.

 

[Nehemiah6]

i really dont know, i dont put a lot of thought into it, but common sense tells me that if something is judged against me then there has to be a place to pay the judgment.

If you think that that place is Purgatory then you have been seriously misled. Purgatory is a fiction created by the RCC in order to rake in the wealth of those who go along with its nonsense. So you should inquire about purchasing some indulgences. Alternately dig deeper into the Word of God.

 

[jaybird88]

If you think that that place is Purgatory then you have been seriously misled. Purgatory is a fiction created by the RCC in order to rake in the wealth of those who go along with its nonsense. So you should inquire about purchasing some indulgences. Alternately dig deeper into the Word of God.

but if i dig deeper into seeking the Most High i start learning people were teaching beliefs such as purgatory hundreds of years before rome ever imperialized the faith.
i guess its best just to accept what the group tells you to believe and never to go off seeking like Jesus taught.

 

[jaybird88]

If you think that that place is Purgatory then you have been seriously misled. Purgatory is a fiction created by the RCC in order to rake in the wealth of those who go along with its nonsense. So you should inquire about purchasing some indulgences. Alternately dig deeper into the Word of God.

i did want to add that i agree with you that any churches misleading the masses to rake in the wealth is very shameful. the mega churches, prosperity gospel, sow a seed, etc etc. but then again, none of those guys are Catholic.

 

[Bladerunner]

its a big deal how? if one believes in this idea they go straight to hell, they are anti Jesus, how exactly is it a threat?
the only big deal i see people making about it is the dirty Catholics teach it, but no one ever explains why the teaching itself is wrong other than linking it to Catholics and the concept was never invited by them anyway.

the Essenes believed it to be true, and IMO they knew what they were talking about, they where the only sect expecting the Christ, they where the first ones calling themselves a new covenant community, however the Essenes wrote little about it. it was never a false teaching, the false teaching was when the church made it into something to focus your entire life around and to pay money to get out of.

The Catechism of the RCC (paragraphs 1030-1032,Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 12)

Any ways they believe that even though you die in the Grace of Jesus Christ, you are still imperfect and cannot go to heaven. Therefore, one must go to Purgatory to get Purified and then Go to Heaven.

Of course those that die and are not in the Grace of Jesus are going straight to HELL.....