Purity - Without being purified do we know anything
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" perception shapes reality " and 1+ 1 does not always equal 2
Perception shapes our understanding of reality.
Until people become aware we are limited in every area of existence and rely on assumptions to do
everything, the idea that guy over there is totally wrong and I am totally right seems sensible.
All we can do is see things as others do, and contribute insights as they occur.
A simple idea is can you equate a gift of love with an action of hate? In language you can say they
are opposites, but they are worlds apart in how they are created and why they exist.
So some will say a saved sinner is not saint, only a sinner with faith. Another will say a saved sinner
is a transformed individual who is no longer what they used to be, so no longer a sinner, but walking
with Jesus. This is why Paul was so strong about marrying an unbeliever, because the whole Kingdom rests
on our hearts, and the heart in Christ is very different from a heart in the world. Pauls words are very strong,
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?
Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?
For we are the temple of the living God.
As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and
I will be their God, and they will be my people."
2 Cor 6
So equally if the change in the believer is just they are pointing to Jesus, Paul must be wrong.
Perception shapes our understanding of reality.
Until people become aware we are limited in every area of existence and rely on assumptions to do
everything, the idea that guy over there is totally wrong and I am totally right seems sensible.
All we can do is see things as others do, and contribute insights as they occur.
A simple idea is can you equate a gift of love with an action of hate? In language you can say they
are opposites, but they are worlds apart in how they are created and why they exist.
So some will say a saved sinner is not saint, only a sinner with faith. Another will say a saved sinner
is a transformed individual who is no longer what they used to be, so no longer a sinner, but walking
with Jesus. This is why Paul was so strong about marrying an unbeliever, because the whole Kingdom rests
on our hearts, and the heart in Christ is very different from a heart in the world. Pauls words are very strong,
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?
Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?
For we are the temple of the living God.
As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and
I will be their God, and they will be my people."
2 Cor 6
So equally if the change in the believer is just they are pointing to Jesus, Paul must be wrong.
7
that's rich
pardon my bluntness. you can be blunt with me too
but when did the conversation turn to the 'emergent church?'
2 things
1. conversation is not a dirty word. communication is not a waste of time. God does not send one size fits all so why would we?
2. have you considered why we have the 'emergents'? reasons for everything
and by the way, the op is speaking doctrine. but it's doctrine that has to be 'unearthed' cause most folks seem to want to use the KISS method of Bible study.
Keep it Simple Stupid (don't take that personally)
God says we will find Him when we search for Him with our whole heart
do you think He has absolved us of that bother by grace alone?
I am asking these questions with a sincere attitude
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Jesus was enigmatic. Maybe you have not realised this. Jesus desires we discover He is the
Son of God, rather than He declaring it to us. Do you know the difference?
Until we have purified hearts, we cannot see the path to walk or how to walk it.
Discussion and debate becomes irrelevant. The impure will always find excuses for their
behaviour which is why they are slaves to sin and not slaves to righteousness.
Son of God, rather than He declaring it to us. Do you know the difference?
Until we have purified hearts, we cannot see the path to walk or how to walk it.
Discussion and debate becomes irrelevant. The impure will always find excuses for their
behaviour which is why they are slaves to sin and not slaves to righteousness.
I think when you mentioned the word 'journey' in post #79, it triggered a chemical reaction in my brain, with visions of the Emergent Church, who see themselves on a journey in which they never reach a destination...because for them there are no absolutes. I hope youi took no offense.
Never said it was a waste of time...unless the parties conversing can't agree on an absolute standard of Truth.
Yes, they are a repackaged hip form of old school theological liberalism, that thinks it's cool to come up with creative ways to question God's Word.
No I have said here more than once that the Author of Scripture has an intended meaning for what He had the Holy Prophets and Apostles write and it is our duty to seek out that meaning.
Never said it was a waste of time...unless the parties conversing can't agree on an absolute standard of Truth.
Yes, they are a repackaged hip form of old school theological liberalism, that thinks it's cool to come up with creative ways to question God's Word.
No I have said here more than once that the Author of Scripture has an intended meaning for what He had the Holy Prophets and Apostles write and it is our duty to seek out that meaning.
I like Jesus's comment on John the Baptist
13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
15 He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 11
So Jesus is saying there are things that are difficult to accept, but if you do
or do not, it is not important.
Protestants and catholics often desired for a single definitive answer to everything.
Quantum mechanics shows that an electron is both a wave and a particle. But this
is impossible, but it varies depending on what you are looking for.
I suspect scripture often works in a similar way. So we are predestined to be with
Jesus from the beginning of time, yet we choose to follow, those God chose us first.
So what we are looking for changes what we find, which is very annoying and defies
absolutes, and creates disputes that will never be resolved.
So it makes me think, our desire for certainty is our enemy, rather than pursuing
Christ in all things, and ways to express our love and praise of Him.
13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
15 He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt 11
So Jesus is saying there are things that are difficult to accept, but if you do
or do not, it is not important.
Protestants and catholics often desired for a single definitive answer to everything.
Quantum mechanics shows that an electron is both a wave and a particle. But this
is impossible, but it varies depending on what you are looking for.
I suspect scripture often works in a similar way. So we are predestined to be with
Jesus from the beginning of time, yet we choose to follow, those God chose us first.
So what we are looking for changes what we find, which is very annoying and defies
absolutes, and creates disputes that will never be resolved.
So it makes me think, our desire for certainty is our enemy, rather than pursuing
Christ in all things, and ways to express our love and praise of Him.
True, at times He was. Problem is, you are not Jesus. When He was asked to speak clearly, He did.
Here we go again with your condescending manner. You seem to like to put yourself up on a high pedestal, seeking to enlighten us. Newsflash, if you are born again, we have the same Spirit abiding in us, please treat others accordingly.
Jesus is in the process of purifying all our hearts until that Day, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the LIFE.
What? We have been set free, and are to present our members to God as instruments of righteousness.
I don't understand your comment unless it is another judgmental arrow of condescension, in which case I agree, conversation with you is irrelevant.
Here we go again with your condescending manner. You seem to like to put yourself up on a high pedestal, seeking to enlighten us. Newsflash, if you are born again, we have the same Spirit abiding in us, please treat others accordingly.
Jesus is in the process of purifying all our hearts until that Day, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the LIFE.
What? We have been set free, and are to present our members to God as instruments of righteousness.
I don't understand your comment unless it is another judgmental arrow of condescension, in which case I agree, conversation with you is irrelevant.
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God does not change, neither does His Word. We may see through a glass darkly due to the remaining old nature but that gives no excuse for not pursuing certainty or trying to make claims of relativism with God. When uncertainties are allowed regarding God's Word, then even Jesus becomes uncertain in the minds of men.
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7seasrekeyed said:
but when did the conversation turn to the 'emergent church?'
crossnote response
I think when you mentioned the word 'journey' in post #79, it triggered a chemical reaction in my brain, with visions of the Emergent Church, who see themselves on a journey in which they never reach a destination...because for them there are no absolutes. I hope youi took no offense.
LOL! well that would be your trigger then and no I did not take offense. I hardly give a thought to the so called 'emergent' church anyway and I'm not sure that what some think is emergent is actually emergent
7seasrekeyed said:
1. conversation is not a dirty word. communication is not a waste of time. God does not send one size fits all so why would we?
crossnote response
Never said it was a waste of time...unless the parties conversing can't agree on an absolute standard of Truth.
well you did not say it was but you referred conversation as opposed to doctrine when you triggered on the word journey
7seasrekeyed said:
2. have you considered why we have the 'emergents'? reasons for everything
crossnote response
Yes, they are a repackaged hip form of old school theological liberalism, that thinks it's cool to come up with creative ways to question God's Word.
I think it's fine to question God and so does He. that's one way we learn. I'm not sure what you mean by creative ways so you can clarify or just let it go. up to you. another reason we may have very large groups of people who want to see God portrayed differently is the bench press very hard on your bottom lukewarm congregations that wonder why everyone is leaving. none of that means I agree or disagree as there is so much 'variety' within groups or how they approach things, I would not want to put my definitive stamp of approval OR disapproval on any of it. I would not refer to myself as emergent in any case
7seasrekeyed said:
and by the way, the op is speaking doctrine. but it's doctrine that has to be 'unearthed' cause most folks seem to want to use the KISS method of Bible study.
Keep it Simple Stupid (don't take that personally)
God says we will find Him when we search for Him with our whole heart
do you think He has absolved us of that bother by grace alone?
I am asking these questions with a sincere attitude
crossnote response
No I have said here more than once that the Author of Scripture has an intended meaning for what He had the Holy Prophets and Apostles write and it is our duty to seek out that meaning.
well of course He does but I am going to have to go with personal bias and interpretation as well as experience, IQ, reception and whatever else goes into the formula for each of us as unique individuals
if we actually do 'search' for God we are bound to come up with something a little more personal than what is fed on a Sunday or even a Bible Study
if we renew our minds with the word, that is change our thinking to agree with God, smooth out the well worn ruts of our strongholds and actually work with the Holy Spirit for change in and around us, we are not going to confine God to measure up to His own word, because He will anyway. we may just not understand though because He is, after all, God and His thoughts are way higher than our thoughts and He has eternity in mind and not just a way out of or into any situation
hope that does not sound too emergent
you saying what you have referred to as an ongoing position (said more than once) is your personal reference point if I understand you. absolute truth(s) if you will. however, the various ways in which these 'truths' are interpreted can vary widely and that might be what the OP is getting at
for example, let's take the prophets. some believe every word is relevant for everyone and some believe that certain portions are while certain portions are not meant for current believers at all.
some believe we need to keep the Sabbath and that is an absolute truth for them and others believe we do not
and so on
so perhaps reflecting on the central theme of scripture and understanding Him gives a better sense of both direction and understanding
but when did the conversation turn to the 'emergent church?'
crossnote response
I think when you mentioned the word 'journey' in post #79, it triggered a chemical reaction in my brain, with visions of the Emergent Church, who see themselves on a journey in which they never reach a destination...because for them there are no absolutes. I hope youi took no offense.
LOL! well that would be your trigger then and no I did not take offense. I hardly give a thought to the so called 'emergent' church anyway and I'm not sure that what some think is emergent is actually emergent
7seasrekeyed said:
1. conversation is not a dirty word. communication is not a waste of time. God does not send one size fits all so why would we?
crossnote response
Never said it was a waste of time...unless the parties conversing can't agree on an absolute standard of Truth.
well you did not say it was but you referred conversation as opposed to doctrine when you triggered on the word journey
7seasrekeyed said:
2. have you considered why we have the 'emergents'? reasons for everything
crossnote response
Yes, they are a repackaged hip form of old school theological liberalism, that thinks it's cool to come up with creative ways to question God's Word.
I think it's fine to question God and so does He. that's one way we learn. I'm not sure what you mean by creative ways so you can clarify or just let it go. up to you. another reason we may have very large groups of people who want to see God portrayed differently is the bench press very hard on your bottom lukewarm congregations that wonder why everyone is leaving. none of that means I agree or disagree as there is so much 'variety' within groups or how they approach things, I would not want to put my definitive stamp of approval OR disapproval on any of it. I would not refer to myself as emergent in any case
7seasrekeyed said:
and by the way, the op is speaking doctrine. but it's doctrine that has to be 'unearthed' cause most folks seem to want to use the KISS method of Bible study.
Keep it Simple Stupid (don't take that personally)
God says we will find Him when we search for Him with our whole heart
do you think He has absolved us of that bother by grace alone?
I am asking these questions with a sincere attitude
crossnote response
No I have said here more than once that the Author of Scripture has an intended meaning for what He had the Holy Prophets and Apostles write and it is our duty to seek out that meaning.
well of course He does but I am going to have to go with personal bias and interpretation as well as experience, IQ, reception and whatever else goes into the formula for each of us as unique individuals
if we actually do 'search' for God we are bound to come up with something a little more personal than what is fed on a Sunday or even a Bible Study
if we renew our minds with the word, that is change our thinking to agree with God, smooth out the well worn ruts of our strongholds and actually work with the Holy Spirit for change in and around us, we are not going to confine God to measure up to His own word, because He will anyway. we may just not understand though because He is, after all, God and His thoughts are way higher than our thoughts and He has eternity in mind and not just a way out of or into any situation
hope that does not sound too emergent
you saying what you have referred to as an ongoing position (said more than once) is your personal reference point if I understand you. absolute truth(s) if you will. however, the various ways in which these 'truths' are interpreted can vary widely and that might be what the OP is getting at
for example, let's take the prophets. some believe every word is relevant for everyone and some believe that certain portions are while certain portions are not meant for current believers at all.
some believe we need to keep the Sabbath and that is an absolute truth for them and others believe we do not
and so on
so perhaps reflecting on the central theme of scripture and understanding Him gives a better sense of both direction and understanding
7
well pardon the interruption, but you cannot define everyone the way you see it
every single one of us has uncertainties.
if by uncertainties you mean believe some but not all of the Bible then I agree with you
but if you mean we need to have our act all together and march on at all times, then I do not
it appears to me, having participated in Christian forums of one kind or another for at least 10 years now, not to mention
being in leadership in various capacities in different churches or counselling with individuals, Jesus is pretty fuzzy in the minds
of many and God even more so
people do not have a foundation. they do not study...they depend on the person up front for their spiritual food or google it
or, sadly, come to a forum such as this for life altering answers to questions they either do not recognize as their responsibility to seek out or desperation demands an immediate resolution to the problem in order to evade ongoing pain
not every person certainly, but a great many
and this I have said many times in this forum and taught...if a person does not have a general understanding of scripture, if they have avoided the OT all their lives, if they do not take the time to build a relationship with God, they are going to continue to flounder and squirm when the waves hit. and they will hit
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11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body is fitted and held together by every supporting ligament; and as each individual part does its work, the body grows and builds itself up in love.
Ephesians 4
20But this is not the way you came to know Christ. 21Surely you heard of Him and were taught in Him, in keeping with the truth that is in Jesus, 22to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be renewed in the spirit of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26“Be angry, yet do not sin.”c Do not let the sun set upon your anger, 27and do not give the devil a foothold.
Ephesians 4
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. 16From Him the whole body is fitted and held together by every supporting ligament; and as each individual part does its work, the body grows and builds itself up in love.
Ephesians 4
20But this is not the way you came to know Christ. 21Surely you heard of Him and were taught in Him, in keeping with the truth that is in Jesus, 22to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be renewed in the spirit of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26“Be angry, yet do not sin.”c Do not let the sun set upon your anger, 27and do not give the devil a foothold.
Ephesians 4
I'll go with the fact that Scripture is clear, and that Scripture interprets Scripture. It's our muddled thinking that obscures the clearness of Scripture.
If we do a search for God, we should find Him clothed in our humanity, feeding, healing, loving the Father, and most of all dying on a cross for our sins.
This is classical Emergent stuff, questioning 'how we know what we know'. Interpretations may vary, but Truths don't.
2 Corinthians 4:13 (KJV) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
That may be an example of differing interpretations, but it does not affect the absolutes of Scripture...unless one thinks their god is emerging like the Liberation theologians.
If we do a search for God, we should find Him clothed in our humanity, feeding, healing, loving the Father, and most of all dying on a cross for our sins.
This is classical Emergent stuff, questioning 'how we know what we know'. Interpretations may vary, but Truths don't.
2 Corinthians 4:13 (KJV) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
That may be an example of differing interpretations, but it does not affect the absolutes of Scripture...unless one thinks their god is emerging like the Liberation theologians.
I never said 'everyone'. I was making a point that when 'uncertainties' of Scripture are allowed to fester and be coddled, even our certainty about Jesus becomes jeopardized.
That will continue to happen until the people choose who to believe..God and His Word, (even if circumstances scream against it) or human reasoning,psychology, and so called science (e.g. evolution). People have to get a grip and decide. God has proven Himself faithful through fulfilled prophecy, no reason for Him to change now.
Agreed
That will continue to happen until the people choose who to believe..God and His Word, (even if circumstances scream against it) or human reasoning,psychology, and so called science (e.g. evolution). People have to get a grip and decide. God has proven Himself faithful through fulfilled prophecy, no reason for Him to change now.
Agreed
My summary is simple: Impure - judged, sent to destruction, pure - saved, walking with Jesus.
Impurity is such an important issue, but today with water to cleanse us from taps, washing
hands, bathing, clean clothes, soap, hot water, we take purity and cleansing for granted.
With pornography and films showing so much sex and violence, it is hard not to be polluted with
the evil in our minds and hearts that flows so regularly around us.
But God is clear. No compromise on purity. We cannot see God without being pure.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5
7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4
27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life
Rev 21
We have to be pure, we have to be purified to walk with Jesus.
Impurity is such an important issue, but today with water to cleanse us from taps, washing
hands, bathing, clean clothes, soap, hot water, we take purity and cleansing for granted.
With pornography and films showing so much sex and violence, it is hard not to be polluted with
the evil in our minds and hearts that flows so regularly around us.
But God is clear. No compromise on purity. We cannot see God without being pure.
5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--
has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5
7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4
27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful,
but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life
Rev 21
We have to be pure, we have to be purified to walk with Jesus.
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7seasrekeyed said:
well of course He does but I am going to have to go with personal bias and interpretation as well as experience, IQ, reception and whatever else goes into the formula for each of us as unique individuals
crossnote:
if we actually do 'search' for God we are bound to come up with something a little more personal than what is fed on a Sunday or even a Bible Study
I'll go with the fact that Scripture is clear, and that Scripture interprets Scripture. It's our muddled thinking that obscures the clearness of Scripture.
If we do a search for God, we should find Him clothed in our humanity, feeding, healing, loving the Father, and most of all dying on a cross for our sins.
you are making yourself clear. my conclusion from your response above and those you have made to the op is that unless an individual agrees with your conclusion then they are other then YOU are.
I accept that as that seems to be the norm for most Christians...sadly.
you are not actually going with scripture as you purport, but rather your own definition of what you think others should respond to in the same manner you did.
I do not expect you to see that and I do not agree with your assessment that God is clothed in our humanity
in fact, He describes Himself in no way close to that particular strange conclusion but rather says He is clothed in light and His thoughts are far above our thoughts. it also seems you have left no room for the fact that scripture states Jesus despised the cross AND asked the Father if there was any other way to redeem humankind from spiritual separation and ultimate death
God is holy and independent of our personal observations and He does not change.
Scripture does interpret scripture and that is the method I have always used. so perhaps review your understanding of what God says about Himself and understand that we must agree with Him and not come up with humanistic concessions, no matter how comforting they might be to us.
Understand that without the ultimate sacrifice of the Creator of all that exists, we would be doomed and that does not make Him human, that makes Him God. When Jesus returns, He is not coming back to heal and comfort. The Holy Spirit is actually our comforter now but I don't believe you believe you think the gifts are still in operation? It would benefit my understanding of your response if you clarified that or not; but that's up to you.
7seasrekeyed said:
you saying what you have referred to as an ongoing position (said more than once) is your personal reference point if I understand you. absolute truth(s) if you will. however, the various ways in which these 'truths' are interpreted can vary widely and that might be what the OP is getting at
crossnote:
This is classical Emergent stuff, questioning 'how we know what we know'. Interpretations may vary, but Truths don't.
2 Corinthians 4:13 (KJV) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
you really do seem to have some kind of blockage of not being able to get past what you personally clarify as 'emergent'
that's ok. Jesus was pretty emergent for His day too. the Holy Spirit is all truth, but not everyone believes all the truth. so if you think that is emergent? then I would quite happily reside with them for that particular item
again, do you believe the gifts are relevant for today? if you don't, then you don't believe all truth. there is nothing in scripture to indicate the ceasing of any gift. there are examples of why some people should stop saying they exhibit the gifts, but they are not indicators of the same truth as the Holy Spirit or people would not point them out to begin with
for example, let's take the prophets. some believe every word is relevant for everyone and some believe that certain portions are while certain portions are not meant for current believers at all.
some believe we need to keep the Sabbath and that is an absolute truth for them and others believe we do not
and so on
so perhaps reflecting on the central theme of scripture and understanding Him gives a better sense of both direction and understanding
That may be an example of differing interpretations, but it does not affect the absolutes of Scripture...unless one thinks their god is emerging like the Liberation theologians.
see, right above there in conclusion I state Scripture has absolutes, which agrees with you saying scripture is the final word, but you prefer to go to your default position of 'emergent' because I am more lucid and descriptive than you are when explaining something. either that, or you are a cessationist. prob both. taking the cessationist platform changes how one views scripture, changes the operation of the Holy Spirit in an individuals' life and certainly changes the desire to entertain the idea you might not have the understanding you perceive yourself to have
in other words, the cessationist declares themself to be unteachable by the very character they assume of being the teacher rather then the Spirit of God employed in that role
now if you are not a cessationist, I must make a big effort to apoligize to you and have no problem doing so.
but that does not change how I view a cessationist.
well of course He does but I am going to have to go with personal bias and interpretation as well as experience, IQ, reception and whatever else goes into the formula for each of us as unique individuals
crossnote:
if we actually do 'search' for God we are bound to come up with something a little more personal than what is fed on a Sunday or even a Bible Study
I'll go with the fact that Scripture is clear, and that Scripture interprets Scripture. It's our muddled thinking that obscures the clearness of Scripture.
If we do a search for God, we should find Him clothed in our humanity, feeding, healing, loving the Father, and most of all dying on a cross for our sins.
you are making yourself clear. my conclusion from your response above and those you have made to the op is that unless an individual agrees with your conclusion then they are other then YOU are.
I accept that as that seems to be the norm for most Christians...sadly.
you are not actually going with scripture as you purport, but rather your own definition of what you think others should respond to in the same manner you did.
I do not expect you to see that and I do not agree with your assessment that God is clothed in our humanity
in fact, He describes Himself in no way close to that particular strange conclusion but rather says He is clothed in light and His thoughts are far above our thoughts. it also seems you have left no room for the fact that scripture states Jesus despised the cross AND asked the Father if there was any other way to redeem humankind from spiritual separation and ultimate death
God is holy and independent of our personal observations and He does not change.
Scripture does interpret scripture and that is the method I have always used. so perhaps review your understanding of what God says about Himself and understand that we must agree with Him and not come up with humanistic concessions, no matter how comforting they might be to us.
Understand that without the ultimate sacrifice of the Creator of all that exists, we would be doomed and that does not make Him human, that makes Him God. When Jesus returns, He is not coming back to heal and comfort. The Holy Spirit is actually our comforter now but I don't believe you believe you think the gifts are still in operation? It would benefit my understanding of your response if you clarified that or not; but that's up to you.
7seasrekeyed said:
you saying what you have referred to as an ongoing position (said more than once) is your personal reference point if I understand you. absolute truth(s) if you will. however, the various ways in which these 'truths' are interpreted can vary widely and that might be what the OP is getting at
crossnote:
This is classical Emergent stuff, questioning 'how we know what we know'. Interpretations may vary, but Truths don't.
2 Corinthians 4:13 (KJV) We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
you really do seem to have some kind of blockage of not being able to get past what you personally clarify as 'emergent'
that's ok. Jesus was pretty emergent for His day too. the Holy Spirit is all truth, but not everyone believes all the truth. so if you think that is emergent? then I would quite happily reside with them for that particular item
again, do you believe the gifts are relevant for today? if you don't, then you don't believe all truth. there is nothing in scripture to indicate the ceasing of any gift. there are examples of why some people should stop saying they exhibit the gifts, but they are not indicators of the same truth as the Holy Spirit or people would not point them out to begin with
for example, let's take the prophets. some believe every word is relevant for everyone and some believe that certain portions are while certain portions are not meant for current believers at all.
some believe we need to keep the Sabbath and that is an absolute truth for them and others believe we do not
and so on
so perhaps reflecting on the central theme of scripture and understanding Him gives a better sense of both direction and understanding
That may be an example of differing interpretations, but it does not affect the absolutes of Scripture...unless one thinks their god is emerging like the Liberation theologians.
see, right above there in conclusion I state Scripture has absolutes, which agrees with you saying scripture is the final word, but you prefer to go to your default position of 'emergent' because I am more lucid and descriptive than you are when explaining something. either that, or you are a cessationist. prob both. taking the cessationist platform changes how one views scripture, changes the operation of the Holy Spirit in an individuals' life and certainly changes the desire to entertain the idea you might not have the understanding you perceive yourself to have
in other words, the cessationist declares themself to be unteachable by the very character they assume of being the teacher rather then the Spirit of God employed in that role
now if you are not a cessationist, I must make a big effort to apoligize to you and have no problem doing so.
but that does not change how I view a cessationist.
7
7seasrekeyed said:
well pardon the interruption, but you cannot define everyone the way you see it
every single one of us has uncertainties.
if by uncertainties you mean believe some but not all of the Bible then I agree with you
but if you mean we need to have our act all together and march on at all times, then I do not
I never said 'everyone'. I was making a point that when 'uncertainties' of Scripture are allowed to fester and be coddled, even our certainty about Jesus becomes jeopardized.
well you do like to speak in generalities...that's good for redefining what you stated at a later time while seeming the other person has misunderstood.
which uncertainties in particular do you have in mind? I would consider your answer to this question to be pivotal to the response you have given...and not just responses to me either
7seasrekeyed said:
it appears to me, having participated in Christian forums of one kind or another for at least 10 years now, not to mention
being in leadership in various capacities in different churches or counselling with individuals, Jesus is pretty fuzzy in the minds
of many and God even more so
crossnote
That will continue to happen until the people choose who to believe..God and His Word, (even if circumstances scream against it) or human reasoning,psychology, and so called science (e.g. evolution). People have to get a grip and decide. God has proven Himself faithful through fulfilled prophecy, no reason for Him to change now.
again, what is it that you in particular view as needing change? you have said nothing specific but continue to generalize your responses. that indicates no commitment. do you care to clarify? anyone can complain. my aim is always to find answers.
that does not mean agreement as already indicated.
7seasrekeyed said:
and this I have said many times in this forum and taught...if a person does not have a general understanding of scripture, if they have avoided the OT all their lives, if they do not take the time to build a relationship with God, they are going to continue to flounder and squirm when the waves hit. and they will hit
crossnote
Agreed
well pardon the interruption, but you cannot define everyone the way you see it
every single one of us has uncertainties.
if by uncertainties you mean believe some but not all of the Bible then I agree with you
but if you mean we need to have our act all together and march on at all times, then I do not
I never said 'everyone'. I was making a point that when 'uncertainties' of Scripture are allowed to fester and be coddled, even our certainty about Jesus becomes jeopardized.
well you do like to speak in generalities...that's good for redefining what you stated at a later time while seeming the other person has misunderstood.
which uncertainties in particular do you have in mind? I would consider your answer to this question to be pivotal to the response you have given...and not just responses to me either
7seasrekeyed said:
it appears to me, having participated in Christian forums of one kind or another for at least 10 years now, not to mention
being in leadership in various capacities in different churches or counselling with individuals, Jesus is pretty fuzzy in the minds
of many and God even more so
crossnote
That will continue to happen until the people choose who to believe..God and His Word, (even if circumstances scream against it) or human reasoning,psychology, and so called science (e.g. evolution). People have to get a grip and decide. God has proven Himself faithful through fulfilled prophecy, no reason for Him to change now.
again, what is it that you in particular view as needing change? you have said nothing specific but continue to generalize your responses. that indicates no commitment. do you care to clarify? anyone can complain. my aim is always to find answers.
that does not mean agreement as already indicated.
7seasrekeyed said:
and this I have said many times in this forum and taught...if a person does not have a general understanding of scripture, if they have avoided the OT all their lives, if they do not take the time to build a relationship with God, they are going to continue to flounder and squirm when the waves hit. and they will hit
crossnote
Agreed
But nothing beyond Scripture, otherwise how do we know it is from God?
Well I hope we are our own person. I'm no longer into Eastern religions.
I'm clueless to what you are saying here.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col 2:9)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Joh 1:14)
I will stop here as your post goes on and on and on without the courtesy of actually quoting me as I have just quoted you. As it is, I just happened to see 'crossnote' in your post above, otherwise I would have missed it altogether.
Why are you targeting me? What is your point? And can you express it in one paragraph? (I dislike long drawn out posts as they are an indication the speaker doesn't have a grasp of his subject matter and goes on and on and on).
Well I hope we are our own person. I'm no longer into Eastern religions.
I'm clueless to what you are saying here.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col 2:9)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Joh 1:14)
I will stop here as your post goes on and on and on without the courtesy of actually quoting me as I have just quoted you. As it is, I just happened to see 'crossnote' in your post above, otherwise I would have missed it altogether.
Why are you targeting me? What is your point? And can you express it in one paragraph? (I dislike long drawn out posts as they are an indication the speaker doesn't have a grasp of his subject matter and goes on and on and on).
7
LOL!
I'm happy to oblige you
no one is targeting you. this is a forum. if you want to be ignored then don't post
do you consider asking you if you are a cessationist as targeting you?
never mind. I don't want to tax you.
one more thing though. I totally quoted you and even used different colored type to do so
were you targeting the op when you kept asking the same thing over and over? was that targeting?
pretty sad. I don't care if someone responds or not when they can't answer questions put to them but yet demand answers from others as you have done
LOL!
I'm happy to oblige you
no one is targeting you. this is a forum. if you want to be ignored then don't post
do you consider asking you if you are a cessationist as targeting you?
never mind. I don't want to tax you.
one more thing though. I totally quoted you and even used different colored type to do so
were you targeting the op when you kept asking the same thing over and over? was that targeting?
pretty sad. I don't care if someone responds or not when they can't answer questions put to them but yet demand answers from others as you have done
I'm happy to oblige you
no one is targeting you. this is a forum. if you want to be ignored then don't post
do you consider asking you if you are a cessationist as targeting you?
never mind. I don't want to tax you.
one more thing though. I totally quoted you and even used different colored type to do so
were you targeting the op when you kept asking the same thing over and over? was that targeting?
pretty sad. I don't care if someone responds or not when they can't answer questions put to them but yet demand answers from others as you have done
Thank you for quoting me.this time.
Cessationist? Why do you ask? It never crossed my mind. That's a low priority topic with me.
The way you quoted me in post #96, gave me no notification that someone had quoted me and next time I'll just let it sit.
I don't care for these personal barbs, but if you want to discuss a topic then fine, I'm willing.