Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sometimes I wonder if people simply repeat Bible verses but never envision the practical outworking of what they say and think it through to it's logical end.

Well, I do think he believes that the ONLY saints to be "resurrected" (to "reign with Christ" in the MK age) are those who are "killed / martyred / beheaded" DURING THE [last] 3.5 yrs of the Trib... and that the ones they will be reigning over is THE UNBELIEVERS who he thinks ARE PERMITTED ENTRANCE INTO the MK age (contrary to everything the Gospels say about this).

He also thinks that Rev20:5 saying "The REST of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" MEANS "the rest of the BELIEVERS [who've died throughout entire world history, other than these "trib saints" v.4b speaks to], won't be resurrected until the GWTj point in time" (and incorrectly suggests that the Sheep and goat judgment supposedly *proves* such a point--not!)



So yes, he does see "mortals" entering and existing in the MK age. They just enter it as UNSAVED / UNBELIEVERS, in his view (whom the "trib saints [ALONE]" who are "resurrected," will "reign" over). That's how I'm reading him. So, yeah, *in his mind* it makes sense.
It just disregards much biblical truth, to come to such a conclusion.

 

[Genez]

By doing a perusal oversight, it looks like Isaiah 65 is definitely talking about the new Heaven and new Earth, where no corruption will ever invade.

MM

“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. "

Isaiah 65:20


If that spoke of the final new earth?
When no one will ever die?
Age and death would not be a topic to be discussed.

 

[Musicmaster]

What happens if your wrong.

If we were wrong on this count, then God would then have to withdraw His salvation from us through the sealing of Holy Spirit, which is not offered to those in the tribulation, and He would also use His power to reverse or new birth from having been born again in the dispensation of grace, which is also something not given to those in the tribulation period. Jesus said in Matthew 24 that those in the tribulation will have to endure unto the end so that they SHALL be saved at the point of the end of their lives, or until He Second Coming for those who might survive to that point.

In other words, the Lord would have to go back on His word of promise and gifting to us in order to see if we actually endure unto the end, which is not at all something He will ever do to us who are of the body of Christ. He is not one to be fickle like mankind. Paul also talked of our being changed in the twinkling of the eye, with that coming of Christ being of the same character as when He ascended up into the clouds from the disciples. The two angels declared that He would come for us in the same manner as He had departed, which was NOT in the wrath and death as when He comes at His second coming, with the blood of His enemies splattered upon His garments.

Additionally, one of the strongest indicators for the timing is this:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

There are many more texts that give to us strong indicators, but I have to get up at 3AM, so will need to settle in for the night.

So, in this verse we see that "us" is a reference to the body of Christ, the Church, and that we are not appointed to wrath. What wrath?

Well, the tribulation, divided in half, is ALL the wrath of God, with the second half referred to as being a time of GREAT wrath.

1/4th of the earths population is going to perish in just the first half under the cursing of the four horsemen. Another 1/3 of the remaining population, which adds up to a full 1/2 of the earth's entire population compared to the overal population at the beginning of the tribulation, will be wiped out as well.

THAT is wrath, although in varying degrees, but still wrath, contrary to what the pre-wrath wagoneers claim in their eschatology.

Rightly dividing the word of truth, however, still remains among the best indicators that the Church will not be here, but removed as the Lord then turns His attention to Israel and dealing with her staunch rejection of His only begotten Son. Zechariah 12 solidifies this when the remaining 1/3 of all Jews, after 2/3rds are wiped off the face of the earth, will lift up their eyes unto Him at His appearing at the Second Coming to deliver the remnant, and they will look upon Him whom they had pierced, and mourn as if for a first born son.

Yes, there are other "schools of thought," but they are not schools who rightly divide the word of truth.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I was talking about the Millennium "new earth."

There will be two new earths.
First one will be the earth of the Millennium.
At the end of 1000 years Satan will be loosed to wage war against the Lamb
and be destroyed with finality.

Then, when a thousand years are done?

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear
with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and
everything done in it will be laid bare." 2 Peter 3:10

God will destroy the heavens and earth with fire and begin with another "new" earth.
That new earth will be called "the Home of Righteousness."

But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven
and a new earth, the Home of Righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13

grace and peace .................

Oh, ok. I don't see any problem with your calling it that, although it will only be this earth restored to a pristine state, although still plagued with the effects of sin to the degree that the Lord allows. Given that He must rule with a rod of iron, we have good reason to believe that there will still be sin and rebellion in the hearts of the offspring of those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom, especially considering that there will still be disobedience in that time with some nations not coming before the Lord at the Feast of Tabernacles...those nations that had come up against Israel in the tribulation.

MM

 

[Genez]

Oh, ok. I don't see any problem with your calling it that, although it will only be this earth restored to a pristine state, although still plagued with the effects of sin to the degree that the Lord allows. Given that He must rule with a rod of iron, we have good reason to believe that there will still be sin and rebellion in the hearts of the offspring of those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom, especially considering that there will still be disobedience in that time with some nations not coming before the Lord at the Feast of Tabernacles...those nations that had come up against Israel in the tribulation.

MM

Satan is going to have his jail door opened at the end of the Millennium to gather people who wish to make war against the Lamb.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven. He had in his hand a key ​

to the hole without a bottom. He also had a strong chain. ​

​

He took hold of the dragon, that old snake, who is the Devil, or Satan, and ​

chained him for 1,000 years. (1000 years = time of the Millennium)​

The angel threw the devil into the hole without a bottom. He shut it and ​

locked him in it. ​

​

He could not fool the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were completed. ​

After this he must be free for awhile." Revelation 20:1-3​

That is not speaking of the time of the finalized new heavens and new earth.
The new heavens and new earth that will be created after the Lord burns up the first heavens and first earth!

 

[enril]

The bottom line is that nobody looses their salvation within the dispensation of grace. The objections I've seen this are always steeped in hypotheticals, with them necer explaining how anyone today can become UNborn again and UNsealed by Holy Spirit.

I would say that you feel differently now because NOW you are truly saved. Salvation is not a feeling, it's becoming a whole new creation.

MM

I am not talking hypotheticals, but I agree w/ you. but can you be less rude about it? the manner of dispensaton helps your point get believed.

 

[sawdust]

Have you read the text?

Have a look at Revelation 20 again.

Read it carefully.

Then get back to me.

Anyone can read the text, the questions I'm asking are trying to establish your understanding of who enters the Millennium. Do you know who these Tribulation believers are or not? Simply saying they are the Tribulation believers because they went through the Tribulation is like saying "a woman is a woman because she's born a woman".

 

[sawdust]

By doing a perusal oversight, it looks like Isaiah 65 is definitely talking about the new Heaven and new Earth, where no corruption will ever invade.

MM

Yet, it seems to give the impression death is a potential scenario, at least it does to my mind especially when compared to Rev.21.

I get a different picture when I look at both passages which, in my mind, would explain the difference between the new creation to be found in the Millennium and the new creation to be found in the eternal sate.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yet, it seems to give the impression death is a potential scenario, at least it does to my mind especially when compared to Rev.21.

The correct passage is Isaiah 66:22 to 24. While the new heavens and the new earth are in verse 22, the saved will evidently be about to view the ultimate fate of the unsaved in verse 24.

 

[sawdust]

The correct passage is Isaiah 66:22 to 24. While the new heavens and the new earth are in verse 22, the saved will evidently be about to view the ultimate fate of the unsaved in verse 24.

I suggest you read Isaiah 65: 17-25 to get a fuller picture of what the new heavens and earth will be like.

Isaiah 65:17
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

 

[Genez]

The correct passage is Isaiah 66:22 to 24. While the new heavens and the new earth are in verse 22, the saved will evidently be about to view the ultimate fate of the unsaved in verse 24.

Keep in mind. There are to be two new heavens and earths.
First is the transformed earth for the Millennium - the lion will lie with the lamb and man will learn war no more.

The second new earth will only appear after the universe and this planet are destroyed by nuclear fusion (the elements will melt).
That will take place when the Millennium ends.


The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with
a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the
works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:9-10

All we now know and see in our planetary system? Will cease to exist and be gone!

God will then create a New heaven and a New Earth like nothing known before.


Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?
You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed
it's coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements
will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven
and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Peter 3:11-13

The second New Earth will be called "the Home of Righteousness."

At present, life here is primitive and dull in comparison.
But we will need our resurrection body to contain the joy and excitement we will forever never tire of.

In Christ .......

 

[Blade]

Do you also believe that a resurrection of the righteous dead also happens at the same time?

Answering just on what you asked..... what is written? "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

See its written the dead in Christ shall rise first and then we change as it says in 1st Cor will be caught up together. What does together men? Why ask "at the same time" when He already answered that. We that are alive will not go before those who are asleep but they will rise first then we get caught up "together" to meet the lord in the air to be with Him forever.

See they knew about dates and times.. and Paul or really the sweet sweet holy Spirit said right after that "Therefore comfort one another with these words.". There is no pre no mid no post. He is coming. Don't you ever wonder about Christ telling the 12 He is going back to make us a home and if He goes He will come again to get us to take us to receive us unto Himself so "where" He is we will be. This is not hard to figure out for where is He? He just told them/us. Then in Rev ""Behold, I am coming soon!"

So we read both of those and don't you ever wonder why He said it like that? He never lied. As long as we look at this in the natural we will never understand it. So if He never through out His word promised you tomorrow then.. maybe be ready now would be the wiser action.. not debating about for it just causes in some doubt worry which are never of God.

 

[Inquisitor]

Anyone can read the text, the questions I'm asking are trying to establish your understanding of who enters the Millennium. Do you know who these Tribulation believers are or not? Simply saying they are the Tribulation believers because they went through the Tribulation is like saying "a woman is a woman because she's born a woman".

An interesting reply.

Anyone can read the text, you say. Well, there seems to be a mountain of interpretation
read into every interpretation in eschatology. The last thing that will happen is folk
reading the text.

You want my understanding of who enters the millennium, sawdust?

From a reading of Revelation 20, it would appear that everyone enters the millennium.

Except the great tribulation saints are reigning with Jesus after that first resurrection.

Are these first resurrection Christians reigning with Christ in heaven or on earth?

The text is not clear on this point.

We do know also that Gog and Magog attack the camp of the saints in the Holy City.
And Jesus has not returned before this point in time. The GWT judgement is yet to
take place.

I do not see a general resurrection after the great tribulation in Revelation 20.

There is definitely a general resurrection some time after the end of the millennium.

We cannot deny that only tribulation saints reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We cannot deny that only tribulation saints reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

Not true.

Rev5:9-10 says otherwise - https://biblehub.com/revelation/5-10.htm "...SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH" (said of a distinct group from that of the Rev20:4b "last-half-of-Trib saints" who are martyred/beheaded IN THAT TIME-FRAME alone).



What you seem to be suggesting is, that ALL OTHER "saints" (from all time, throughout entire world history) OTHER THAN these "final 3.5-yr martyrs"... WILL BE susceptible to "the second death" (per how you're reading verse 6--that ONLY these "final [3.5-yr] martyrs" it is said "ON SUCH the second death hath no power"... but that the rest of the "saints" throughout history, it WILL OR MAY HAVE).

How is that?!


I propose to you that this passage ISN'T making such a point.


By your re-arranging the chronology / sequence of certain events (by mis-understanding a few verses here and there), is [also] how you're coming up with this.

 

[Omegatime]

Zech 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.

 

[Inquisitor]

To say the "Tribulation believers are those that underwent the Great Tribulation" is rather circular and doesn't tell me who you think they are. Are they the Church, those in Christ? Are they Jewish believers only? Are they a mix of Jewish believers and Gentile believers who live in and worship with Israel? Or a mix of Jewish and Gentile believers throughout the world?

I am trying to picture the practical ramifications of what you are saying.

Do you see only the Resurrected entering the Millennium? If so how can they be deceived at the end? Doesn't give us a great deal of hope if we can still be deceived in our resurrection bodies does it?

If only some believers are resurrected to enter the Millennium and others enter in their flesh bodies, what is the criteria that determines that separation?

Or do you picture there will be unbelievers entering the Millennium alongside believers?

Are you actually seeing in your mind the implication of what you say or are you simply repeating a verse without understanding?

Yes, I do see the problems that the text (Revelation 20) generates.

One is the fact that Revelation 20 mentions a first resurrection after the great tribulation.

There is obviously a first and a second resurrection. This is difficult to negotiate.

The tribulation saints only will reign with Jesus during the millennium, second fact.
Do the tribulation saints reign in heaven or on earth?
Who are the Christians in the camp of the Holy City that Gog and Magog attack?

All other folk and some time after the end of the millennium undergo a check, to see if their name
is written in the book of life, third fact.

 

[sawdust]

An interesting reply.

Anyone can read the text, you say. Well, there seems to be a mountain of interpretation
read into every interpretation in eschatology. The last thing that will happen is folk
reading the text.

You want my understanding of who enters the millennium, sawdust?

From a reading of Revelation 20, it would appear that everyone enters the millennium.

Except the great tribulation saints are reigning with Jesus after that first resurrection.

Are these first resurrection Christians reigning with Christ in heaven or on earth?

The text is not clear on this point.

We do know also that Gog and Magog attack the camp of the saints in the Holy City.
And Jesus has not returned before this point in time. The GWT judgement is yet to
take place.

I do not see a general resurrection after the great tribulation in Revelation 20.

There is definitely a general resurrection some time after the end of the millennium.

We cannot deny that only tribulation saints reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

So you don't see Jesus returning until the end of the Millennium?

 

[Genez]

An interesting reply.

Anyone can read the text, you say. Well, there seems to be a mountain of interpretation
read into every interpretation in eschatology. The last thing that will happen is folk
reading the text.

You want my understanding of who enters the millennium, sawdust?

From a reading of Revelation 20, it would appear that everyone enters the millennium.

Except the great tribulation saints are reigning with Jesus after that first resurrection.

Are these first resurrection Christians reigning with Christ in heaven or on earth?

The text is not clear on this point.

We do know also that Gog and Magog attack the camp of the saints in the Holy City.
And Jesus has not returned before this point in time. The GWT judgement is yet to
take place.

I do not see a general resurrection after the great tribulation in Revelation 20.

There is definitely a general resurrection some time after the end of the millennium.

We cannot deny that only tribulation saints reign with Jesus for a thousand years.

Thanks for all that.....

What do I owe you?

Do have change for a dime?

 

[Inquisitor]

Not true.

Rev5:9-10 says otherwise - https://biblehub.com/revelation/5-10.htm "...SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH" (said of a distinct group from that of the Rev20:4b "last-half-of-Trib saints" who are martyred/beheaded IN THAT TIME-FRAME alone).



What you seem to be suggesting is, that ALL OTHER "saints" (from all time, throughout entire world history) OTHER THAN these "final 3.5-yr martyrs"... WILL BE susceptible to "the second death" (per how you're reading verse 6--that ONLY these "final [3.5-yr] martyrs" it is said "ON SUCH the second death hath no power"... but that the rest of the "saints" throughout history, it WILL OR MAY HAVE).

How is that?!


I propose to you that this passage ISN'T making such a point.


By your re-arranging the chronology / sequence of certain events (by mis-understanding a few verses here and there), is [also] how you're coming up with this.

You are in denial of what was stated in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:4-5
...And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus
and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image,
and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life
and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until
the thousand years were completed.

I am not changing the chronology.

The first resurrection is for tribulation saints only.

 

[Genez]

Yes, I do see the problems that the text (Revelation 20) generates.

One is the fact that Revelation 20 mentions a first resurrection after the great tribulation.

There is obviously a first and a second resurrection. This is difficult to negotiate.

The tribulation saints only will reign with Jesus during the millennium, second fact.
Do the tribulation saints reign in heaven or on earth?
Who are the Christians in the camp of the Holy City that Gog and Magog attack?

All other folk and some time after the end of the millennium undergo a check, to see if their name
is written in the book of life, third fact.

First... What does the Second Resurrection entail?