In fact such deterrents as being disowned or killed is why Jesus said you must hate your brother, mother, father etc to follow Him. He wasn't saying to hate everyone, just making the point that those who oppose you in your acceptance of Him, even if they are family, are not be be bowed to. Taking a stand on the side of Truth must outweigh any and all other considerations. Otherwise you are living a lie.
Question from an atheist
- Thread starter ClementR
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S
You've already mentioned on another thread that you don't attend any fellowship because none teach "the truth" according to you.
As I've told you, the church is a protection against believers falling for nonsense, and you've provided another great example about how you believe nonsense.
Read Ephesians 4.
Claiming that the non-elect are simulations rather than real people is nonsense.
As I've told you, the church is a protection against believers falling for nonsense, and you've provided another great example about how you believe nonsense.
Read Ephesians 4.
Claiming that the non-elect are simulations rather than real people is nonsense.
Clement, your correct, not everyone who's ever lived has had a chance to hear the gospel, or had a chance to know and learn who Christ was. Jesus came to; "Preach deliverance to the captives" (Luke 4:18), which means to all the souls lost to sin. After his crucifixion, Jesus also; "Went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19), meaning the lost souls back to the beginning, and also gave them the same opportunity to accept the gospel (salvation). "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16), I believe that 'whosoever' is all inclusive of everyone. There will also be the millennium, a 1000 year time of teaching (Revelation 20; 1-6), which I believe is for the specific purpose of providing all the unsaved who never had a previous chance to receive Christ. No one will perish unjustly. If God is righteous, good, and just, then God must also be fair... jmo
S
The fair thing is that we all go to eternal punishment, as all have sinned. You may be able to say that God desires to be merciful to all, but there is no entitlement whatsoever that humans have to salvation. Anything that God does in this regard s purely a matter of grace, which is unmerited favor.
The issue we have in our society is thinking that salvation is something God owes us. God owes us nothing. We have a sin debt that demands that we suffer eternal punishment.
Romans 1, 2, 3 are clear in teaching that all know God exists, and willfully rebel against him. They know God's righteous requirements and disobey them anyways. They are under God's wrath and condemnation due to this. Claiming that God doesn't have wrath against the unconverted, and they are not under his condemnation is wrong.
The idea that mankind does not know God's righteous requirements, and that he is not calling them to repentance now is a lie. Softening this reality is something that is a false teaching that lulls people to sleep.
Also, there is absolutely no indication that there is a post-mortem salvation opportunity. Those who teach such things are ignoring the clear teachings of Romans 1, 2, and 3. The cult I belonged to taught such false things.
And, God is not on trial whatsoever regardless of what he does. Humans don't judge God. God judges humans. Claiming that God would be unjust if he doesn't meet our criteria for justice is wrong.
Is it loving to fail to tell people the bad news; that they are in a burning house and that if they don't get out, they are going to burn down with it?
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Romans 1: [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[SUP][g][/SUP] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [SUP]25 [/SUP]because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [SUP]31 [/SUP]foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Romans 2: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [SUP]16 [/SUP]on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:30 [SUP]30 [/SUP]The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Note that God commands ALL PEOPLE EVERYWERE NOW to repent. There is no future period of salvation.
Heb 9:27 [SUP]27 [/SUP]And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Note that judgment follows death. Some groups try to reason around this by claiming "judgment" means a post mortem salvation period but the context of Hebrews disproves this. The author of Hebrews is pointing a group of Jews toward the need to place their faith in Jesus Christ they would be judged.
Those who are unconverted need to turn from their sinful orientation and place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It's as simple as that.
The issue we have in our society is thinking that salvation is something God owes us. God owes us nothing. We have a sin debt that demands that we suffer eternal punishment.
Romans 1, 2, 3 are clear in teaching that all know God exists, and willfully rebel against him. They know God's righteous requirements and disobey them anyways. They are under God's wrath and condemnation due to this. Claiming that God doesn't have wrath against the unconverted, and they are not under his condemnation is wrong.
The idea that mankind does not know God's righteous requirements, and that he is not calling them to repentance now is a lie. Softening this reality is something that is a false teaching that lulls people to sleep.
Also, there is absolutely no indication that there is a post-mortem salvation opportunity. Those who teach such things are ignoring the clear teachings of Romans 1, 2, and 3. The cult I belonged to taught such false things.
And, God is not on trial whatsoever regardless of what he does. Humans don't judge God. God judges humans. Claiming that God would be unjust if he doesn't meet our criteria for justice is wrong.
Is it loving to fail to tell people the bad news; that they are in a burning house and that if they don't get out, they are going to burn down with it?
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Romans 1: [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[SUP][g][/SUP] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [SUP]25 [/SUP]because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [SUP]29 [/SUP]They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [SUP]31 [/SUP]foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Romans 2: [SUP]14 [/SUP]For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [SUP]16 [/SUP]on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:30 [SUP]30 [/SUP]The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Note that God commands ALL PEOPLE EVERYWERE NOW to repent. There is no future period of salvation.
Heb 9:27 [SUP]27 [/SUP]And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Note that judgment follows death. Some groups try to reason around this by claiming "judgment" means a post mortem salvation period but the context of Hebrews disproves this. The author of Hebrews is pointing a group of Jews toward the need to place their faith in Jesus Christ they would be judged.
Those who are unconverted need to turn from their sinful orientation and place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. It's as simple as that.
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People use all manner of intellectual tools to try to help them understand the world we live in within the context of the greater universe. I don't think that seeing it as a simulation does it injustice in the way you may. It is still serving some purpose... that being God's. I think what is being said, too, is that even if there are those whom God created for destruction, they still play a role in God's creation. I would not say, though, that God creates anyone for destruction. Destruction is the wages paid to sin through the second death.
The idea of the universe being a simulation also draws somewhat upon the Buddhist idea that life is an illusion. To say that does not mean that nothing is real, it simply means that all is transitory and impermanent except that which gives us life and consciousness in the first place, and that would be God, eternal and unchanging.
Star Trek? I dunno about Star Trek. I am just saying that he related everything to being a simulation from the perspective of physics and electronics, with space occupied by matter that is electrically charged. Within such a simulation it was postulated that we encounter angels, and thus some of the beings we think are people are not people at all.
He meant exactly what he said - hate... but he's not talking about our earthly mother and father etc he's talking about our spiritual father the devil and spiritual Mother Hagar. 
And we should shouldn't we, I mean who wants to love a mother that keeps us in bondage.
And we should shouldn't we, I mean who wants to love a mother that keeps us in bondage.
Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
I don't know, but it sounds like Paul is saying that there is a special group of people let's call them "real people", that God chose before the foundation of the world who WILL be adopted as God's children because it is God's good pleasure and will to do so.
Romans 9:21-22 KJV
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
In this passage it sounds like Paul is saying that there is a another group of people let's call them "simulated people" because they are not a part of the "real people" that were made specifically for destruction... they have no hope of slavation because they are not a part of the "real people". I don't know man but it sounds like Paul is saying the same thing I said earlier.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
I don't know, but it sounds like Paul is saying that there is a special group of people let's call them "real people", that God chose before the foundation of the world who WILL be adopted as God's children because it is God's good pleasure and will to do so.
Romans 9:21-22 KJV
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
In this passage it sounds like Paul is saying that there is a another group of people let's call them "simulated people" because they are not a part of the "real people" that were made specifically for destruction... they have no hope of slavation because they are not a part of the "real people". I don't know man but it sounds like Paul is saying the same thing I said earlier.
Greetings,
First off, How can you be an Atheist, then ask questions about the actions of God? If you believe there is a God, then you are not Atheist. Atheists believe there is no God. You say you are an Atheist and want to know why God does this or that. So let us address that first. Do you believe there is a God or do you believe there is no God?
^i^
First off, How can you be an Atheist, then ask questions about the actions of God? If you believe there is a God, then you are not Atheist. Atheists believe there is no God. You say you are an Atheist and want to know why God does this or that. So let us address that first. Do you believe there is a God or do you believe there is no God?
^i^
I'll hit the second part in a minute, but first let's talk about you not being the seed of Ishmael.
Galatians 4:22-24 KJV
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Being of the bloodline of Hagar and Ismael have nothing to with anything... they were Old Testament foreshadows or allegories of the two covenants. When we are born into this world we are under the law which is the Old Covenant, allegorically Hagar is our mother. When we are born again, we are under grace which is the New Covenanat, allegorically Sarah or heavenly Jerusalem is our mother. Does this make sense... because if it doesn't, what I'm about to say next certainly will not lol.
Galatians 4:22-24 KJV
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Being of the bloodline of Hagar and Ismael have nothing to with anything... they were Old Testament foreshadows or allegories of the two covenants. When we are born into this world we are under the law which is the Old Covenant, allegorically Hagar is our mother. When we are born again, we are under grace which is the New Covenanat, allegorically Sarah or heavenly Jerusalem is our mother. Does this make sense... because if it doesn't, what I'm about to say next certainly will not lol.