Question on post trib rapture.

Yet · Mar 15, 2016

Ive mentioned that before also. A hateful spirit complete with a smart b--t mouth towards those that hold to the pre-trib rapture.
Red flag indeed.

Ten virgins SLEEPING? How could they possibly be sleeping while the whole world is a tribulating? I wake up when the neighbors dog starts a barking.

Two at the mill grinding?....thank God we'll at least still have our jobs while the world is 'blowing up'! Maybe we could put in for 'tribulation leave', eh?

valiant · Mar 15, 2016

popeye said:

1 thess 4.15 ff lol except it a-tribulation

valiant · Mar 15, 2016

Yet said:

you pre tribs and post tribs are as bad as each other,

they are waiting for the second coming

its a PARABLE lol

truthman8 · Mar 15, 2016

The Bible clearly states that the Rapture is post-tribulation. The reason for this is that the Rapture occurs on the "8th Day", the first prophecy ever given, and was given by Enoch. This is the "union of physical and spiritual life". Most of you don't know this, but number 8 is the law of "realization" on the primary spectrum 0-12. When this happens, the spirit of God overtakes the Earth, and all believers at that time are "translated", or reconnected to God. There is no reason for Christ to wait any longer, although he may land with the angels a very short time before to cleanse the Temple before it occurs. Contrary to popular belief, society, or the world, does not end at this time. Many people are executed because of their evil, and Islam is defeated completely at Armageddon, but Christ rules with a "rod of iron" for a thousand years. Of course he does not rule the saved, because they no longer need iron rule, but are a law of God in themselves. The first resurrection is only for those who go through the Middle-East holocaust of the abomination of desolation and do not receive the mark of the Beast. Those who do are executed. I think Isaiah mentions that during the Millennium, people start living to a maximum of 1000 years, so that "a child will die one hundred years old." It's a figure of speech, but probably the unsaved can die during Millennium, but certainly can be saved. You can still commit evil, but you will be caught immediately and punished to the complete extent. For this reason, crime will cease for the greatest part, and there will be peace.

Devonmcknight68 · Mar 15, 2016

I think it's a perfectly valid argument, there isn't any need for smart remarks or anything. I don't think it's a salvation issue. But it is a very interesting topic and I love how we look to scripture for the answers. Thanks everyone for the post so far.

Devonmcknight68 · Mar 15, 2016

truthman8 said:

The Bible clearly states that the Rapture is post-tribulation. The reason for this is that the Rapture occurs on the "8th Day", the first prophecy ever given, and was given by Enoch. This is the "union of physical and spiritual life". Most of you don't know this, but number 8 is the law of "realization" on the primary spectrum 0-12. When this happens, the spirit of God overtakes the Earth, and all believers at that time are "translated", or reconnected to God. There is no reason for Christ to wait any longer, although he may land with the angels a very short time before to cleanse the Temple before it occurs. Contrary to popular belief, society, or the world, does not end at this time. Many people are executed because of their evil, and Islam is defeated completely at Armageddon, but Christ rules with a "rod of iron" for a thousand years. Of course he does not rule the saved, because they no longer need iron rule, but are a law of God in themselves. The first resurrection is only for those who go through the Middle-East holocaust of the abomination of desolation and do not receive the mark of the Beast. Those who do are executed. I think Isaiah mentions that during the Millennium, people start living to a maximum of 1000 years, so that "a child will die one hundred years old." It's a figure of speech, but probably the unsaved can die during Millennium, but certainly can be saved. You can still commit evil, but you will be caught immediately and punished to the complete extent. For this reason, crime will cease for the greatest part, and there will be peace.

What chapter and verse is that first part found in bud?

DP · Mar 16, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

Try Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Note especially the location from and to about the gathering of the saints, and compare that to the two groups of saints gathered per Paul in 1 Thess.4.

In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul was showing us that two events must occur first prior to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming to gather us. There must first be a great falling away, AND the 'man of sin' must be revealed sitting in the temple of God (in Jerusalem in a rebuilt temple) exalting himself in place of God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.

Our Lord Jesus showed in Rev.16:15 within the 6th Vial timing that He comes "as a thief", and is warning His Church on earth there. The gathering of the armies to battle at Armageddon and the pouring out of the 7th Vial is the next event in that order there.

The Rev.11 events of a temple in Jerusalem and God's two witnesses coming there to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days, all taking place within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, reveals the beast's time of reign in Jerusalem, and then with the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son, and He will reign forever. That ought to be enough proof of His coming after the tribulation like He said.

truthman8 · Mar 17, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

Are you referring to cites of a post-tribulation? Here are some verses:
Mat.24:30-31, Rev.20:4-6, 1 Thess.4:15-17, John 11:24, and Daniel 12:11-12.

If you're asking about the 8th day, it is given outright only by Enoch. It is given subtly in other places in the Bible. For ex., there were 8 people at the meeting of the risen Christ on the seashore. Jesus gives 8 Beatitudes, with a 9th as the extension of the 8th, meaning the Millennium. The 3rd day of the resurrection is also the 8th day of the week. The 3rd day is a prophecy of the Second Coming 2000 years later, which is also the 8th day. There are a number of 3rd day prophecies in the Bible.

popeye · Mar 17, 2016

truthman8 said:

The Bible clearly states that the Rapture is post-tribulation. The reason for this is that the Rapture occurs on the "8th Day", the first prophecy ever given, and was given by Enoch. This is the "union of physical and spiritual life". Most of you don't know this, but number 8 is the law of "realization" on the primary spectrum 0-12. When this happens, the spirit of God overtakes the Earth, and all believers at that time are "translated", or reconnected to God. There is no reason for Christ to wait any longer, although he may land with the angels a very short time before to cleanse the Temple before it occurs. Contrary to popular belief, society, or the world, does not end at this time. Many people are executed because of their evil, and Islam is defeated completely at Armageddon, but Christ rules with a "rod of iron" for a thousand years. Of course he does not rule the saved, because they no longer need iron rule, but are a law of God in themselves. The first resurrection is only for those who go through the Middle-East holocaust of the abomination of desolation and do not receive the mark of the Beast. Those who do are executed. I think Isaiah mentions that during the Millennium, people start living to a maximum of 1000 years, so that "a child will die one hundred years old." It's a figure of speech, but probably the unsaved can die during Millennium, but certainly can be saved. You can still commit evil, but you will be caught immediately and punished to the complete extent. For this reason, crime will cease for the greatest part, and there will be peace.

If it is so clear,post a verse.

I have never seen one in 40 years

popeye · Mar 17, 2016

Yet said:

Ignore the pre trib verses and......POOOOOF! Postrib rapture comes together like magic.

It is truly magical.

.......like the magic white horses u turn they plucked from thin air

truthman8 · Mar 17, 2016

I'm glad you mentioned Jesus' statement "behold I come as a thief". It's an odd statement which is out of context with the narration. He also made this statement during his ministry in a speech concerning his return. It is right after the 6th angel, which is right after the 5th angel. He's telling you that the Second Coming has just occurred. In the 5th vial, the Beast's kingdom is plunged into darkness; this means in the vision John is receiving, the kingdom of Antichrist has been rendered null and void, because Jesus has just landed in force. The Antichrist and False Prophet are suddenly outside of Israel trying to recruit another army- the armies of Armageddon. They are allowed to escape so that God can draw them all together to deal with them at one time.
Revelation 14:15-16 is the Rapture, when the angel comes out of the temple and calls to someone with a crown to "reap the harvest". The Temple is a symbol of the union of physical and spiritual life, which is the 8th Day which enables the Rapture to occur. Now who is going to swing the sickle except Jesus? The next angel with a sickle reaps another harvest, that of wrath. The reference to blood rising to the bridles of the horses is a description of Armageddon, which indicates that Christ has already returned, and the armies are gathering to defeat this great power, because Israel has no army at this time. So the Rapture has already occurred for believers.

I'll have to keep you posted on the other passages.

Devonmcknight68 · Mar 17, 2016

popeye said:

well in mark 13:26-27 " “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."
It just confuses me because it says that people will see him coming and then he gathers his elect. I'm not trying to argue but what exactly does that mean.

valiant · Mar 17, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

that they will see Him coming and then He will gather His elect I thess 4,13 on.

Devonmcknight68 · Mar 17, 2016

valiant said:

Yeah exactly, how can we see Christ coming if we aren't here? And what elect will he gather from the four winds of the earth if we were already gone.

Ahwatukee · Mar 17, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

Hello Devonmcknight68,

This is an on-going issue which stems from people not understanding that 1 Thes.4:13-18 is a completely separate event from Mt.24:30-31.

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"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

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The above is when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The event above is synonymous with Rev.1:7, 19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the Lord descending from heaven to the earth and the church, his bride, his called, chosen and faithful followers (Rev.17:14) are those seen following him out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, bright and clean, which the bride is shown receiving at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8.

In scripture above, the angels gathering his elect is not speaking about the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up, but is when the angels will be gathering those who will have made it alive through the end of God's wrath, which will include those great tribulation saints mentioned in Rev.7 and Israel, both groups still being in their mortal bodies and who will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period. To be clear, at that time, the angels will be gathering living people. This will be in fulfillment of the parable of the weeds and wheat in Mt.13:24-29,36-43. What is not mentioned in Mt.24:30-31 is that according to the parable, the harvesters/angels are told to first gather the weeds. Mt.24:30-31 is not a resurrection and catching away of the dead and the living, but a gathering of the those still alive in their mortal bodies whom they will gather throughout the entire earth.

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"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

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The above will be the fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, where Jesus told his disciples and therefore all believers, that he was going to prepare dwelling places for us in his Father's house and that he would return and gather us to take us back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he has prepared for us so that where he is, we may be also. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." And so, the Lord is not going to build his church and then send it through his wrath, which Jesus has rescued us from (1 Thes.1:10) and which believer's are not appointed to suffer (1 Thes.5:9).

Another on-going problem is that people do not understand the magnitude and severity of the wrath of God which is coming and which will be unprecedented. God, through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government during that time. This fits regarding that time of great distress when Jesus said, that if those days of wrath were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.

1 Thes.4:13-18 = The gathering of the church, dead and living, out of the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out.

Mt.24:30-31 = The Lord's return to the earth with the church to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom

popeye · Mar 17, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

That would be post tribs only shaky banner verse.

1 ) angels gather,not Jesus

2) they are gathered from heaven. Mat 24 has the same dialog.
,and they are gathered by angels from heaven Only.

3) No dead are raised from graves

4) the parable of the 10 virgins has 5 left behind at the rapture. Postrib theory confuses that parable in that you guys have nowhere to go with those left behind. (they are believers,and waited with the others,and had lamps and oil.....just not enough)

5) that post trib "rapture" you refer to voids Jesus words at the last supper about us being with him,in houses,in heaven,at the marriage supper.

6) The AC KILLS ALL refusing the mark. So that right there destroys any hope in those 2 (lone postrib verses)....that are only referring to the second coming and angels gathering saints from heaven to return WITH JESUS as declared in rev 19

BTW,Rev 19 alone places the bride as the wife,IN HEAVEN,DURING THE GT.

Well your only verse,is pretrib,not post

popeye · Mar 17, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

Eschatology is fascinating.

Postrib s take the fun out,by making it about definitions,instead of what it really is,namely the gathering of his bride,and his Jewish covenant people.

"see his coming".

I got to tell you,that is the least of your worries. I will see him shortly at the rapture,and during the GT,And when we return with him at the end of the GT.

Besides,you will stay,because that is your choice. All postrobs will stay. All refusing the mark will be beheaded.
Your reward could be the martyrs reward,which is a good thing. But your faith(lack of),will cause you to miss the greatest event since the rapture of Christ.

Still pretty awesome to die for Jesus. Hope you change your mind,but I have never seen it happen.

Devonmcknight68 · Mar 17, 2016

popeye said:

Eschatology is fascinating.

Postrib s take the fun out,by making it about definitions,instead of what it really is,namely the gathering of his bride,and his Jewish covenant people.

"see his coming".

I got to tell you,that is the least of your worries. I will see him shortly at the rapture,and during the GT,And when we return with him at the end of the GT.

Besides,you will stay,because that is your choice. All postrobs will stay. All refusing the mark will be beheaded.
Your reward could be the martyrs reward,which is a good thing. But your faith(lack of),will cause you to miss the greatest event since the rapture of Christ.

Still pretty awesome to die for Jesus. Hope you change your mind,but I have never seen it happen.

i actually did thank you pop, I'll upload a video here shortly with my commentary bud, thank you for your help everyone

Devonmcknight68 · Mar 18, 2016

popeye said:

Eschatology is fascinating.

Postrib s take the fun out,by making it about definitions,instead of what it really is,namely the gathering of his bride,and his Jewish covenant people.

"see his coming".

I got to tell you,that is the least of your worries. I will see him shortly at the rapture,and during the GT,And when we return with him at the end of the GT.

Besides,you will stay,because that is your choice. All postrobs will stay. All refusing the mark will be beheaded.
Your reward could be the martyrs reward,which is a good thing. But your faith(lack of),will cause you to miss the greatest event since the rapture of Christ.

Still pretty awesome to die for Jesus. Hope you change your mind,but I have never seen it happen.

hear it is [video=youtube_share;byyDhHQ45Rk]http://youtu.be/byyDhHQ45Rk[/video]

mpaper345 · Mar 18, 2016

Devonmcknight68 said:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time(three and one half years).

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is something that you can sink your teeth in to,and is clear cut,and not obscure.

The Bible says that the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin addresses the world,and gives his speech that there is no personal God to help them,but technology,and people's devices,can solve their problems,and try to achieve peace on earth,which this happens halfway through the tribulation period.

Then the Bible says he makes war against the saints,and overcomes them,and wears them out,and when he accomplishes to scatter their power,then all things are finished,which would not happen before the tribulation,and would not happen during the first half of the tribulation,because he has not addressed the world yet,that he is the solution to have peace on earth,so he can only scatter their power during the last half of the tribulation,which the Bible says it was given to him to make war against the saints,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

God is allowing the world 7 years to cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark,and go against the truth,to the point of going against the saints,for God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and going against the saints testifies that they surely do not want God,and do not believe He exists,and do not want the people that claim Him to even be on the earth.

That is why the Bible says that if the days are not shortened that God allows the antichrist to rule,which is three and one half years,no flesh would be saved,but for the sake of the elect He shortened the days,proving the saints are on earth,when he rules the last half of the tribulation.

Question on post trib rapture.

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