Question on Virgin Mary

[zone]

Re: Question on Virgin Mary
Quote:
Originally Posted by charisenexcelcis

That interpretation is only "likely" if you already hold to the perpetual virginity of Christ. The even more difficult scripture is Matthew 1:25, "and was not knowing her until she gave birth to a Son." The "until" is the problem. If Joseph honored her virginity would it not just say, "and never knew her."

Nonsense. If we folllowed that reasoning then we can say that Michal, the daughter of Saul had children after her death. Because according to Scripture, she was childless UNTIL the day of her death.
__________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI


i agree with Char.

perhaps you don't understand the term knew

you say:
Nonsense. If we folllowed that reasoning then we can say that Michal, the daughter of Saul had children after her death. Because according to Scripture, she was childless UNTIL the day of her death.


Char isn't "reasoning" here. he knows that the term KNEW in this sense means had sex.

Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

z

 

[Lifelike]

I love this city! den denn e denn e den den den! den denn e denn e den den den deeeeerrn

 

[zone]

I really wish people would stop trying to glorify mary. It is SOOOOOO obvious that she is a mere human, and that she is not in ANNNNYYY way higher than any other human. We all receive rewards for our deeds, when Christ returns but she will be just a part of a multitude that will rejoice when he returns. She doesnt hold any special position. She found favour with her God (like anyone did that was faithful to the law and their God) and she was used to bring forth the King in this earth, but John the baptist was used to prepare the way, and Peter was used to take the Gospel to the gentiles. Thank you Jesus for 1st century Mary, the woman, the blessed virgin (lowercase V) who was PRIVELEDGED to be used of God to bear the Savior of the world. But please stop trying to bring her up to the level of the Godhead and beyond! Even one step lower than the Godhead - with everyone else finding a lower place - is still idol worship, and God HATES it. BEcause it lies against His character. We do NOT need to even give Mary another thought. She is in NO WAY able to benifit us, other than her life story here on Earth - if the Lord would reveal anything. She is in NO position in the heavenlies, in her own right, to effect things here on earth. We do not know what reward she has received, as a child of God, but i hope it was good, for her sake, God bless her. I LOVE how catholics worship Mary - in an ungodly way - and pretend that they are not. The devil is clever, in disguising what he is doing, pretending that what he is doing is not what he is REALLY doing - otherwise it would be obvious and discredited immediately. He needs to hid behind a series of mirrors, and use false images.

AMEN.
THAT'S THAT.
*leaves this thread*

 

[imoss]

How did I miss that post... thank you for the repost & I'll second that AMEN!!!!

 

[dscherck]

Re: Question on Virgin Mary
Quote:
Originally Posted by charisenexcelcis

That interpretation is only "likely" if you already hold to the perpetual virginity of Christ. The even more difficult scripture is Matthew 1:25, "and was not knowing her until she gave birth to a Son." The "until" is the problem. If Joseph honored her virginity would it not just say, "and never knew her."

Nonsense. If we folllowed that reasoning then we can say that Michal, the daughter of Saul had children after her death. Because according to Scripture, she was childless UNTIL the day of her death.
__________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI


i agree with Char.

perhaps you don't understand the term knew

you say:
Nonsense. If we folllowed that reasoning then we can say that Michal, the daughter of Saul had children after her death. Because according to Scripture, she was childless UNTIL the day of her death.


Char isn't "reasoning" here. he knows that the term KNEW in this sense means had sex.

Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

z

And you're not quite getting the fact that the verse in question states that he did not have sex with her up to the point of Jesus' birth. But it no way implies he did afterwards. To do so would have been an incredible sin according to Rabbinic law, and we know that Joseph was a righteous man according to the Scriptures.

 

[Ash_JFF]

And you're not quite getting the fact that the verse in question states that he did not have sex with her up to the point of Jesus' birth. But it no way implies he did afterwards. To do so would have been an incredible sin according to Rabbinic law, and we know that Joseph was a righteous man according to the Scriptures.

How is it a sin for Joseph to sleep with his own wife?? Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus, but not afterword. Jesus had siblings as scriptures testifies to: Luke 8:19-20

"Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, 'Your mother and brothers are standing outside wanting to see you.'"

Scripture doesn't lie.

And for those who worship Mary and/or place her on a higher level then us or even God: The scripture says nothing about worshiping Mary or of her being a means of intersession between us and God - only Jesus in the means of intersession and saying otherwise is blasphemy. Do you really think she even hears or cares about our prayers? She is in the eternal presence of God equally with all the other Christian and is most happy that way as other Christians are. Mary was PRIVILEGED to be choosen to give birth to Jesus. She is just a sinner as you and me. God showed mercy and grace when he choose her because as sinners we don't even deserve the air we breath. God had to pick someone and he picked Mary, just as God chooses other people for other things. Mary is no more loved or important then any other Christians. She needed to repent of her sins and accept Jesus as her Savior just as anybody else did/does.

 

[imoss]

Lord I pray for the religious barriers to be removed and those blinded by false doctrine have their blinders removed as you removed the blinders that were upon my husband. Lord break down defensiveness and pride and replace that with truth, regardless of who needs the truth herein. In Jesus name I pray, amen.

 

[Cleante]

dear Cleante,

a comment and a question if i may:

for those of us who do not promote Mary to Divinity within or as part of the GodHead; or as Co-Redemptrix; or as additional Mediator, the issue of Mary having remained a virgin or not wouldn't change essential Doctrine. i wonder if the issue is essential for Orthodox doctrine, as it is in Catholicism since that religion has Mary being Divine.

could you perhaps, in your own words, tell me what the Orthodox do reject from Catholicism?

just a couple of highlights would be good.

thanks!
*very interesed*
z

Z,

The Orthodox Church has never and never will view Mary as Co-Redemptrix. To my knowledge, neither has the Roman Catholic Church. That being said, I'll highlight a few differences between the Eastern and Western Church.

• The biggest difference is over politics following the decline of the Roman Empire and the changing cultures between the East and the West. The Orthodox Church rejects the authority of the Pope over their churches. The highest "position" in the church is the bishop and he only has authority over his diocese. For example, His Eminence Arch-Bishop Demetrios only has authority over the American diocese. He cannot tell a parish in Greece what to do.
• A minor difference is the bread used during the Eucharist. The Eastern church uses leavened bread while the Western Church uses unleavened bread.
• The Orthodox Church has a different view on Original Sin than the Western Church and thus does not accept the Immaculate Conception. Many Orthodox view this doctrine as unnecessary. Nonetheless, it is important to note that the Panagia remained free from all personal Sin, something we share in common with the Western Church and the early Reformers.
• Our Priests can marry before their ordination, but only unmarried priests can become bishops, thus leaders of the church.
• You will always find Icons in an Orthodox church and the Church will always be facing the East.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

And you're not quite getting the fact that the verse in question states that he did not have sex with her up to the point of Jesus' birth. But it no way implies he did afterwards. To do so would have been an incredible sin according to Rabbinic law, and we know that Joseph was a righteous man according to the Scriptures.

If I say to you, I didn't have sex with my wife until after she gave birth, wouldn't you see from context that I was waiting until the birth to have sex with her. I think the context is as simple as that. I am not saying that you can't understand it that way, I just think that would be the most likely understanding of the statement.
The Roman Catholic Church is indeed moving toward adding the title Co-redemptrix to their titles for Mary. I hope that this does not happen as it will drive a great wedge between the Protestants and the Catholics.

 

[motojojo]

You people are funny thinking that we worship Mary, I know what you think I was protestant and taught to protest just as you are. Nobody knows if Mary had sex with her husband so why debate something we will never know in this live. But here is one for you and I might be wrong, I think Mary the mother of Christ has brought more people to her Son than just about anyone. Her visions have encouraged more people to Jesus than anything or anybody. Don't worry someday you will all come under the authority of Peter and be Catholic. It's sad there is the One True Church, Catholic and then all this other things.

 

[Kool_uday85]

check that link about mary.............. thats the answer........ : http://www.carm.org/roman-catholicism

As for motojojo .. The catholic Church is based on a lie..... Peter was no pope... they considered him to be the pope long after he died...

Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it." .................................THE ROman Catholic uses the above verse very wrongly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

• Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
• 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
• 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; "petras" in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn't we?


Check this : Is Peter the rock on which the Church is built? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


In general for all information regarding Roman Catholicism check this: Is Peter the rock on which the Church is built? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


Check this also: Berean Beacon proclaims the Good News of Salvation, The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The President and founder is Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic Priest.

 

[Lifelike]

You people are funny thinking that we worship Mary, I know what you think I was protestant and taught to protest just as you are. Nobody knows if Mary had sex with her husband so why debate something we will never know in this live. But here is one for you and I might be wrong, I think Mary the mother of Christ has brought more people to her Son than just about anyone. Her visions have encouraged more people to Jesus than anything or anybody. Don't worry someday you will all come under the authority of Peter and be Catholic. It's sad there is the One True Church, Catholic and then all this other things.

No I think I'll cone under the authority of Christ and the one TRUE GOD.

 

[motojojo]

Someday you will be Catholic!!!

 

[Cleante]

You people are funny thinking that we worship Mary, I know what you think I was protestant and taught to protest just as you are. Nobody knows if Mary had sex with her husband so why debate something we will never know in this live. But here is one for you and I might be wrong, I think Mary the mother of Christ has brought more people to her Son than just about anyone. Her visions have encouraged more people to Jesus than anything or anybody. Don't worry someday you will all come under the authority of Peter and be Catholic. It's sad there is the One True Church, Catholic and then all this other things.

Motojojo,

I understand your frustration but that is no way to evangelize. From what I have observed, almost every person who posts on this forum already has their mind made up on the Truth. The disconnect becomes greater when we move from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches to the "low" churches. Even from High-church Protestants to Low-church protestants there is great disconnect.


Besides, I like my Greek Orthodox Church. I hope to see in my lifetime the reunification of the Eastern and Western Churches, though it probably will never happen. It was very unfortunate that the Great schism occurred.

 

[Lifelike]

Someday you will be Catholic!!!

I will never bow the knee to the so called "Vicar of Christ" the pope. He is a false christ as far as Im concerned. I will serve Jesus Christ. The papal hierarchy is a blasphemy.

 

[Kool_uday85]

Check my post above..... Check those links!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kool_uday85]

The Roman Catholic Church maintains that Mary retained her virginity after the birth of Christ. It says in paragraph 510 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

Mary "remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin" (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is "the handmaid of the Lord" (Lk 1:38).​

Did she remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus? Answering the question can have a strong effect on subsequent doctrines. As far as Protestant theology goes, it makes no difference if Mary remained a virgin or not. But, in Roman Catholic theology, it is very important since it elevates Mary to such a high degree that she seems almost like a goddess and gives her titles such as co-mediatrix, queen of heaven, mother of the church, etc. Therefore, it is necessary to examine the issue of her perpetual virginity in hopes of providing a more biblical position.
The word "virgin" in the New Testament is "parthenos" and it occurs 14 times. However, the word does not occur in Matt. 1:25. Instead, the literal Greek says, "and he knew her not until she gave birth to a son and called his name Jesus."
This would seem pretty straight forward that Joseph had no sexual relations with Mary until the birth of Christ and that after the birth of Jesus, they had relations. The word "until" is a preposition and means, "up to that time, before a specified time, to the extent that."

1. Up to the time of: "I ate until I was stuffed." This means that I ate and stopped when I was full and designates a change of action. "I ate up to the time that I was stuffed."
2. Before a specified time: "You can't go until you've paid the fine." This designates a condition required before a change can occur. "You can't go before you've paid the fine."
3. To the extent that: I worked until I was exhausted. Signifying an effect or condition as a result. "I worked to the point that I was exhausted."

In Matt. 1:25 it says that Joseph kept Mary a virgin until the birth of Jesus. The implication is that she stopped being a virgin after the birth of Christ when they consummated their marriage. But typical Roman Catholic apologists cannot accept this explanation. Instead, they say she remained a virgin and cite verses where "until" does not mean a change in condition. For example,

• 1 Cor. 15:25, "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet."
• Phil. 1:10, "so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ."
• 1 Tim. 6:14, "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."

In each verse, the word "until" does not designate cessation of the condition mentioned. In 1 Cor. 15:25 Jesus still reigns after he puts all enemies under his feet. In Phil. 1:10 we will still be blameless after the day of Christ. In 1 Tim. 6:14, we are to still keep the commandments of God after Jesus returns. Therefore, the Roman Catholics say that Mary retained her virginity because the word "until" does not necessitate that she stopped being a virgin.
Of course, is just as easy to find verses that show a change in condition.

• Acts 20:11, "And when he had gone back up, and had broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while, until daybreak, and so departed."
• Acts 23:12, "And when it was day, the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves under an oath, saying that they would neither eat nor drink until they had killed Paul."
• Rev. 7:3, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

In each verse above, the word "until" designates a change in condition/action. In Acts 20:11, Paul talked with them until daybreak and then left. In Acts 23:12, evil men would not eat or drink until after Paul had been killed. Rev. 7:3 prohibits harm to the earth, see, and trees, until the bond servants were sealed.
Therefore, we can see that the word "until" is used in different contexts and it is not appropriate to look to other persons to see how the word is used and transfer the meaning of that word to Matt. 1:25. What are we to do?
Words mean what they mean in context

Context is the most significant thing we must look at when determining the meetings of words. The context of Matt. 1:25 is,

"Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us." 24 And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus," (Matt. 1:22-25).​

The context deals with a virgin bearing a child. Virginity is here the important topic and Matthew clearly wants us to understand that Jesus was not the result of normal sexual relations between a husband and wife. This is why Mary's virginity is cited in prophecy in the Old Testament and its fulfillment in the New. The issue of her virginity is primary since Jesus is the son of God, the divine Messiah. Matthew then tells us that Joseph kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son. The most natural reading is to conclude that he kept her a virgin until Jesus was born; that is, she wasn't a virgin after Jesus was born because Joseph and she had sexual relations.
Conclusion

Is this conclusion airtight? No, it is not. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary. Whether or not they, and the Roman Catholic Church, are correct will ultimately be decided when we encounter the Lord and he reveals to us in heaven. But, whether or not Martin Luther, John Calvin, Roman Catholics, or anyone else believe Mary retained her virginity has no bearing on whether or not she did. We must always appeal to the primacy of Scripture and not to the opinions of theologians.
It is the opinion of CARM that Mary was a virgin until the birth of Jesus.
Objections Answered

Objection: While Jesus was on the cross, why didn't he commit his mother Mary to one of his brothers instead of John? If he had brothers and/or sisters, shouldn't Jesus have committed her to them? Since he didn't, therefore it must mean that he didn't have any brothers and sisters.
John 19:26-27, "When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her into his own household."

Answers:

1. "But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets may be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left Him and fled," (Matt. 26:56).
2. "Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered,'" (Matt. 26:31).
3. "I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons," (Psalm 69:6). Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm.
4. Matt. 13:55-56 says, "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
5. First, Jesus was separating himself from his mother, breaking the earthly ties (2 Cor. 5:16), and committing her to the one male disciple, John the Apostle, who was actually present and who apparently showed the greatest love for him by being there and possibly risking his own life in so doing. After all, everyone else had abandoned him.
6. In committing Mary to John, he was providing the best for Mary by not committing her to the siblings who had abandoned him. Also, he gave John a higher place than he gave to Peter regarding Mary. Notice that Jesus told Mary first to look to John, not John to Mary. This dispels any idea that Mary has any supremacy in the church. We later see in Acts that Mary took her place among (not over) the believers at a prayer meeting. "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers," (Acts 1:14).
7. Second, there is biblical evidence that Jesus had siblings.
8. Third, it is possible that, because He desired to have John take care of Mary (due to his faithfulness) instead of his brothers who had abandoned him (Matt. 26:31, 56), it was necessary for Jesus to specifically declare what he wanted. This declaration can be seen as evidence that Jesus was speaking to make clear his intention that John take care of Mary, not his own brothers.

 

[Kool_uday85]

Is Peter the rock on which the Church is built?

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it," (Matt. 16:18).​

The Roman Catholic Church Puts a great deal of emphasis on Peter and claims that Jesus said he would build his church on him.

1. Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." Christ, the "living Stone", thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 552).
2. "By the word "rock" the Saviour cannot have meant Himself, but only Peter, as is so much more apparent in Aramaic in which the same word (Kipha) is used for "Peter" and "rock". His statement then admits of but one explanation, namely, that He wishes to make Peter the head of the whole community of those who believed in Him as the true Messias; that through this foundation (Peter) the Kingdom of Christ would be unconquerable; that the spiritual guidance of the faithful was placed in the hands of Peter, as the special representative of Christ." (CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles).

The scripture reference to which the Roman Catholic Church attempts to substantiate its position is found in Matt. 16:18. Here it is in context.

"Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He began asking His disciples, saying, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ," (Matt. 16:15-20).​

There are problems with the Roman Catholic position. First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18 we see something that is not obvious in the English. "...you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church..." In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word "petros" is masculine; "petra" is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine "petros" but the feminine "petra." Let me illustrate by using the words "actor" and "actress": "You are the actor and with this actress I will make my movie." Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter, but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?
The feminine "petra" occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

• Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
• Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
• 1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
• 1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; "petras" in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn't we?
In addition, Greek dictionaries and lexicons give us further insight into the two Greek words under discussion:

1. Source: Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon (636). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
   1. Petros: "πέτρος, a stone, distinguished from πέτρα
   2. Petra: πέτρα , Ion. and Ep. πέτρη, , a rock, a ledge or shelf of rock, Od. 2. a rock, i.e. a rocky peak or ridge...Properly, πέτρα is a fixed rock, πέτρος a stone."
2. Source: Vine, W., & Bruce, F. (1981; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Vine's Expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (2:302). Old Tappan NJ: Revell.
   1. PETRA πέτρα , (4073)) denotes a mass of rock, as distinct from petros, a detached stone or boulder, or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved.

A stone is movable, unstable and this is exactly what we see with Peter, who doubted when he walked on water, who denied Jesus, and who was rebuked by Paul at Antioch.

• Matt. 14:29-30, "And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, "Lord, save me!"
• Luke 22:57-58, "But he denied it, saying, "Woman, I do not know Him." 58 And a little later, another saw him and said, "You are one of them too!" But Peter said, "Man, I am not!"
• Gal. 2:11,14 "But when Cephas [Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned...14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

Jesus, who knew the heart of Peter, was not saying that Peter, the movable and unstable stone, would be the immovable rock upon which the Church would be built. Rather, it would be built upon Jesus and it was this truth that Peter had affirmed what he said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," (Matt. 16:16). This is consistent with scripture elsewhere where the term rock is sometimes used in reference of God, but never of a man.

• Deut. 32:3, "The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice."
• 2 Sam. 22:2-3, "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; 3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge."
• Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."
• Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."
• Rom. 9:33, "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."

It should be obvious from the Word of God that the rock Jesus was referring to was not Peter, but himself.
The Aramaic Kepha

In contrast to this, in paragraph #2 at the beginning of this article, the Roman Catholic Church says that the rock cannot refer to Jesus, "but only Peter, as is so much more apparent in Aramaic in which the same word (Kipha) is used for 'Peter' and 'rock'." The problem is that the text is not in Aramaic, but Greek. Since we do not have the Aramaic text, it is not proper to refer to it as proof of the Roman Catholic position. We have to ask ourselves why the Roman Catholic Church would resort to using something that we don't have: the aramaic text. Is it because their argument is not supported by the Greek and so they must infer something from a text we don't possess?
Furthermore, in John 1:42 it says, "He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him, and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you shall be called Cephas," (which is translated Peter)." The word "Peter" here is petros, not petra. It is used to elucidate the Aramaic kephas which is not a name in Aramaic.

"Except in Jn. 1:42, where it is used to elucidate Aramaic kēphás, Pétros is used in the NT only as a name for Simon Peter....The translation supports the view that Kēphás is not a proper name, since one does not usually translate proper names."1​

Jesus is the rock on which the church is built

The truth is that the only foundation is Jesus. The only rock of truth is Jesus Christ and that we, as his redeemed, need to keep our eyes on him. We are to look to no one else as the foundation, the source, or the hope on which the church is built. The Church is built upon Jesus, not Peter.

"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ," (1 Cor. 3:11).
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1. Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. (1995, c1985). Theological dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Theologisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament. (835). Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans.

 

[Saved_by_grace]

oye, mother of their God, does that philosophically make sense to anyone? How can we look at the eternality of Jesus the son, yes He in the incarnation, He bore flesh, but when that statment is made, it makes it sound like God can be born in a sense that He was created.

 

[Saved_by_grace]

Especially when Jesus goes on to say "who is my mother, who is my brother? is it not he who does the will of my Father.