Question on Virgin Mary

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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Cleante, you said: The Greek word used here and in other instances where Jesus' "Brothers" are mentioned is "Adelphos" Adelphos can mean brother, but it can and was used numerous times also for "kinsmen", "cousin", "fellow countryman", and "fellow believer" You can see examples of this in many places such as Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12;, etc. Lot for instances was the nephew of Abraham (see Genesis 11:27-31) yet the term "adelphos" is used for him in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. So one needs to look closely to see whether these "brothers" of Jesus are anywhere identified as the children of Mary. In fact, if one looks closely at the Scriptures, you will find that NOWHERE is Mary stated to be the mother of anyone but Jesus.

Are you speaking of the Septuagint Old Testament?
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Cleante, you wrote: You can see this in Acts 1:14, "Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers". Some ancient translations even add the conjunctive "syn" to further clarify things so that you get "Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers" If she was their mother as well there would be no need to make a distinction in the texts.

I noticed that you said translations, not manuscripts. Which ancient translations would that be?
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
Cleante, you wrote: Scripture disagrees with you. The Archangel Gabriel addresses her with the title of "kecharitomene" (full of grace). This is a unique title that is in the perfect passive participle of "charitoo" What this means is that essentially the Archangel was addressing her as "Hail you who are filled with a grace that both fills you presently and has always been with you" In other words, she was the recipient of grace that predates her meeting the angel. The early Christians have always taught that she never sinned in her life, and while the East and West do have minor theological differences as to when this grace arrived, both of them concur that the Theotokos did not sin during her life.
I would see this as an intensive rather than a consummative, emphasising the degree of grace rather than the perfection of it. Scripture says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

She had no sins to repent. But she did have reason to call Jesus her saviour. It was because of her unique role in salvation history, to be the new Eve, that she was saved before she was even born. As an analogy, if you think of sin as a deep pit. Whereas you and I fell into the pit and needed to be pulled out, Mary was stopped right before she even fell in. She was saved from falling in. And the Archangel Gabriel acknowledged that special grace she was given in the annunciation.
The idea of Mary being a "new Eve" is not supported by scripture. It is also, to me, a little creepy since Jesus is the new Adam.
I believe that Mary, with the possible exception of John the Baptist, was the greatest of mankind, save Jesus. I believe that what God did through her is astonishing and awe-inspiring. But I believe that she, like all of us, needed forgiveness of sins and salvation on the same basis. There are no "second class" Christians. We are all saints.
 
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Lord I pray for the religious barriers to be removed and those blinded by false doctrine have their blinders removed as you removed the blinders that were upon my husband. Lord break down defensiveness and pride and replace that with truth, regardless of who needs the truth herein. In Jesus name I pray, amen.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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Cleante, you said: The Greek word used here and in other instances where Jesus' "Brothers" are mentioned is "Adelphos" Adelphos can mean brother, but it can and was used numerous times also for "kinsmen", "cousin", "fellow countryman", and "fellow believer" You can see examples of this in many places such as Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12;, etc. Lot for instances was the nephew of Abraham (see Genesis 11:27-31) yet the term "adelphos" is used for him in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. So one needs to look closely to see whether these "brothers" of Jesus are anywhere identified as the children of Mary. In fact, if one looks closely at the Scriptures, you will find that NOWHERE is Mary stated to be the mother of anyone but Jesus.

Are you speaking of the Septuagint Old Testament?
You mean the one Our Lord most frequently quoted from? Of course!
 
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Kool_uday85

Guest
Also Kool_uday85, In response to your question about tradition, read 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter. - 2 Thessalonians 2:15


This letter is from Paul, Silas, and Timothy.
We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thessalonians 1:1

This clearly was by Paul and not Peter and it was to the Church in Thessalonica. SO are you trying to tell me that all the things you do as part of your tradition is because this verse is linked to it?????? How?
Infact the church of Thessalonica existed much before the Roman Catholic Chruch.. I need some genuine thing.. Your trying to use a verse that doesn't give any details of the things that were passed in person and fitting your traditions there... Or well thats an empty space, you can add what you think as to make it part of the things taught there?????? Ok Well, if it was taught there... Would they contradict themselves in their letters?????? (Read my reply to dscherck)

I can say what the bible says about traditions of men...

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. - Colossians 2: 8
 

Cleante

Senior Member
May 7, 2010
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Cleante, you wrote: Scripture disagrees with you. The Archangel Gabriel addresses her with the title of "kecharitomene" (full of grace). This is a unique title that is in the perfect passive participle of "charitoo" What this means is that essentially the Archangel was addressing her as "Hail you who are filled with a grace that both fills you presently and has always been with you" In other words, she was the recipient of grace that predates her meeting the angel. The early Christians have always taught that she never sinned in her life, and while the East and West do have minor theological differences as to when this grace arrived, both of them concur that the Theotokos did not sin during her life.
I would see this as an intensive rather than a consummative, emphasising the degree of grace rather than the perfection of it. Scripture says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

She had no sins to repent. But she did have reason to call Jesus her saviour. It was because of her unique role in salvation history, to be the new Eve, that she was saved before she was even born. As an analogy, if you think of sin as a deep pit. Whereas you and I fell into the pit and needed to be pulled out, Mary was stopped right before she even fell in. She was saved from falling in. And the Archangel Gabriel acknowledged that special grace she was given in the annunciation.
The idea of Mary being a "new Eve" is not supported by scripture. It is also, to me, a little creepy since Jesus is the new Adam.
I believe that Mary, with the possible exception of John the Baptist, was the greatest of mankind, save Jesus. I believe that what God did through her is astonishing and awe-inspiring. But I believe that she, like all of us, needed forgiveness of sins and salvation on the same basis. There are no "second class" Christians. We are all saints.
Charis,

You're mistaken. I didn't write any of that. :p
 
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Kool_uday85

Guest
Also Kool_uday85, In response to your question about tradition, read 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

In addition to the above post of mine..... I am curious if you believe this verse is true?

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. - 1 Corinthians 4:6

not to think beyond what is written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
not to think beyond what is written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

EVERY WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not by One word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its EVERY WORD!!!! EVERY WORD!!! EVERY WORD!!!!

Thats the secret! Its the whole bible! not a verse taken out there.. All the words should be in complete support of anything...


 
Feb 27, 2007
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Its nice to pray for one another... Thank you! but only to the Father in Jesus name..... If its asking through Mary or any other 3rd party.. Please dont pray!
I'm just going to throw in a HUGE AMEN.

Question what you are taught & from those who are called to give rebuke in Jesus name with the word of God their back up please dont forget the Love. It is only because of anothers rebuke that one would ever question what they hold as truth. Bless the Lord oh my soul! For those who you post & post & post to try to show them freedom in a personal relationship in Christ & they refuse to read the very word of God that testifies to their err... warn them twice then wash your hands of them for it definitely takes one to a place where they dont want to be in debate. A place of anger & fruseration. I write this with MUCH MUCH MUCH experience lol! I dont anticipate the catholics who've posted within this thread doing anything other than defending their church because they are on the defensive and therefore not actually hearing or rather reading what Gods word says about certain traditions.

Hopefully there are those on here who are Catholics, who would read & receive the truth of scripture over the Church's teachings... that could be said about any denomination. I just find the Catholic church was very very very ALARMING to me as a believer. I generally embrase any church that holds Christ as risen Lord as thats what its all about. I've never felt such rejection within my spirit as I did when the priest kissed a statue and bowed to another... Perhaps I just dont understand... I'm pretty sure I dont want to.

I thank God my husband picked up his Bible & held it as truth and didnt continue just going through the Catholic motions.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Let us pray and work towards this worthy goal! I was privileged to visit an Antiochian Orthodox parish this weekend for Divine Liturgy and it made my heart ache that I could not participate in the Eucharist there because of this schism between the Catholic and Orthodox churches. May the Lord work in our hearts and in the hearts of our Patriarchs, bishops, priests, and laypeople to bring us into communion once more!

neither of you need worry.
The Eastern Orthodox and the Vatican are, as we speak, feverishly working to bring you together.

better make sure it's really what you want.
 
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Aug 17, 2007
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I'm considering quitting this chat forever and going to another chat that is more friendly towards Catholics.
 
Aug 17, 2007
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Kool_uday85, one last thing, by shouting at me like that. I take it as an attack and that you hate me just only because I'm Catholic, but to tell you the truth I have nothing to lose by it. I never attack anyone else's church or beliefs. This is the last time you will see me.
 
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greatkraw

Guest
Kool_uday85, one last thing, by shouting at me like that. I take it as an attack and that you hate me just only because I'm Catholic, but to tell you the truth I have nothing to lose by it. I never attack anyone else's church or beliefs. This is the last time you will see me.
see the light and give up your popery

as the scripture says

call no man father
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
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dscherck, I'm curious! I'm curious if you believe that the blood of Jesus has a limitation? Purgatory to Purge (cleanse), a belief by the catholic church that is there?

Instead, they saw thatGod had givenme (Paul) the responsibility of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as he had given Peter the responsibility of preaching to the Jews. 8 For the same God who worked through Peter as the apostle to the Jews also worked through me as the apostle to the Gentiles. - Galatians 2:7-8

I am curious whether you believe the above verse as true ?
How could God change the responsibility at one time (If you go by saying that Jesus told peter was some kind of rock for the church)???????
Was God lying? or changing responsibilities? or his word changes??? one time saying something (as you believe he did) and then another time saying something else as Galatians says??

o_O

So, because Our Lord sent Paul to the gentiles He's not allowed to have Peter lead His Church? Is that what you're implying? It seems to me that Our Lord told Peter to "feed my sheep" and "strengthen your brothers". Are you saying that Peter was incapable of preaching to the Jews and leading Christ's Church? Are you implying that Paul was the only apostle authorized to preach to the Gentiles? I'munsure of whatyour point is my dear brother.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
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neither of you need worry.
The Eastern Orthodox and the Vatican are, as we speak, feverishly working to bring you together.

better make sure it's really what you want.
It is indeed! The Lord did not wish for us to be separate, but rather united. He started one Church, not thousands of denominations. But for the sinfulness and weakness of men, we would still all be united in one Church. That said, even through our failings Our Lord still will make things work to His glory. I am Catholic now, but I was raised as a Protestant. And indeed, it was because of the great reverence and love my beloved grandmother (who is Southern Baptist) for the Scriptures that I too learned to love to read the Scriptures. My Protestant upbringing helped me to first get to know Our Lord God Jesus Christ. And I still look up to the example of my grandmother as well as the examples of my grand-aunts who profess a love of Christ that is breathtaking in their beauty. I am eternally grateful that they instilled a love of Our Lord in my heart and a love of the Scriptures. And it was because of the Scriptures that I was lead finally to come into full communion with the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is the most scripture loving church I have ever been privileged to attend. I am constantly amazed and overjoyed to realize things like, "Hey! This hymn is based on one of the psalms!" or "This is from one of the minor prophets!" Or "Hey! The choirs of angels sang this in one of Isaiah's visions!"

I love how, prior to the reading of the Gospel during the liturgy, the deacon will cry out, "WISDOM! Be attentive!" to emphasize just how important and blessed it is to hear the Gospel of the Lord! And in fact, I love how that at EVERY Catholic Mass/Divine Liturgy the Gospel is read. If you think about it, with all the Catholic/Orthodox parishes world wide, that would mean that the Gospel is being proclaimed somewhere in the world no matter what time of day! Isn't that wonderful!

:D

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
see the light and give up your popery

as the scripture says

call no man father
Do you call no one "teacher" or "master" either? What do your children call you?
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0

In addition to the above post of mine..... I am curious if you believe this verse is true?

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. - 1 Corinthians 4:6

not to think beyond what is written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
not to think beyond what is written!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

EVERY WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not by One word!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its EVERY WORD!!!! EVERY WORD!!! EVERY WORD!!!!

Thats the secret! Its the whole bible! not a verse taken out there.. All the words should be in complete support of anything...


One wonders then, why did Martin Luther remove books from the Bible?
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
Charis,

You're mistaken. I didn't write any of that. :p
Yeah, that would be me. Though in Charis' defense, I did use a reference I got from a local Antiochian Orthodox parish. :) So it was a somewhat Eastern argument for part. :D
 
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Kool_uday85

Guest
Kool_uday85, one last thing, by shouting at me like that. I take it as an attack and that you hate me just only because I'm Catholic, but to tell you the truth I have nothing to lose by it. I never attack anyone else's church or beliefs. This is the last time you will see me.

Dear Shyness,

Please don't take my say as any sort of attack.... nothing is personal... It was just a conversation about the Catholic Church and their practices.. You certainly are a very precious child of God.. God created us to know him more and He gave us the bible so that we know the truth and things correctly concerning Him and beliefs. The right way to worship, correct doctrines and beliefs about Him and above all the Love of God for us by sending His only begotten Son Jesus to die for us to be made right with God and that we know God by having a personal relationship with God through Jesus. Everything is important in our relationship with God.. thats why Jesus says himself...

But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” - Matthew 4:4

The EVERY WORD thing is so true... God knew what would happen if man didn't live by every word....
Every word is there in the bible as we see today for a very important reason....

I don't hate you. Never could I think of hating you... I love you in Jesus Christ. In all honesty and truth, I see you as my elder brother.. (I've never gotten personal in a public forum, but I am here.....) Its so nice to have you here. In fact I was going through your profile and saw that you love God so much. There is nothing greater than love. Let me tell you.... We are all are learning in life.. And God teaches us through the word..

I am saying this in all honesty..... I am sure you know in your heart..... When you were giving an argument or some kind of say to justify, it was just as if one was getting something to support the beliefs you wanted to support.. Just that it had to be supported for the sake of it being shown as true..

Something like this was the attitude: I'm Catholic, and I'm meant to be catholic.. So whatever the catholic church says is truth and nothing but the truth... Anyone who says that anything is against that is against me.. Its all directed to me. I consider it as an attack... and Well, whatever the Catholic Church says is my truth, I am born to be catholic and those are my beliefs.. I love Jesus also and all thing of tradition.... both.... so whatever it is.. I am not gonna accept anything that varies to doesn't support my beliefs... I dont care... Whatever is truth according to you and not according to me.. be is so... Don't say anything about what I believe or the church's beliefs.. Anything else is all good. This church is like from 2000 years and so its true.. all others came later.. so well thats all not original..... thats it!

What if you said.. Well, let me see what you have to say... In such a way as to not just support something just for the sake of supporting something but being like the bereans..

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. - Acts 17:11

see even God himself supports the attitude of being like the bereans......

For all of you that are reading this message.... I tell you... Taste and see that the Lord is Good.. Be like the bereans.... it doesn't hurt... In fact we learn more and God talks to us through His inspired written word, the Bible.....

When I die, and when God judges me, I wont point fingers to others or any church or anything because of what I believe or have done. God will look at me and deal with me directly. If God holds me responsible or has anything against my belief... I will be solely accountable for ALL my doings and beliefs and all things he holds me responsible for.....

We all are learning, and sometimes we are not quite right in all things.. But through the Word of God we know whats correct...


As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. - Proverbs 27:17


So we are to sharpen one another in truth. This truth comes from God as shown in His word the bible.. and thats again in Love. :)... One may feel a little un-easy.. but then we learn from Gods word right? Although we may not be used to something? We learn and get to know the right things, isn't it?

With knowledge and understanding that comes from God we are able to discern and know the truth through the Spirit of God in Jesus...

I encourage all of you to read your bible and seek the Lord Jesus at All times.

Shyness, please don't take anything as any attack... God never calls anyone catholic or any label. We call ourself by labels when we chose to identify our selves to a particular group or set of belief..... God wants all people to Know him through His Son Jesus who is God himself... None of us are born with a label. What counts is that we identify ourself in Jesus and live in Jesus learning from His word the bible and growing everyday ! :) God bless you Shyness in Jesus name and I look forward to talking to you on chat perhaps.. what say? :) Don't go, please stay!