The "word" is metaphorical and when applied to christ and expresses that he is the one who speaks the words and sayings of God. We would not take the expression the 'hand of the King' in relation to one of the kings highest subjects to mean that the servant and 'hand of the king' is the King himself, likewise, Jesus being the 'word' of God does not necessitate that he be God himself, even John 1:1 does not express this as no modern scholar, or even layperson would admit that the 'word' was the God that he was 'with'.
Questions about JW’s
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When I first got saved in the Dallas County Jail in 1981 I was reading anything I could find about the bible. I read this idea from something (probably a JW tract) and for a minute I thought it was in the bible. It did not take long reading the scriptures to know that was not true but these things are readily accepted by people who do not read the bible.
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1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
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What scripture teaches that Solomon, and all of mankind were created before God made the Heavens and the earth? What scripture teaches, as you claimed, that the "Book of Life was already known like the Book of Judgement before God ever Spoke the first thing into existence". It seems to me that you're making your theology up as you go along.
NO scripture teaches that the LORD, is the WORD as you claim, if I'm wrong please point me to the scripture. The Father is the creator of all according to scripture and Jesus is the mediator of creation and the "one through all things were created" and the Father being the source of creation. Hebrews 1:1,2
Heb 1:1,2 - "Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets.And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe." - NLT
1 Corin 8:6 - "But for us, There is one God, the Father, by whom all things were created, and for whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created," - NLT
The Hebrew word Qanah has a root word to mean create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase. Hence why so many translations translate this word to "create" or even "possessed" in the sense of acquiring something new. To add, the LXX translates the word here to "made" as in "God made me". Therefore there can be no confusion in the sense this word is meant to be used.
God, according to Prov 8:22 created/made/acquired/came into possession of Wisdom!
In Proverbs 8:12, Wisdom is introduced as speaking, we know this because of the "I, Wisdom", a common introductory phrase used to let readers know who is speaking which is seen on 5 occasions in the book of Daniel by Daniel and on numerous occasion in the Book of Revelation by John. Therefore it is not Solomon speaking as you claim but rather Wisdom, identified by the introductory formula "I, wisdom".
This idea is also seen in the early church fathers (Clement especially), who believed that Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8 is being personified, thus is speaking as its own personal being. They NEVER related this verse in any sense to Solomon and him suggesting that he and man was created before the universe. On top of this, even modern-day scholars say Proverbs 8:12-onward is in relation to the Wisdom of God being personified, and NONE make your claim that Prov 8 is in relation to man's prehuman existence.
The early church father disagree with you.
Modern-day Trinitarian scholars disagree with you.
The grammar disagrees with you.
NO scripture teaches that the LORD, is the WORD as you claim, if I'm wrong please point me to the scripture. The Father is the creator of all according to scripture and Jesus is the mediator of creation and the "one through all things were created" and the Father being the source of creation. Hebrews 1:1,2
Heb 1:1,2 - "Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets.And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe." - NLT
1 Corin 8:6 - "But for us, There is one God, the Father, by whom all things were created, and for whom we live. And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created," - NLT
The Hebrew word Qanah has a root word to mean create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase. Hence why so many translations translate this word to "create" or even "possessed" in the sense of acquiring something new. To add, the LXX translates the word here to "made" as in "God made me". Therefore there can be no confusion in the sense this word is meant to be used.
God, according to Prov 8:22 created/made/acquired/came into possession of Wisdom!
In Proverbs 8:12, Wisdom is introduced as speaking, we know this because of the "I, Wisdom", a common introductory phrase used to let readers know who is speaking which is seen on 5 occasions in the book of Daniel by Daniel and on numerous occasion in the Book of Revelation by John. Therefore it is not Solomon speaking as you claim but rather Wisdom, identified by the introductory formula "I, wisdom".
This idea is also seen in the early church fathers (Clement especially), who believed that Wisdom of God in Proverbs 8 is being personified, thus is speaking as its own personal being. They NEVER related this verse in any sense to Solomon and him suggesting that he and man was created before the universe. On top of this, even modern-day scholars say Proverbs 8:12-onward is in relation to the Wisdom of God being personified, and NONE make your claim that Prov 8 is in relation to man's prehuman existence.
The early church father disagree with you.
Modern-day Trinitarian scholars disagree with you.
The grammar disagrees with you.
Verse 4 and Verse 5 is a continuation of what is being stated here:
4 ((These are the generations)) of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Verse 4 clearly begins with:
((These are the generations))
And then everything else in Verse 4 and 5 relates to ((These are the generations))
And specifically notice from Verse 5:
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:
^
BEFORE it was in the Earth and before it GREW: (so it's GENERATIONS even before it was in the Earth and GREW!
And then explains why God did this in GENERATIONS because God had not made it rain and no man to till the ground!
It's rather plain and simple unless you are trying to make it unclear!
Before those who created the idea of Jehova Witnesses and decided to create their own Bible, there were Church Fathers who had access to the immediate writings being passed down. This is their surmation:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
The WORD according to OUR Church Fathers has been here from the very Beginning!
Maybe you should study the Church Fathers, you might not be so off on your misinterpretations!
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A mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance
to reconcile them, viz: an intercessor.
Here's a question that someone wrote in to the questions from readers
section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:
"Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)"
The answer given in the magazine is YES.
The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of the Society's
publication titled "Aid To Bible Understanding" where it says that the
144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
(1John 2:1)
Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of
the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the
rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.
It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell
direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the
Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.
So then; when a JW either defects or is disfellowshipped, their pipeline to
the mediator is broken, and they right quick lose all contact with God; thus
placing themselves in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of
Revelation.
Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for
non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation
with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.
In other words: Christ's mediation for rank and file JWs as per 1Tim 2:5 is
accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's
association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of
humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts
humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with
God.
NOTE: I've had JWs tell me that the Watchtower magazine isn't an authority
in matters of faith and practice. But the Jan 1, 1942 issue of the magazine,
on page 5, speaks for itself as a trustworthy source of Watchtower Society
theology by saying:
"Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or
expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all. Those who
believe that God uses the Watchtower as a means of communicating to his
people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The
Watchtower."
In other words: the haulers of water and the hewers of wood-- John Q and
Jane Doe rank and file --are not only expected to know what's in the
Watchtower magazine, but they're also required to accept it as the God's
truth.
_
A mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance
to reconcile them, viz: an intercessor.
Here's a question that someone wrote in to the questions from readers
section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:
"Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)"
The answer given in the magazine is YES.
The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of the Society's
publication titled "Aid To Bible Understanding" where it says that the
144,000 are the only ones who have the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
(1John 2:1)
Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of
the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the
rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.
It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell
direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the
Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.
So then; when a JW either defects or is disfellowshipped, their pipeline to
the mediator is broken, and they right quick lose all contact with God; thus
placing themselves in grave danger of the calamities depicted in the book of
Revelation.
Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for
non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation
with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.
In other words: Christ's mediation for rank and file JWs as per 1Tim 2:5 is
accomplished via a chain of communication that begins with Christ's
association with the faithful and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of
humanity. Removing the faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts
humanity off from Christ; thus leaving them with no way to reconcile with
God.
NOTE: I've had JWs tell me that the Watchtower magazine isn't an authority
in matters of faith and practice. But the Jan 1, 1942 issue of the magazine,
on page 5, speaks for itself as a trustworthy source of Watchtower Society
theology by saying:
"Those who are convinced that The Watchtower is publishing the opinion or
expression of a man should not waste time in looking at it at all. Those who
believe that God uses the Watchtower as a means of communicating to his
people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The
Watchtower."
In other words: the haulers of water and the hewers of wood-- John Q and
Jane Doe rank and file --are not only expected to know what's in the
Watchtower magazine, but they're also required to accept it as the God's
truth.
_
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I didn't mention the Trinity, I said "Trinitarian scholars". That's not bringing up the topic of the trinity, the majority of scholars today are trinirarians, I don't get what the issue is with me saying this
Yes, Solomon was the wisest man, before Jesus. Even than modern scholars, you're correct Yet, I also appealed to the church fathers such as Clement who also believed that Wisdom is being personified in Provs 8.
Again, Solomon never states that its himself and mankind who were created before all creation, this idea is nonsensical and not support in scripture, the same as your idea that the book of life and death was written before the universe began, it's bad theology and unscriptural.
It appears you believe whatever thought pops up into your head based on the things you've told me so far as you've provided no scriptural bases for anything you've expressed.
The fact remain, Wisdom is speaking from v12, along with the introductory formula "I, Wisdom", Wisdom constantly refers to itself with personal pronouns when speaking throughout Prov 8, just as a person would! In v22 Wisdom said it was created/made/produced by God. Clement and other church fathers linked Christ to the Wisdom of God, scripture itself also names Jesus the Wisdom of God. Since your theology (which I assume is Trinitarianism) can have no place with Gods eternal wisdom to be created as I would agree, you make up unscriptural jargon to explain the verse, such as Solomon being "made" before the universe, which it utter twaddle.
Yes, Solomon was the wisest man, before Jesus. Even than modern scholars, you're correct Yet, I also appealed to the church fathers such as Clement who also believed that Wisdom is being personified in Provs 8.
Again, Solomon never states that its himself and mankind who were created before all creation, this idea is nonsensical and not support in scripture, the same as your idea that the book of life and death was written before the universe began, it's bad theology and unscriptural.
It appears you believe whatever thought pops up into your head based on the things you've told me so far as you've provided no scriptural bases for anything you've expressed.
The fact remain, Wisdom is speaking from v12, along with the introductory formula "I, Wisdom", Wisdom constantly refers to itself with personal pronouns when speaking throughout Prov 8, just as a person would! In v22 Wisdom said it was created/made/produced by God. Clement and other church fathers linked Christ to the Wisdom of God, scripture itself also names Jesus the Wisdom of God. Since your theology (which I assume is Trinitarianism) can have no place with Gods eternal wisdom to be created as I would agree, you make up unscriptural jargon to explain the verse, such as Solomon being "made" before the universe, which it utter twaddle.
You mention the early church fathers and then state "this is their surmation" but only the quote the words of Theophilus, it is rare to find agreement or a group of Early church fathers agreeing 100% on much. The early church fathers writings are a good resource but must not be relied on for scriptural truth, since most are not in agreement and many contradict each other, also, it was stated by Paul that after his 'going away' wolves would enter the flock and mislead people, "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness" (Acts 20:29).
The way you and even Theophilus speak implies God was one person who begat, the word (the Son), the second person of the trinity (in your belief), this goes against what the trinity that teaches, namely that God is one being who is three separate persons.
The way you and even Theophilus speak implies God was one person who begat, the word (the Son), the second person of the trinity (in your belief), this goes against what the trinity that teaches, namely that God is one being who is three separate persons.
Do you intend to answer the points I made that will aid in answering the questions you asked me?
Here there are again:
I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that states 'God subjected all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? <----- Please answer. If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer
When it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things', as in, 'every single thing'? <--- Please answer. If so, then is Jesus the first murder? <---- Please answer
According to bible chronology, how long ago was Adam created, which would have been roughly the same time frame of the creation of the earth and universe right? How long approximately? I personally believe Adam was created approximately 6000 years ago.
In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father? If so, then do agree with what the text says when it states 'long ago, God (namely the Father) spoke to the Israelites forefathers..but in the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son', that the Father spoke in OT times, but in the NT times spoke by means of his Son Jesus. ?
Here there are again:
I showed you Hebrews 2:8 that states 'God subjected all things under man, and left NOTHING NOT subject to him', and stated that using your reasoning that 'nothing' means absolutely 'nothing', does it mean that God and the angels were subjected to man? <----- Please answer. If not, then does 'nothing' here mean absolutely 'nothing'? <----- Please answer
When it states Jesus is "first in all things" in Col 1:18, does the "all things" literally mean 'all things', as in, 'every single thing'? <--- Please answer. If so, then is Jesus the first murder? <---- Please answer
According to bible chronology, how long ago was Adam created, which would have been roughly the same time frame of the creation of the earth and universe right? How long approximately? I personally believe Adam was created approximately 6000 years ago.
In Hebrews 1:1-5, is the 'God' who is mentioned in v1 as having a Son ("his Son" v1), and being the 'Father' to this son in v5 ("
which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father") the first person of the trinity the Father? If so, then do agree with what the text says when it states 'long ago, God (namely the Father) spoke to the Israelites forefathers..but in the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son', that the Father spoke in OT times, but in the NT times spoke by means of his Son Jesus. ?
They do, you simply need to answer the questions I asked truthfully and humbly to see this. You have yet to respond to my response in relation to your disagreement on this matter in my post 249. You took it upon yourself to answer my questions but only answered one question, agreeing that Satan is a god, if you can, please answer the other questions that you wrongfully ignored:
Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 (check the original Hebrew of Ps 8:5 and notice the word "Elohim" and then compare to what is said in Hebrews 2:8)?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?
Was Moses "God to Pharaoh" according to Exo 7:1?
Are angels called Elohim/gods according to Psalms 8:5 (check the original Hebrew of Ps 8:5 and notice the word "Elohim" and then compare to what is said in Hebrews 2:8)?
Did Jesus tell some Jews "you are gods" in John 10:34?
Did Paul state there are "many gods" in 1 Cor 8:5?
You seem to gloss over one small statement. “No one comes to the Father, but by me.” You said “Jesus mirrored the Father so perfectly as to be akin to seeing the Father.“
To come in ones name declares they have the authority and perfect will of the one they represent. So perfect that Jesus is now at the right hand of God the Father. He will return, (not as the watchtower has falsely declared) and we will be ready, or we wont.
It’s not about who can quote more scripture verses. Satan can quote and preach better than most all on this site. Judas is a good example of knowing, but not knowing.
The crux of the matter is what one thinks of Jesus. “And Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, ” Who do people say I am?” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others say you are one of of the prophets.” “But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.”…
WE will all have to answer that same question. No amount of scripture reference or knowledge, or good deeds matter unless we have the correct answer to that one question. How accurate is your opinion of Him?
We can hide behind words, but the way you and I reply to that very same question determines our life on this earth, and eternity. Until we have peace with God (through Jesus), we can not have the peace of God.
To come in ones name declares they have the authority and perfect will of the one they represent. So perfect that Jesus is now at the right hand of God the Father. He will return, (not as the watchtower has falsely declared) and we will be ready, or we wont.
It’s not about who can quote more scripture verses. Satan can quote and preach better than most all on this site. Judas is a good example of knowing, but not knowing.
The crux of the matter is what one thinks of Jesus. “And Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, ” Who do people say I am?” They answered, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others say you are one of of the prophets.” “But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.”…
WE will all have to answer that same question. No amount of scripture reference or knowledge, or good deeds matter unless we have the correct answer to that one question. How accurate is your opinion of Him?
We can hide behind words, but the way you and I reply to that very same question determines our life on this earth, and eternity. Until we have peace with God (through Jesus), we can not have the peace of God.
I'm aware this question was directed to NWL and not me. But just a FYI, the word Christ does not infer one is God or part of a Triune God. Christ simply means "messiah/anointed one", whom the Jews were expecting to arrive. The Jews certainly did not expect the Messiah to be God. Therefore by Paul's response of calling Jesus Messiah or Christ and not answering "I believe you are God" we know thats not what's being conveyed across to is.
If one suggests that because he was called the Christ then he must therefore be the one God is simply reading into the text as the text does not state this.
I'm sure NWL accepts Jesus as Christ as I do to.
Think what you desire, we are all blessed with this ability. However, be accurate in what you think. And if you use the actual Hebrew text, anyone with a clue knows this is Solomon speaking about how God the Creator knew him before even the first thing came into existence. If anything, to think this is about Jesus, reveals pure ignorance and understanding and shows a true lack of knowledge toward the Ancient Hebrew Language!
