Questions about the Fall

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M

Miri

Guest
#21
1. Presuming angels had free will, what would have caused 1/3 to follow Satan into rebellion?

A. It IS a presumption that angels had free will; so you'd first have to get over that hurdle with the Calvinists.

B. I'm not a Calvinist, and I do believe the angels had some degree of free will, so I would give an answer about epistemic distance and the normal ruination of pride.

- Many Christian philosophers believe God's creatures are made with varying degrees of epistemic distance from God.
- With this as a premise, we might conclude angels were created at a precise epistemic distance which would make rebellion so absurd as to be unlikely, and completely unforgivable.... but yet still be possible.
- If it is even possible for an angel to freely rebel, then pride could take over any being that is able to have pride and rebel.

2. Why didn’t God come up with a plan for the angels to be saved?

A. I think the Calvinist view would be that saving the fallen angels was not part of God's sovereign plan, and it did not please him to do so.
Even as an Arminian, I think this is well within God's sovereignty... he doesn't owe his creation anything.

B. On the Arminian view, I would suggest the fallen angels are fallen to such a degree, so depraved and apostate, that they are wholly and utterly unwilling, under any circumstance, to ever repent... and so God owes them no means of reconciliation.
(If a man's eyes are opened by God, to see his glory, we believe all men, or at least some men, would respond and repent... but the angels BEGAN with their eyes already open to God's glory, and became apostate by closing them.)

- They once knew God so well, and so closely and personally, that to rebel against him would be to commit an act that would seer their own conscience to such a degree they are forever incapable of repentance.
- They have made their own hearts into things so black and impenetrable that even the complete knowledge and grace of God could not breach their dark hearts.

C. Of course it is also possible to somewhat reconcile these two views: God had his own plans and purposes, and he therefore allowed the angels to fall and PUT THEMSELVES into such a state as to be irredeemable.
(This would be my personal view.)


3. What is the image of God; does it mean to have 2 arms and 2 legs?

A. Since God is spirit, it doesn't seem likely that to be "in his image" is talking about the "visual image" of having 2 arms and 2 legs.

B. But God could have chosen any form for us, and yet when he created humans, this special creature to have a special relationship with him, he chose, out of all possible options, this peculiar physical form we have.... so I do think this form we have is very special.


4. Was Adam's dominion a thing which Satan took from him after the Fall?

A. This depends entirely on how we define Adam's dominion.

B. It seems to me, from simply reading the text, that Adam's dominion was not something political, like that of a prince, but merely a physical dominance over the rest of creation.

C. Since man STILL has this physical dominance over the rest of creation, it would seem to me this dominion over the earth is still intact.

* This whole issue about dominion depends entirely on how we define dominion.

* A different definition of dominion would lead to a different conclusion, by I'm just going directly from the text in Genesis 1.


...

I don’t think people do have dominion over the earth, even Christians. At least not the
way God intended ie dominion over animals, no weeds, no sickness etc. I think
the damage done to planet earth is not recoverable which is why there will be a new earth.

I have given things more thought and maybe the only thing which is recoverable
is mankind, hence the salvation which is available. In one sense fallen earth
is under the dominion of Satan as it’s become corrupted and can’t be recovered.



Re the image of God, God certainly is spirit, but Jesus appeared both in the
Old Testament and New as a man. So maybe we really are made in His physically
Image. Presumably it was Jesus who walked with Adam and Eve in Eden?

Still not sure about the angels. There must have been some sort of free will there.
Not sure though that Calvinism and Armenians comes into play, as they are
not made in the image of God. They already had knowledge of good and evil.
They already had immortal heavenly bodies. So if they fall they can’t be saved.
Maybe man would also have had this issue if they had eaten of the tree of life
after the fall. But were stopped from doing so.

Anyway interesting subject.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#22
We do not really know, other than the mistaken idea that following Lucifer would be giving them an advantage,

Since there are a huge number of evil angels, 1/3rd of the total would be correct.

Because they were meant to be ministering spirits only. Humans, on the other hand, were meant to enter into the family of God since Christ would take human form.

Both. Humans have a mind, a will, and emotions. But eventually those who are saved will be transformed into the likeness of Christ, with glorified bodies.


There is a huge difference between Satan having THE RIGHT to become *the god of this world*, and Satan being ALLOWED BY GOD to be so. There is a false doctrine which has been around for some time that because of the Fall, Satan could simply take over the world. Had God chosen, Satan could have been cast into the Lake of Fire immediately. But God has ALLOWED him to do his evil deeds because that is a part of God's plan.

An you brought up something else I was wondering about.
Why does God need angels to do His work, to minister etc.

I think it’s generally accepted that we work in partnership with God and
need to work. It’s a pleasure to do His will.

Maybe angels are similar in that respect.
 
M

Miri

Guest
#23
Max........your whole premise is wrong......God gave none of His creation a free will. HIS WILL is the ONLY will.
Note in book of Job that Satan had to ask permission to sift Job and even then God put restraints on him.

Not sure about this in regards to angels. Satan was given permission to
test Job, yes. But are angels tested?

There must have been some reason why a third of the angels fell.
Were they tested also by God? Or were the events unexpected?
 
M

Miri

Guest
#24
Ok so reading the rest. What is free will?

Presumably Lucifer had free will and he made a conscious decision to
tempt and deceive Eve. Who also made a conscious decision to tempt
Adam.

Like I can decide to eat lots of healthy salad today or finish off all those
chocolates! lol

I need to eat something healthy my body is crying out for it after Christmas.
But those chocolates, mince pies and biscuits are so delicious!

Am I being influenced by the taste of chocolates? Or am I exercising free will?

Talking of exercise I need to do that as well, but my brain keeps telling me it’s
too much effort. lol
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#25
Not sure about this in regards to angels. Satan was given permission to
test Job, yes. But are angels tested?

There must have been some reason why a third of the angels fell.
Were they tested also by God? Or were the events unexpected?
give me the scripture on that and I will then tell you what you need to know ;)
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#26
1) God presumably gave heavenly beings free will. What might have caused a third to
follow Satan. Or is a third symbolic and not a real third.

The Bible says that Lucifer was created perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in him, so the angels had a choice, and some rebelled.

Then his name was changed to Satan to identify with his new character of evil, like Abram was changed to Abraham to identify his new character of following God, and Sarai to Sarah, and Jacob to Israel, and Simon Barjona to Peter, and Saul to Paul.

Which these name changes of the people were big game changers.

Like Abraham that is the father of many nations, and we are saved by the same faith as Abraham, and Sarah that gave birth to Isaac, which came Jacob, Israel, and the nation that would kick it off concerning the promises of God, and Peter that was given the keys to the kingdom, and preached the first message to the people, and Paul that was sent to the Gentiles to get the ball rolling there.

I believe it was a literal third of the angels, or close to that number, but I do not believe Gabriel, and Michael was over a third each, but there is no way to collaborate that.

But the Bible does not say that Lucifer was the greatest angel, or that he was the head of the heavenly choir, but seeing he is the foe of God it would seem like he would of been the greatest angel, or at least on the same level as Michael, and Gabriel, which that seems more like it.

For when Michael and his angels fight Satan and his angels, the fallen angels lose, and are cast to earth, which this is future when the devils deceive those that do not love the truth, but of course Michael would have two thirds of the angels on his side.

What caused a third to follow Satan is probably because he was that convincing that they could exalt themselves, and not be put down by God, the same temptation that Satan used on Eve that if she, and Adam ate of the tree they would be as gods knowing good and evil, that they would have an elevated status, and possibly that God could not put them down.

Also we have the word of God to tell us how awesome God is that He is an omnipresent Spirit, and an
omnipotent Spirit, and nothing can hurt him, and He cannot blow up, cannot fall apart, cannot dissolve, cannot disassemble, cannot shatter, cannot disintegrate, so we have an advantage to know that we do not want to mess with a God like that, but better do as He says,and the word of God, and prophecy of it testifies that He is the true God, as He told us what is going on today, and what will go down in the future.

Jesus is the visible relationship of the invisible God to the saints, for the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus, His visible image to the saints.

The Bible says that God was manifest in flesh, seen of angels, for angels cannot even see God unless He shows them a visible image of Himself.

But what did the angels have by way of understanding how great God really is, and I do not believe God disclosed that information to them as He did us, but would have to have a relationship with them, which would have to be visible, which God was probably in an angelic body for His relationship to the angels, like God is in a human body, now a glorified body, for His visible relationship to the saints.

So since Satan did not have information to how great God really is, and only seen an angelic image of Him sitting on the throne, Satan probably thought is that all there is to God that image I see before me, so he probably thought that he could overthrow God easily, especially with the angels that followed him, and thought that God could not stop him from exalting himself.

But of course it probably set Satan back when he realized that only a third of the angels followed him, so then he had to contend with two thirds of the angels, being outnumbered, plus God, which he could of thought he made a mistake, but it was too late, or maybe he was so arrogant he thought he could still overcome, but he realized he could not when he was kicked out of the dwelling place of God, and knew he could never be as great as God, which when he is cast to earth in the future he is mad for he knows his time is short, and the devils believe there is one God, and they tremble, so the fallen angels with all their arrogance know they are defeated, and cannot overcome.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

But maybe Lucifer was the greatest angel, and he influenced the king of Tyrus living through him to enjoy the things of earth, and riches, and praises of people, like he will influence the New Age Christ in the future, and live through him to enjoy worship, and praise, and ruling the world, but he will also use the man of sin to deceive the world, for the king of Tyrus would not be as influenced as the man of sin, for nobody was in strong delusion at that time, but when the fallen angels are cast to earth then the wicked will be in strong delusion, and lose their will to resist, especially after they take the mark of the beast for then they will have a nature of a devil, and the human will gone.

2). Why didn’t God come up with a plan for the angels to be saved?

The Bible says that in the flesh dwells no good thing, and Paul said when he does good, evil is present with him, for the flesh is sinful even when we are living for the Lord, that is why we are tempted, so with the flesh we serve sin, but it does not necessarily mean we are sinning, but with the mind we serve Christ.

Since all sin resides in the flesh, and those with Jesus have their sins forgiven, they will put off the flesh with the sin, and the soul is preserved in a glorified body for eternity to be with Jesus, their true essence, for the soul will live on forever whether with God or not, which Jesus was made a quickening spirit, but Adam was made a living soul, although the man Christ Jesus has a soul.

We do not retain the spirit in the afterlife, for all spirits go back to God who gave them no matter how the person acted on earth.

The angels only have one essence, and not two, and since they only have one essence, when they sinned they tainted their whole being with no way to put off the flesh.

So God did not give them a chance to be saved if they sinned, for they are completely corrupt, and cannot put off the sin, where a saint can put off the sin, by putting off the flesh, which is like a scapegoat for the saints.

While the flesh can condemn us if we do not come to the truth, the flesh also saves us because we can put off the flesh.

Continued,
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#27
Continued,

3) When the bible says we are made in the image of God.
Maybe we really are made in the image of God (via Christ ie 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 ears,
a body etc). I’ve heard it said that there is a perfect man in heaven - Christ.
But maybe there’s always has been a perfect man in heaven? Any thoughts
anyone about what it means to be made in the image of God? Is this just spiritual
or could it actually be physical as well?

Jesus is God manifest in flesh.

Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and the firstborn of all creatures, which would be the man Christ Jesus.

John 1:1, 1:3, translated.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the world, and that plan was God manifest in the flesh.

All things were made with the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created, for Jesus is the reason creation is successful, eternal life, and to judge angels, and people.

Adam was made in the image of God, New Testament - Adam was made in the figure of Him to come, Jesus.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

The throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Which the man Christ Jesus prayed to the Father that the saints could have the same glory as He will receive, which is to receive eternal life, and a glorified body, as the man Christ Jesus, and behold His glory as He sits on the throne in heaven.

The angels are last in the authority structure of God on earth, and the angels are ministering spirits sent to all people who shall inherit eternal life.

And the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints, for the saints will have a higher position, and be above the angels in heaven.

In other words everything was made for the man Christ Jesus, and people, and angels assist in that salvation plan of God for mankind.

Which a person could say the angels were created, and then God decided to create mankind so the creation only refers to them that happened after the angels.

But it could be the plan to create mankind was before God created the angels, for Jesus is the beginning of creation, which it could be before the creation of the angels, the beginning of all creation including angels.

It could be that God had the plan to create mankind before the creation of the angels, but then it opens up the question did God create Lucifer to fall, but God is not evil, and Lucifer was created perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in him, and it was not God's fault for Lucifer did it on his own.

Because if God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before the foundation of the world, then He had to know that Adam and Eve would fall, for without their fall then spiritual salvation would never happen, but it would not be His fault for He created them with an innocent nature, even though He knew they would fall, but it gave spiritual salvation to the world.

But without Lucifer falling then Adam and Eve would of never sinned, for it would of never entered their mind to eat of that tree of an outside source did not tempt them giving them an option, so God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, and Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam, for no harm came to her physically.

But it is not God's fault that Lucifer fell for he did it to himself.

This one is hard to tell, did God create the angels, and then decide to create mankind, or did he have the plan to create mankind, and then create the angels, and then after Lucifer fell created mankind, for Eve to be tempted by him that caused them to fall, or did God create mankind because Lucifer fell, and decided to give people a choice.

But I do not believe that Lucifer knew anything about God creating mankind in the future, before he rebelled, so he would not be jealous over it, which the princes of this world would of not crucified the Lord of glory if they knew it would give salvation to the world.

4). There is a part of the book which refers to how God gave Adam and Eve dominion
over the earth, but how they lost that when they fell and so Satan took
that from mankind and become the prince of the earth ruling it and mankind etc.
That the law of sin and death, meant God couldn’t just take it back and Satan knew
this.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Satan would of had to known it by the influence he had in manipulating kings, and princes, and people of great importance in society, to influence them in wicked ways, and ungodly rulership of falsehood that would have a great impact on the people that were following them, and tempting people of all levels of the world to be rebellious to God's ways.

Adam and Eve had dominion over the earth, for they were the top authority, and influence in the earth, among the creation of God, with no other beings, or ways taking precedence over them among the creatures, until they sinned and then the influence went to Satan although he is on a leash, and we can resist him, as is testified that we follow God, and not Satan, and not the evil way.

But Satan will meet his end one day, and in the millennial reign it is given back to people, the man Christ Jesus, and the saints, who will continue on forever with no end of life.

As long as mankind can sin, and God allows it to go on although He does not want it to go on, Satan will be able to influence the wicked.