Bladrunner, it is good that you are committed to the Lord, but remember,lost people who end up in Hades went there because they rejected the truth...most thought that they were in truth in this life but they were wrong. It is a very dangerous thing to be out of the truth of God because in such a position God cannot defend you and Satan will tear you to pieces. One must believe only the bible, not what people say about the bible, because people can be wrong and often are.
Rapture Gap
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Persuaded...you , I , Ahwatukee and others have been at this very thread many times and none of us get anywhere.
Ahwatukee and I know you are a post-triber yet it appears that nothing can change your mind.
In rev 3:10 KJV "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" tells us (the church, those who believe in Jesus Christ), will be spared from the hour of temptation.
This is not the Great tribulations which begin 42 months (1260 days, 3 1/2 years, time times and 1/2 times) after the antichrist enforces the covenant with Israel.
Since you say that the people will not go through God's wrath, then that makes you a MID-TRIBER...The rapture happens prior to the "Great Tribulations"
What do you thinK?
Ahwatukee and I know you are a post-triber yet it appears that nothing can change your mind.
In rev 3:10 KJV "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" tells us (the church, those who believe in Jesus Christ), will be spared from the hour of temptation.
This is not the Great tribulations which begin 42 months (1260 days, 3 1/2 years, time times and 1/2 times) after the antichrist enforces the covenant with Israel.
Since you say that the people will not go through God's wrath, then that makes you a MID-TRIBER...The rapture happens prior to the "Great Tribulations"
What do you thinK?
Yes, Samuel23 you are right I am in the minority. I am a fundamentalist (one that reads the Bible literally from the beginning to the end.) Like you I thought I knew the Bible until I started reading it literally. Then everything opened up. It is plain the Jesus tells us we will not go through the hour of temptations nor will we go through 'The Great Tribulations that that Jesus tells us about in Matthew 24:21....
Good evening HisHolly,
It is imperative to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age, that they are two separate events. When one interprets the these two events as being the same, then their understanding of end-time events will always be in error. That said, Matt.24 is about the signs leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and the establishing of his millennial kingdom. Within his narrative of the signs, in Matt.24:15 Jesus' mention of the setting up of the abomination, which marks the middle of the seven years, with Matt.24:29-31 completing that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period with Christ returning to the earth to end the age.
The abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple. When this take place, those in Jerusalem and Judea are to flee out of Jerusalem, which is the desolation caused by the setting up of the abomination. Jesus says regarding those in Jerusalem at that time "pray that your time of fleeing doesn't take place on the Sabbath. The abomination being set up in the temple, the temple sacrifices being ceased, those in Judea fleeing to the hills, etc. These are all in reference to Israel, not the church. For that last 3 1/2 years is known as "the time of Jacob's trouble" and "the great tribulation." Therefore, the information contained in Matt.24 is directed at Israel during the time of God's wrath and not the church.
Matt.24:29-31 is synonymous with Rev.19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. In Rev.19:14, there is an army riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. This is the same event of Matt.24:29-31. When Jesus returns to the earth to end age, the church, who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, along with the angels, will appear with Christ to end the age. Matt.24 is the events that will be taking place during the time of God's wrath, of which the church will not be here.
Matt.24 cannot be applied to the church, but is referring to the time of God's wrath and the events that will take place involving Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world.
It is imperative to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age, that they are two separate events. When one interprets the these two events as being the same, then their understanding of end-time events will always be in error. That said, Matt.24 is about the signs leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and the establishing of his millennial kingdom. Within his narrative of the signs, in Matt.24:15 Jesus' mention of the setting up of the abomination, which marks the middle of the seven years, with Matt.24:29-31 completing that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period with Christ returning to the earth to end the age.
The abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple. When this take place, those in Jerusalem and Judea are to flee out of Jerusalem, which is the desolation caused by the setting up of the abomination. Jesus says regarding those in Jerusalem at that time "pray that your time of fleeing doesn't take place on the Sabbath. The abomination being set up in the temple, the temple sacrifices being ceased, those in Judea fleeing to the hills, etc. These are all in reference to Israel, not the church. For that last 3 1/2 years is known as "the time of Jacob's trouble" and "the great tribulation." Therefore, the information contained in Matt.24 is directed at Israel during the time of God's wrath and not the church.
Matt.24:29-31 is synonymous with Rev.19:11-21, which is a detailed account of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. In Rev.19:14, there is an army riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. This is the same event of Matt.24:29-31. When Jesus returns to the earth to end age, the church, who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, along with the angels, will appear with Christ to end the age. Matt.24 is the events that will be taking place during the time of God's wrath, of which the church will not be here.
Matt.24 cannot be applied to the church, but is referring to the time of God's wrath and the events that will take place involving Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world.
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Hello maxwel,
No, I believe that it is in reference from the time when the church is gathered and the time between that event and the opening of the 1st seal, which begins God's wrath. I personally believe that the 1st seal, which is representing the antichrist, will take place in close proximity to just after the church has been removed. This would be a perfect Segway for the antichrist to be revealed. And I'm sure that he will have an unfavorable explanation as to where all the followers of Christ went.
No, I believe that it is in reference from the time when the church is gathered and the time between that event and the opening of the 1st seal, which begins God's wrath. I personally believe that the 1st seal, which is representing the antichrist, will take place in close proximity to just after the church has been removed. This would be a perfect Segway for the antichrist to be revealed. And I'm sure that he will have an unfavorable explanation as to where all the followers of Christ went.
It is one thing to assert that there are two, the pre-trib rapture, and the second coming, it is quite another thing to prove that assertion. The New Testament has never taught a pre-trib rapture and later a second coming...that is the teaching of a false teacher named John Darby who traveled a lot and persuaded gullible people to accept this made up doctrine. It had great appeal to the naïve because it offered them a way out of the tribulation, but only in their imagination. There is only the return of Christ in the bible after the tribulation to gather the church and deal with the godless. Jesus said the church would go through the tribulation(Matt 24) and so did Paul(2Thess)...I believe them.
The time period after Harpozo probably has a Gap although there are no scriptures to support it. We know that the antichrist can not be revealed until the restrainer (The Holy Spirit) is removed from the earth. Since all those who are 'in Christ' have the Holy Spirit within him/her, they too will leave this earth to 'meet Jesus in the Clouds'.
The time period of the Harpozo where millions will simply disappear. From that point until the Anti-Christ enforces a Covenant with Israel (the beginning of the 'Hour of Temptations' put forth by God himself.) is called the 'Gap'
Having said this, Does Satan have someone ready to step in at anytime since he does not know the time or the hour within which the Harpozo will happen???? Does the AntiChrist have to grow up???? How much time is needed for the AC to become the one who conquers through peace and becomes the leader of nation(s)?????????
To be truthful, no one knows the answers to the above questions, which is why there most likely will be a gap between the Harpozp and the so-called Tribulations.
P
I have wasted much time on this forum, but will make one more post.
I am a computer dummy. I type with two fingers and do not know how to cut and paste.
To much effort and time involved.
This is my understanding after many, many years of prayer and study.
Rev. 3:10 is addressed to the church at Philadelphia. You misused it to make your point.
Tribulation and wrath are two different words with two different meanings.
To call any tribulation God's wrath is wrong.
Saints have in the past and even today suffer tribulation. Some suffer more than others. Some die daily.
Tribulation is brought about by men and by natural disasters. Yes, God sometimes "allows" tribulation to come into the lives of saints.
I do not believe in a seven year "tribulation period"
That belief is based on a misunderstand of Dan 9:27.
"He" does not refer to the man of sin but to the Messiah.
Daniel is speaking of God's dealing with Israel for 70 weeks of years--490 years.
After 483 years, the Messiah will come. This was fulfilled at Jesus baptism.
Jesus went to the Jews for about three and a half years and offered Himself as their Messiah.
He instructed the Apostles not to go to the Gentiles, but to the Jews.
Jesus established a covenant with "many" who accepted Him as the Messiah.
After about three and a half, He, Jesus, the Messiah was cut off--crucified.
The time of God dealing with the Jews was put on hold until the man of sin would be revealed.
At that time God will once again begin the clock that has been stopped for about 2000 years.
Daniel speaks of 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days.
This is what I understand what that means.
The man of sin will be identified when he takes a head shot, but stands back up alive and is Satan in the flesh.
He and the Islamic army he has assembled will attack Israel, and after 30 days will drive them into the wilderness.
Only God's intervention will save Israel for total destruction. God will protect Israel for 1260 days.
The man of sin will then turn his army on the rest of the world, especially the saint.
He will make war on the saints for 1260 days.
There will be 1260 days of hell on earth. Brought about by the man of sin, his army, and natural disasters as described in the seals and trumpets.
At the sounding of the seventh , last trump, 1290 days after the man of sin has been identified, Jesus will come. The saint who God has protected and are alive will be gathered to Him.
At this time seven bowls of God's wrath will be poured out on the earth. This will take 35 days.
That is what I believe the Word of God teaches.
I know you will disagree and will misuse many Scriptures to prove me wrong.
35 years ago I believed as you believed because that is what I was taught and that is what was accepted as fact among Missionary Baptist Churches.
Here is my challenge to you.
Lay aside everything you have been taught and believed and with much prayer, study again with an open mind.
That is what I did 35 years ago, and God revealed to me through His Word the truth.
I am a computer dummy. I type with two fingers and do not know how to cut and paste.
To much effort and time involved.
This is my understanding after many, many years of prayer and study.
Rev. 3:10 is addressed to the church at Philadelphia. You misused it to make your point.
Tribulation and wrath are two different words with two different meanings.
To call any tribulation God's wrath is wrong.
Saints have in the past and even today suffer tribulation. Some suffer more than others. Some die daily.
Tribulation is brought about by men and by natural disasters. Yes, God sometimes "allows" tribulation to come into the lives of saints.
I do not believe in a seven year "tribulation period"
That belief is based on a misunderstand of Dan 9:27.
"He" does not refer to the man of sin but to the Messiah.
Daniel is speaking of God's dealing with Israel for 70 weeks of years--490 years.
After 483 years, the Messiah will come. This was fulfilled at Jesus baptism.
Jesus went to the Jews for about three and a half years and offered Himself as their Messiah.
He instructed the Apostles not to go to the Gentiles, but to the Jews.
Jesus established a covenant with "many" who accepted Him as the Messiah.
After about three and a half, He, Jesus, the Messiah was cut off--crucified.
The time of God dealing with the Jews was put on hold until the man of sin would be revealed.
At that time God will once again begin the clock that has been stopped for about 2000 years.
Daniel speaks of 1260 days, 1290 days, and 1335 days.
This is what I understand what that means.
The man of sin will be identified when he takes a head shot, but stands back up alive and is Satan in the flesh.
He and the Islamic army he has assembled will attack Israel, and after 30 days will drive them into the wilderness.
Only God's intervention will save Israel for total destruction. God will protect Israel for 1260 days.
The man of sin will then turn his army on the rest of the world, especially the saint.
He will make war on the saints for 1260 days.
There will be 1260 days of hell on earth. Brought about by the man of sin, his army, and natural disasters as described in the seals and trumpets.
At the sounding of the seventh , last trump, 1290 days after the man of sin has been identified, Jesus will come. The saint who God has protected and are alive will be gathered to Him.
At this time seven bowls of God's wrath will be poured out on the earth. This will take 35 days.
That is what I believe the Word of God teaches.
I know you will disagree and will misuse many Scriptures to prove me wrong.
35 years ago I believed as you believed because that is what I was taught and that is what was accepted as fact among Missionary Baptist Churches.
Here is my challenge to you.
Lay aside everything you have been taught and believed and with much prayer, study again with an open mind.
That is what I did 35 years ago, and God revealed to me through His Word the truth.
You really do not read your Bible do you Samuel23...... There is more said about Jesus' second coming than all the words written about Jesus and his time on earth. We know almost exactly when He will Arrive.
Get Darby out of your mind,,,,,,,,
would you like to go through Mat 24 verse by verse with your comments then mine. It might just raise surprise you?
Hello samuel23,
Scripturally, they are simply two separate events which expositors have erroneously made to be the same event. When they do this, they ignore the time of God's wrath and the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer said wrath.
Regarding end-time events and all Biblical issues, we must look at every related scripture in order to arrive at a proper exegetical conclusion.
Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on our behalf, the church therefore cannot go through the time period of God's wrath. And because that wrath populates that entire last seven years until Christ returns, believers must then be removed prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which starts with the opening of the 1st seal.
The big road block is always the time of God's wrath in relation to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The church cannot cross that barrier!
People always attempt to use this apologetic regarding John Darby, repeating what they have heard or read and I tell them the same thing that I do when anyone attempts to use this as an excuse to refute my teaching, which is that, I have never read anything by John Darby. Therefore, your claim is out the window. I get all of my facts directly from scripture, period! And I know that, because I am the one who sits here at my desk day after day reading scripture, cross-referencing, looking up the definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words and comparing all of the major translations. So, I can tell you the truth, I am not getting my information from either John Darby or Scofield or anyone else. They are my own studies. And through those studies and the confirmation of the Spirit, I have the church being removed prior to the 1st seal being opened.
You're just not understanding the nature of both events. One is to gather the church out of the earth prior to the beginning of God's wrath. And the other is to bring the age to its end and establish his millennial kingdom.
You still have not answered my question regarding that army that is following the Lord out of heaven on white horses. I can understand that it is very hard to create an apologetic for that one, because Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church already in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then Rev.19:14 reveals the bride wearing that same fine linen, white clean riding on white horses and following the Lord out of heaven to end the age. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you have to be in heaven. Think about it.
Scripturally, they are simply two separate events which expositors have erroneously made to be the same event. When they do this, they ignore the time of God's wrath and the fact that scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer said wrath.
Regarding end-time events and all Biblical issues, we must look at every related scripture in order to arrive at a proper exegetical conclusion.
Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on our behalf, the church therefore cannot go through the time period of God's wrath. And because that wrath populates that entire last seven years until Christ returns, believers must then be removed prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which starts with the opening of the 1st seal.
The big road block is always the time of God's wrath in relation to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The church cannot cross that barrier!
People always attempt to use this apologetic regarding John Darby, repeating what they have heard or read and I tell them the same thing that I do when anyone attempts to use this as an excuse to refute my teaching, which is that, I have never read anything by John Darby. Therefore, your claim is out the window. I get all of my facts directly from scripture, period! And I know that, because I am the one who sits here at my desk day after day reading scripture, cross-referencing, looking up the definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words and comparing all of the major translations. So, I can tell you the truth, I am not getting my information from either John Darby or Scofield or anyone else. They are my own studies. And through those studies and the confirmation of the Spirit, I have the church being removed prior to the 1st seal being opened.
You're just not understanding the nature of both events. One is to gather the church out of the earth prior to the beginning of God's wrath. And the other is to bring the age to its end and establish his millennial kingdom.
You still have not answered my question regarding that army that is following the Lord out of heaven on white horses. I can understand that it is very hard to create an apologetic for that one, because Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church already in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then Rev.19:14 reveals the bride wearing that same fine linen, white clean riding on white horses and following the Lord out of heaven to end the age. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you have to be in heaven. Think about it.
If pre-trib is true then why do you folks answer all clear scripture and honest reason with double-talk? I can quote Jesus saying that after the tribulation He will appear in the sky, with a trumpet, and send the angles to gather all those who believe in Him. Can you quote Jesus saying that He will return before the tribulation, invisible except to believers, and suddenly snatch Christians away so that no one knows what happened?? If the post-trib gathering is clearly in the bible and the pre-trib gathering is not, then why are you rejecting what is in the bible and accepting what is not in the bible?
Definitely my pleasure in the Lord. If I can clear up these false teaching that have been circulating in the world and get even one person to understand the truth regarding these matters, then I am happy and give thanks to God. I am not surprised though that there is so much false teachings on every Biblical topic, for scripture states that these days would come, as prophesied below:
"For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to the own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves,and indeed they will turn away from hearing the truth, and will be turned aside unto myths."
To put the scripture above into perspective, those "tearcher's" are You Tube, seminars, books, websites and hearsay, to name of few. Our base for the truth should always be garnered from the word of God and not those other sources. Whenever you see someone attach a You Tube link or someone else's website, then you know that this is where they are getting their information from. When instead of those, they should be providing scriptures in order to present the truth of God's word.
"For there will be a time when they will not endure sound teaching, but according to the own desires, having an itching ear, they will gather around them teachers to suit themselves,and indeed they will turn away from hearing the truth, and will be turned aside unto myths."
To put the scripture above into perspective, those "tearcher's" are You Tube, seminars, books, websites and hearsay, to name of few. Our base for the truth should always be garnered from the word of God and not those other sources. Whenever you see someone attach a You Tube link or someone else's website, then you know that this is where they are getting their information from. When instead of those, they should be providing scriptures in order to present the truth of God's word.
Please show me one place where I have used "double-talk" in presenting scripture. I always provide scripture to support what I am teaching on.
1 Cor.15:52 = "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet"
Matt.24:31 = "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call"
The word "Trumpet" is not specific or unique to either of those events. Your error is that you assume that these are both referring to the same class or type of trumpet, when in fact, there are many different types of trumpets in God's word. The first one is referred to as "the last trumpet," where the one in Matt.24:31 simply says "a loud trumpet call." The "last trumpet" when the church is gathered, will be the last of a certain type of trumpet. The one in Matt.24:31 is the sounding of a loud trumpet of another type. This is the error that people make when they read Rev.20:4-6 regarding the "first resurrection." In their minds that take that word "first" and interpret it as "only" and viola, you have everyone having to be resurrected at that particular event. But regarding this, they fail to take into consideration all of the scriptures that mention other resurrections that obviously take place before the one in Rev.20:4-6. If they did, they would come to the understanding that, there are stages or phases to the first resurrection, with Jesus being the first fruits.
1 Cor.15:52 = "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet"
Matt.24:31 = "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call"
The word "Trumpet" is not specific or unique to either of those events. Your error is that you assume that these are both referring to the same class or type of trumpet, when in fact, there are many different types of trumpets in God's word. The first one is referred to as "the last trumpet," where the one in Matt.24:31 simply says "a loud trumpet call." The "last trumpet" when the church is gathered, will be the last of a certain type of trumpet. The one in Matt.24:31 is the sounding of a loud trumpet of another type. This is the error that people make when they read Rev.20:4-6 regarding the "first resurrection." In their minds that take that word "first" and interpret it as "only" and viola, you have everyone having to be resurrected at that particular event. But regarding this, they fail to take into consideration all of the scriptures that mention other resurrections that obviously take place before the one in Rev.20:4-6. If they did, they would come to the understanding that, there are stages or phases to the first resurrection, with Jesus being the first fruits.