Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

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UnitedWithChrist

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Doesn't the book of James give us to this as a guarantee, subject to the prayer of faith? (Possibly the confession of sin, also, depending on how you interpret the whole passage?) Isn't wisdom guaranteed in chapter 1 for those who pray in faith?



I take serious issue with some of the doctrines taught in the WOF movement. There are extremes, even those who say God never caused illness, when He said that (contingent on certain conditions) He would lay upon the Israelites none of the illnesses that he lay upon the Egyptians. The concept of a 'good God' can be interpreted in a carnal way.

But even the WOFers would not say that there is no suffering or hardship in this life, for example through persecution. At least some of them allow for suffering. Hagin had some space for that in his teaching.

The question is whether or not their is provision for healing in our covenant, as there was for health and healing for Israel under theirs. Israel had a guarantee not to have any of the illnesses the Lord laid upon the Egyptians if they were obedient. If they were obedient... ay there's the rub. For Christians though, if the elders anoint with oil, the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise Him up. The Lord also heals through certain gifted members, and there are great promises in scripture for those who pray in faith even if they are not elders of the church.

Matthew quotes Isaiah 53 in relation to physical healing in Matthew 8, which undercuts the argument that it was esclusively about spiritual healing.
I think you lack an understanding of the ultimate healing, which occurs at the resurrection. The curse is totally reversed at Jesus' return. This is contrary to the teachings of dispensationalists, of which charismatics/Pentecostals generally belong to.

So, in one sense, I could say healing is GUARANTEED due to the hope of the resurrection, regardless of whether it occurs now or not. The resurrected body will be healed totally.

And, that is part of Jesus' work on the cross, of redeeming all creation to himself. Cessationalists believe this totally.

Your view, though, leaves place for someone to claim that you lack faith because you are not healed. Mine does not.

And, I find it to be disgusting actually. I know a lady who was very faithful and suffered multiple incidences of cancer. She likely died as the result of one of these events. She was a very faithful woman who was always very cheerful and devoted to God. She also had a son who was decapitated in an accident, and a grandchild who choked to death in her care from pneumonia (she was babysitting and wasn't aware he was that sick).

Various Pentecostals and Charismatics would be thinking, in the back of their minds, what secret sins this woman had. Well, I don't think any more than anyone else, and I think she was a great deal more devoted than the vast majority of THEM.

Faith is largely about continuing onward in the faith despite how circumstances look. It isn't about God giving you everything you want, including physical healing. Folks need to read Hebrews 11 and meditate on it before claiming such things.

And, as I said, these types of false doctrines make me retch.
 

presidente

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How so? When Simon saw (Luke speaking) that through the Apostle's hands the Holy Spirit was given"...... Don't you think it's time to start over and learn what the bible says?
I learn that and that is clearly part of my understanding. You seem to think this verse means that ONLY through the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given. It doesn't say that. The reason Peter gives that Simon could have no part in this matter was because his heart was not right before God.

Jesus spoke of the Father giving the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him. The Spirit was poured out, apparently, without the lying on of hands in Acts 10, in the case of Saul of Tarsus, and gifts can be imparted through prayer or through the gift of prophecy, and to whomever the Spirit wills. You are trying to put a straightjacket on the Spirit of God by eisegeting a limitation on Him into this verse.

What translations capitalizes 'apostles'? There should be one capital 'A' on apostles aside from the beginning of sentences, the one reference that refers to Christ in Hebrews.
 
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I learn that and that is clearly part of my understanding. You seem to think this verse means that ONLY through the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given. It doesn't say that. The reason Peter gives that Simon could have no part in this matter was because his heart was not right before God.

Jesus spoke of the Father giving the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him. The Spirit was poured out, apparently, without the lying on of hands in Acts 10, in the case of Saul of Tarsus, and gifts can be imparted through prayer or through the gift of prophecy, and to whomever the Spirit wills. You are trying to put a straightjacket on the Spirit of God by eisegeting a limitation on Him into this verse.

What translations capitalizes 'apostles'? There should be one capital 'A' on apostles aside from the beginning of sentences, the one reference that refers to Christ in Hebrews.
Provide one other instance where the gifts came apart from their hands. (Excluding the two outpourings).

“God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:4 (KJV 1900)
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I think Paula White's first husband may have been preconversion. I don't think Randy and Paula White told why they were divorcing, if it was over 'immorality' or not.

These things cause me concern. In the Pentecostal movement when I was growing up, they were strict about this, at least for those in ministry roles if not about attendees. Some of the denominations allow leaders to keep their credentials if the other party committed adultery these days. 'Charismatic' is more a theological position than anything else. There is no police force-- except maybe something God in His longsuffering has set up-- nothing set up as an organization over all Charismatics. It's like Baptists or Calvinists. It isn't a centralized organization. Southern Baptists can't stop some of the Primitives on this forum from having an incomprehensible soteriology.



I think he is in what they call the 'signs and wonders movement.' I didn't know he was chunky. I saw some old videos when he wasn't. Dreadlocks don't bother me that much. Maybe he's going for a Samson look, and street people might relate to him better if he looks funky. I did see a leg lengthening video of his, but there were others. I didn't see him actually explain the Gospel, either. There are lots of other people who post YouTube videos of praying for people on the street who actually do speak about the cross of Christ on YouTube, who aren't famous.


Your reasoning is clearly unbiblical. The Corinthians apparently were using genuine tongues and prophecy in a disorderly manner, or at least it is obvious they could have done so or Paul wouldn't have written I Corinthians.

Like I posted earlier, I have been to churches where tongues as interpreted and you didn't hear tongues that weren't uninterpreted in the service. I've heard teaching against that in a Pentecostal context.
Regarding this, as I have said, the Corinthians did NOT have Scripture to inform their behavior. Paul's writings were canonized later, and just about everyone has a Bible. If they don't have one, it is their own fault except in rare circumstances such as countries where it has not been translated yet, therefore any charismatics who are disorderly in their behavior are culpable.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I don't believe in the 'classical Pentecostal' initial evidence doctrine, meaning that I don't believe someone is not filled with the Spirit if they don't speak in tongues, but that is the general idea held to in the A/G and other Pentecostal denominations and many of the Charismatic groups.



I don't see an argument for cessationism in those arguments by themselves. That is not the line of reasoning all cessationists, take, I notice. I Corinthians 12:28 implies there are non-apostles, and non-profits who work miracles and heal. So those gifts are not the exclusive domain of apostles and prophets.



I still see role of apostle for those who are sent out by the Spirit, generally through the church. Historically, the word was used of those who introduced the gospel in unreached reasons, like Patrick apostle of Ireland, Gregory Apostle of the Armenians, Cyril and Methodius, apostles to the Slavs and a long list of other peoples. The term apostolos is used more broadly than Paul and the twelve in the New Testament. If there is no apostolic ministry left, what ministry role do missionaries fit into, the church planting kind? We end up with an ecclesiological problem. I also see the role of prophet as ongoing, as apparently it was after the apostles passed away and going forward, to refer to those who are particularly gifted in a ministry of prophesying.

Someone could claim these titles with an arrogant attitude, but ho

And I sure get the impression that there are a lot of people calling themselves 'apostles' who do not function in an apostolic function when we consider the role in scripture. Some of the NAR people have redefined the term to either be the head over elders or pastors, or else to be some kind of societal 'mover and shaker.' Both ideas seem to be off as far as what the term meant in scripture. I am not in the A/G now. The church I go to was a merger between an A/G, a Baptist church, and another ministry.



Pentecostals are known for having 'lively' singing and worship services. The movement was influenced by the style of African-American churches and Holiness churches in the Appalachian region and other places. Raising hands and clapping is common, or was. There are a lot of Pentecostal churches you couldn't tell from other evangelical churches these days since a lot of churches have just gone with 'contemporary music' which was more of a Charismatic thing 25 years ago. In my experience, it is unusual for a __Pentecostal__ church to be like what you described. Some of the churches that were part of the Holiness movement in the southeast interpret references to 'shouting' in the Psalms to allow for people shouting out praises and such during the meetings. The A/G seemed to be a little more reserved as you went west in my experience in the 1980s in terms of 'excited' behavior related to praise. The Psalms talk about praising the Lord and dancing and some Charismatic churches do that.

But in the US, I do not find what you type to be typical of Pentecostal or Charismatic meetings. But they may be the types of things that make YouTube. There are some churches that seem to emphasize this type of thing. But it isn't typical. And sadly, in the A/G and some of the other Pentecostal churches, it seems like tongues and interpretation and prophecy may be a bit rarer. That may be from people coming in who have no experience with it who wouldn't know they would be allowed to do it if they received something because they have no background in it, along with pastors who have no experience with it who program the service so tightly and don't teach there is freedom to exercise gifts.

I see Pentecostal church meetings as a tension between the unconscious desire to stick with Protestant liturgy why trying to synchretize it with the Biblical commands for church meetings. In some ways, Pentecostalism has moved more toward the Biblical meeting, but the theological and Biblical framework for how to meet and why to meet that way has not really taken hold for the most part, and the influence of Protestant traditional ideas of 'order', as opposed to Biblical order, is still predominant.
Be aware that I have no issue with "lively worship".

I doubt that charismatics and Pentecostals have a proper understanding of languages and interpretation and God's promises regarding healing. As I have said, I believe God heals according to his sovereign will, and mainly through the elders of the Church and their prayers. And, I believe ultimate healing is guaranteed at the resurrection, when the effects of the Curse are fully reversed.

It is obvious that no human being escapes decay and death, no matter what any Pentecostal or charismatic claims. Even if God heals someone in a specific incidence, they will still continue to decay and die.

It is funny how many people who claim an absolute guaranteed healing walk around in old, worn out bodies, and so do their family members.
 

presidente

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I think you lack an understanding of the ultimate healing, which occurs at the resurrection. The curse is totally reversed at Jesus' return. This is contrary to the teachings of dispensationalists, of which charismatics/Pentecostals generally belong to.
If I believe 'the prayer of faith shall heal the sick in James 5', why would that mean I don't believe in the 'ultimate' healing' at the resurrection?

Why don't we discuss specific scripture. Paul wrote of Christ becoming a curse for us. He writes about the 'curse of the law' upon those who do not obey it. There is also the curse related to Adam. Where does the Bible address the idea of this curse being lifted?
So, in one sense, I could say healing is GUARANTEED due to the hope of the resurrection, regardless of whether it occurs now or not. The resurrected body will be healed totally.
Jesus still had nail and spear holes.

And, that is part of Jesus' work on the cross, of redeeming all creation to himself. Cessationalists believe this totally.
Cessationists have a wide variety of beliefs. Some dispensationalists are cessationists.

Your view, though, leaves place for someone to claim that you lack faith because you are not healed. Mine does not.
I think we need to be careful about blaming the sick. But not having because you have not asked, or not receiving because you have not prayed in faith are two themes found in the book of James. Throughout the gospels there are statements of Christ that indicate healing is related to the faith of the sick individual or others. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man lowered through the roof... 'According to your faith be it unto you..."

Even Paul, when he saw that a man had faith to be healed told him to rise and walk.

In James 5, if the elders pray and the sick isn't healed, if they want to blame anyone for not praying the prayer of faith, they should blame themselves.

Various Pentecostals and Charismatics would be thinking, in the back of their minds, what secret sins this woman had.
Where do you get that? Not asking for healing in faith versus hiding a secret of murdering someone or adultery or whatever is not the same thing. Also, one of the promises of healing is about the elders praying the prayer of faith.

Well, I don't think any more than anyone else, and I think she was a great deal more devoted than the vast majority of THEM.
I can tell you don't like 'them' very much, or some things about 'them.' I was raised Pentecostal, but if all I saw of it was the Charismatic WOFers on TV, I might have a negative attitude about it. Honestly, I have had a kind of negative attitude toward WOFers, and many of them have brought this on themselves with scripture-twisting on TV. But spending time overseas and going to church with a mix of expats when I didn't know the language. I met some Rhema grads who seemed to be solid evanglials.

Faith is largely about continuing onward in the faith despite how circumstances look. It isn't about God giving you everything you want, including physical healing.
Having faith and believing God in spite of the circumstances is a common theme I have heard from both Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. Healing is actually something the Bible says a lot about, though, and we should believe the teaching of scripture on these things as well.

Folks need to read Hebrews 11 and meditate on it before claiming such things.

And, as I said, these types of false doctrines make me retch.
You paint with a broad brush. I could talk about how non-Pentecostal churches teach that gay marriage is good and let pastors conduct those ceremonies, and I heard one of them had a stripper come in and use her 'gifts' and hold to all kinds of liberal theories. All those things are true. There are cessationists who do not believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead (JWs).

Some of your concerns are the kind of things I've read Pentecostals criticizing some of the WOF teachings over, btw.
 

presidente

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Regarding this, as I have said, the Corinthians did NOT have Scripture to inform their behavior. Paul's writings were canonized later, and just about everyone has a Bible. If they don't have one, it is their own fault except in rare circumstances such as countries where it has not been translated yet, therefore any charismatics who are disorderly in their behavior are culpable.
Maybe so, but is it any worse than cessationists disobeying scripture by not allowing tongues, interpretation, and prophecy to be spoken in their meetings? How about by some churches reserving teaching to clergy instead of 'every one of you' (I Corinthians 14:26)?
 

bojack

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How so? When Simon saw (Luke speaking) that through the Apostle's hands the Holy Spirit was given"...... Don't you think it's time to start over and learn what the bible says?
You wanted it too but why, what was your motive Dave ? Or rather why not you ?
 

notuptome

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Maybe so, but is it any worse than cessationists disobeying scripture by not allowing tongues, interpretation, and prophecy to be spoken in their meetings? How about by some churches reserving teaching to clergy instead of 'every one of you' (I Corinthians 14:26)?
Obedience to scripture is why tongues with so called interpretation and prophecy are not found in biblically sound churches.

I prefer clergy that is educated to teach and preach as opposed to every one who may have a theology they wish to expound that is not orthodox. Look around this place and see how many folks including many women hold opinions on scripture that are outside the mainstream norm.

Corinth was a church in error and discord not one to be emulated.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

presidente

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It is obvious that no human being escapes decay and death, no matter what any Pentecostal or charismatic claims. Even if God heals someone in a specific incidence, they will still continue to decay and die.

It is funny how many people who claim an absolute guaranteed healing walk around in old, worn out bodies, and so do their family members.
As someone who spent decades going to Pentecostal churches, my impression is that the general understanding of Pentecostals is that people do get old and die, and that we do not all necessarily have supernatural health. But Pentecostals believe God heals and that there are promises of healing in scripture. They believe in anointing the sick with oil, healing through prayer, and that God can heal through individuals who have spiritual gifts as well, since the scriptures teach that.

There may be individual Pentecostal preachers who think everyone is supposed to walk around perfectly fit like Moses until death. That's more of an emphasis with some in the Word of Faith Movement, which is a subset of the Charismatic movement, not Pentecostalism, as I understand and categorize it. Bill Johnson, who is in the signs and wonders movement thinks that way.

Kenneth Hagin, who was influential in the WOF movement, even allowed for the idea of people physically dying before the resurrection, though he thought Christians should be in good health until death and just die in their sleep. They all realize that doesn't happen. I think they might think of that as normative if people have faith for it, or that it is available. The idea of walking in 'divine health' is more of a WOF emphasis. Bill Johnson, though not exactly what I'd think of as WOF, more in the signs and wonders camp, has similar ideas about health.

One of my concerns about Hagin's teachings is that all the 'bad' stuff was from the Devil, and God just allows it to happen. That doesn't fit with the plagues of Egypt well, and the judgment on the church in I Corinthians 11 doesn't seem to fit with that either. Hagin had a booklet, or someone made one out of his sermon and put his name on it, where he said that someone said there was some feature of Hebrew (which he named) that meant a word could mean either caused or allowed. Without addressing the fact of whether all scriptures that had God bringing calamity fit into that grammatical category or if it made sense to explain it away using this explanation, he concluded that God just allows bad stuff. That's an extreme view, but it seems common with some of the WOFers. Some of them will study the Bible enough to get away from that mode of thinking.

And most Pentecostals did not sit under Hagin's tutelage and since they read the Bible, they come to different conclusions.

A lot of the Word of Faith movement preachers are on TV, and that is probably what you are thinking of as Pentecostal or Charismatic.
 
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7seasrekeyed

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More of the same old stuff. Poor old Pentecostals. Nobody loves them and nobody cares for them. Woe is they misery on misery.

I would be careful about they have never seen Jesus either as that could be taken the wrong way.

Pr 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

No such thing as praying in tongues ever taught in the bible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

sniffing your cat's catnip again Roger?
 
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7seasrekeyed

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Corinth was a church in error and discord not one to be emulated.

yes it was. probably like so very many churches today. the ones who got it and the ones who ain't got (wink wink)

since a good portion of the NT was written for correction and instruction, shall we just ignore it since so many have arrived at the perfection of no knowledge?

and the OT!!!!! shocking shocking sin filled history of sinners sinning

don't read it!

poke.png
 

notuptome

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yes it was. probably like so very many churches today. the ones who got it and the ones who ain't got (wink wink)

since a good portion of the NT was written for correction and instruction, shall we just ignore it since so many have arrived at the perfection of no knowledge?

and the OT!!!!! shocking shocking sin filled history of sinners sinning

don't read it!

View attachment 213843
Disorder at the Lords table (communion) incest and tongues. Looks like they had a full house of problems. While these things are prevalent in the modern church but I do not think we should just turn a blind eye to the. The tower of Babel is also something we ought not to emulate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I think we need to be careful about blaming the sick. But not having because you have not asked, or not receiving because you have not prayed in faith are two themes found in the book of James. Throughout the gospels there are statements of Christ that indicate healing is related to the faith of the sick individual or others. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man lowered through the roof... 'According to your faith be it unto you..."
Show me in this account where Jesus said this.

Quote the Scriptures.

By the way, if Christ indicated this in one Scripture, it doesn't mean that is the determining factor in all cases. He healed apparent unbelievers sometimes.

The other gigantic assumption is that Jesus' ministry is normative for all believers.

And this is a huge assumption.

Sometimes charismatics will claim that they can do everything Jesus can do, and more. They base this on their faulty understanding of Scripture. But, it is obvious that they cannot. They cannot personally resurrect the dead or themselves like Jesus did.

By the way Jesus did resurrect himself, according to John 2. He said, destroy this Temple and I will raise it in three days. He was talking about his own body.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Jesus still had nail and spear holes. .
How is this relevant? Do you think that the resurrection bodies of believers will have scars from their persecutions and martyrdoms? Or, do you believe Jesus is a special case?

Of course, he is a special case. They are an eternal reminder of his loving sacrifice.

So, I am not sure why you even mentioned this.

This is not proof that the effects of the Curse will be exhibited by believers after the resurrection.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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[QUOTE="presidente, post: 4205701, member: 164050"
I think we need to be careful about blaming the sick. But not having because you have not asked, or not receiving because you have not prayed in faith are two themes found in the book of James. Throughout the gospels there are statements of Christ that indicate healing is related to the faith of the sick individual or others. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man lowered through the roof... 'According to your faith be it unto you..."

Even Paul, when he saw that a man had faith to be healed told him to rise and walk.

In James 5, if the elders pray and the sick isn't healed, if they want to blame anyone for not praying the prayer of faith, they should blame themselves.

Where do you get that? Not asking for healing in faith versus hiding a secret of murdering someone or adultery or whatever is not the same thing. Also, one of the promises of healing is about the elders praying the prayer of faith.

I can tell you don't like 'them' very much, or some things about 'them.' I was raised Pentecostal, but if all I saw of it was the Charismatic WOFers on TV, I might have a negative attitude about it. Honestly, I have had a kind of negative attitude toward WOFers, and many of them have brought this on themselves with scripture-twisting on TV. But spending time overseas and going to church with a mix of expats when I didn't know the language. I met some Rhema grads who seemed to be solid evanglials.

Having faith and believing God in spite of the circumstances is a common theme I have heard from both Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. Healing is actually something the Bible says a lot about, though, and we should believe the teaching of scripture on these things as well.
You paint with a broad brush. I could talk about how non-Pentecostal churches teach that gay marriage is good and let pastors conduct those ceremonies, and I heard one of them had a stripper come in and use her 'gifts' and hold to all kinds of liberal theories. All those things are true. There are cessationists who do not believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead (JWs).

Some of your concerns are the kind of things I've read Pentecostals criticizing some of the WOF teachings over, btw.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, your theology at heart is WoF theology in my opinion because, while you hint at being cautious about blaming sufferers, then you claim that lack of faith is, in fact, related to healings.

So, you are really trying to speak out of both sides of your mouth, which is what I find true about many charismatics and Pentecostals.

Additionally, there is no doubt that believers continue to experience effects of the Curse in different ways, because eventually THEY ALL DIE PHYSICALLY.

And, there are several believers with mental disease...and almost all have bodily ailments...and many wear wigs, hearing aids, and eye glasses.

They can claim they are not affected by the curse, all they want, but even the best charismatics and Pentecostals suffer all these things.

Some even deny they are sick when they are sick due to their kooky beliefs.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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You paint with a broad brush. I could talk about how non-Pentecostal churches teach that gay marriage is good and let pastors conduct those ceremonies, and I heard one of them had a stripper come in and use her 'gifts' and hold to all kinds of liberal theories. All those things are true. There are cessationists who do not believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead (JWs).

Some of your concerns are the kind of things I've read Pentecostals criticizing some of the WOF teachings over, btw.
JWs are not Christians.

And, I dare say that churches which teach gay marriage is valid, and use strippers, are not Christians either.

So, I'm not sure what your point is.

The many things I have brought up are part of the Pentecostal/charismatic community, though...and as you are expressing your precise views more, you are affirming that you believe some of the teachings I find abhorrent.

You said that we need to be careful about blaming the sick for their illness, but at the same time you give verses indicating that lack of faith is the cause for their illness. So, it seems like you are being inconsistent to me.

Logic dictates that you can't take what Christ says in a specific incident and generalize it to all incidences.

Jesus healed individuals who displayed no indication of faith, so the inconsistency is apparent.

By the way, I have no problems with the position that we are commanded to pray for healing concerning our illnesses. My issue is claiming that healing is guaranteed if you have faith, and that those who aren't healed lack faith.

I see too many fat, old, bald men with glasses and poor hearing making such claims. In fact, almost all of the WoF guys are in that category.
 
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7seasrekeyed

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Disorder at the Lords table (communion) incest and tongues. Looks like they had a full house of problems. While these things are prevalent in the modern church but I do not think we should just turn a blind eye to the. The tower of Babel is also something we ought not to emulate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
shame

that is the only occurrence of sexual sin that ever occurred in the whole great big ole world

having been in leadership in a number of churches, I can state unequivocally there is not a church on the planet that does not have sin in places that Joe Smith in the 5th pew, 4 places or so in, has not heard about

another red herring. your aquarium has now reached capacity. please find another logical fallacy with which to dodge facts