Reg Kelly: Can I Eat Pig and Go To Heaven?

[Dude653]

that's so true damombomb i love bacon and im going to heaven

I wonder if pigs are aware of how deliscious they are...

 

[hug-a-bug]

right on dude 653 they do surley.

 

[RedTent]

Feedom3:
I’ve studied the “types”, SO interesting. God’s principles are truly eternal. Loved your recap of them!

We seem to have come to a meeting of minds, except I really believe that when scripture tells us of the “writings that were against us” in Col it means the writings from what the Jews wanted the gentiles to do for us to be included. Those writings haven’t come down to us, but the ideas came from rabbi Shammai we know, and his ideas have come to us. Some writings have mentioned Eighteen Measures they made up, we were to be just like Jews of that time. No one really knows, but it doesn’t tie in with the rest of scripture to say it was the Law of Moses.

 

[feedm3]

Feedom3:

I’ve studied the “types”, SO interesting. God’s principles are truly eternal. Loved your recap of them!

We seem to have come to a meeting of minds, except I really believe that when scripture tells us of the “writings that were against us” in Col it means the writings from what the Jews wanted the gentiles to do for us to be included. Those writings haven’t come down to us, but the ideas came from rabbi Shammai we know, and his ideas have come to us. Some writings have mentioned Eighteen Measures they made up, we were to be just like Jews of that time. No one really knows, but it doesn’t tie in with the rest of scripture to say it was the Law of Moses.

It does tie in perfectly Red, the book of Romans fought against this as well. Paul says, "in food or drink, holidays, the sabbath, all this was looking forward to Christ, and since he is come, there is none binding. We are to follow his words not Moses'.

We cannot serve both the Law of Moses, and Christ at the same time, that is spirutal adultery:

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

The law is dead to us through the death of Christ. He did away with it. Paul is telling the Jews they are free to remarry - i.e. leave the Law of Moses and embrace Christ as their Lord and law.

If the Law was still binding in certain places, it would not be dead, and it would be a sin to serve both, yet because it is dead, the Jews were free to remarry.


4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

There cannot be two laws. We are under Only the NT, the word of Christ. Thanks for you complements, and for your post.
Please know I am not just trying to be argumentative, I just see these passages and infer this is the meaning.

 

[gotime]

Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

here are just two of the scriptures that tell us that pork is unclean. by the way for your information that is God speaking not man.

So now lets examine some of these new testament scriptures that so many seem to think God changed his mind on.

Lets start with Acts 10:


Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

First point, Peter is hungry when he goes into vision.

Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Notice that Peter hears God tell him to eat meats that are forbidden by God in the Old Testament, So Peter says no.

Notice that Peter in the New Testament who was filled with the Holy Spirit, who had the instruction of Jesus when he said its not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, this same Peter refused to eat unclean meats. Thus he clearly knew that they were unclean still.

Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Notice that it happened three times, what happened, God said eat and Peter refused to eat because it was unclean.

Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Now a very important point, Peter did not get the vision, He did not persieve it to be about food, for that matter he was unsure what it was about.

Now why three times?
Answer: Three men came to ask Peter to come to Cornelius's house. Three Gentiles who were considered by the Jews as unclean.


Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Two servants and a soldier.


Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Now see how Peter understands the vision after the events at Cornelius's house.

Act 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
Act 11:11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

There you have it, Peter knew that the vision was not really about food, but about the gentiles. Peter is clear.

No where here is there any hint of God making unclean meats clean unless you ignore the rest of the story and the context.

Lets examine another text used.

Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

First we need to acknowledge a few things, first the word meats here in the greek is (bromata) which means "that which is eaten" in other words food. it in no way is limited to flesh meats. Thus it pays to look up the greek before espousing ones views.

With that in mind context is important.

Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

Notice they were eating bread and the issue was they had not washed their hands it wasn't even the bread itself. So flesh meat is not even in question here. So, so far both the word used and the context leave no room for us to assume anything of clean and unclean meats.

The issue here is the washing of hands. Jesus is simply saying that their traditions are the problem

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Notice again Jesus is speaking about the washing of pots etc.

Here is Jesus point:

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice The point of Jesus is that its not what goes in that makes a man defiled but rather what comes out of the heart. He never says anything about clean or unclean. When we disobey God and eat unclean meats that He said is unclean. its not the eating of the unclean meat that makes you unclean. No its the uncleanness of your heart that causes you to disobey God. the eating of the unclean meat is simply the fruit of a bad heart. Yet as stated Jesus is not even dealing with clean unclean meats.

Again using this passage to prove we can eat anything is a miss use of Jesus' words and that is teaching the commandments of Men because God did not teach it.

Another;

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Now this one is also used, Lets take a quick look at it.

Again the word for meats here is simply foods. it is in no way simply flesh meat. its about all foods. Well which foods?

Simple the foods that are clean. there is no reason to believe that Paul is including unclean meats in this statement. you have to read that into it. Those who know there Old Testament scripture would know that Paul refers here to foods that are sanctioned by God and are clean.

Another point the is brought out here is marriage which is included with the foods. Marrigae is also sanctioned by God. but there are rules, are we to think now that Paul is saying that all the marriage rules are gone now? No God forbid. so why do that to the foods part? It is because we love sin more than God.

Now some get stuck on the "every creature" part and say see its animals, lets just suppose that this is the case. you still have no case for Paul including unclean meats. why? because the verse before said "God hath created to be received" so Paul is only referring to those things that God has given for food. It does not say anything goes.

Another point on the "creature" word is that this word means created, thus Paul is only referring to all things created. Now one might argue that unclean meats are created and they would be correct. however Paul said as mentioned above the foods that were created to be received.

Clearly there is no basis for saying we can eat meats that are unclean that were not given to be received by God. And God even told us that in the Bible. unclean not to be received.

One more:


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The first premise is do not judge, simple. He is not arguing right and wrong but don't judge.

Second Premise is that these meats and drinks and holy days and new moons and Sabbaths were shadows of things to come.

How exactly is unclean meat a shadow of things to come? It simply is not. the context here is clearly about the sacrificial system and the feast days on which they would have only eaten clean meats. so there is no basis here at all for saying that those meats that were unclean are now clean.

So far we have nothing showing a change in the ability to eat swine. WE have direct quotes that show that pork is unclean but nothing showing a change in this.

 

[RedTent]

Neither if us is arguing, we are both searching scripture for God’s way for us and discussing what we each find. We have both given our lives to Christ, we are both saved.

Romans 3:31
Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Matthew 5:17
Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

We are dead to the law in that God is, as God has said since the beginning of time, holy. We can’t make ourselves holy through law, never could. It is God’s grace. We clean ourselves of sin through Christ and receive grace.

 

[feedm3]

Neither if us is arguing, we are both searching scripture for God’s way for us and discussing what we each find. We have both given our lives to Christ, we are both saved.

Romans 3:31
Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Matthew 5:17
Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Both of these passages show us that if one truly upholds the Law, he will accept Jesus as the Messiah and become to dead to the law.
Jesus said he did not "destroy it" as in make us all free from any law, but he fulfilled it.

The word fulfilled is the Gr. word that means completed, the law was temporary until the time of "reformation" and that time came when God sent Christ. He did not have to "destroy" it, to "complete" it, because it was that which testified of him.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ

So Paul could argue to the Jew's effectively that if they truly upheld the Law, they would accept Christ and become dead to the law by marriage to Christ, because that would be truly keeping the Law.

Yet if one wants to continue in the Law, and accept Christ as his messiah, then then Christ becomes a stumbling block, because Christ completed the law in which it cannot be kept because, it can no longer be served in a valid, justifiable way.


I Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God

It is now a stumbling block to them because Christ is our High Priest. Under the Law he could not be so, because he would have to been from the Tribe of Levi, yet he was from Judah. Still, under the NT he is our High Priest, the Jews cannot select a high valid high priest, because no one can take his place. The Law of Moses cannot be carried out as a valid Law system anymore.

This prevents them from serving God under the Law, because the law was temporary and dead. It is represented by the Children of the bond woman - Gal. Yet we are free from that bondage because of Christ, and going back to it, is pointless, and cannot be done anyway, not to any extent of pleasing God.

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched,(Matt 16:18) and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest(Christ), seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things (Col 2:14-f. "which are a shadow the body of Christ"), as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

Vs 2- Notice, the Lord pitched the "true tabernacle" meaning the one built under the Law of Moses is now obsolete, the tabernacle was later built the into the Temple, and Jesus showed his Resurrection would be the rebuilding of that temple, and the physical temple would be thrown down, this was a sign of the end of the mosaic age and law - Matt 24.
Jesus built the "true tabernacle, the true temple" the church - Matt 16:18, which is the body - which is made up of those who are his.

vs. 4 - if on earth he could not be a high priest as long as the Law is binding, because the priests must be from a certain tribe.

vs 5 - says these things serve as "an example and shadow of heavenly things" just as we are told in Col not to be judged by "food drink, holidays, new moons, sabbath," because they are a shadow "but the body of Christ", that have been nailed to the cross, being replaced with the true things they shadowed and the true High priest.

 

[feedm3]

Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

here are just two of the scriptures that tell us that pork is unclean. by the way for your information that is God speaking not man.

Yes, God renderned it unclean under the law they were under. It represented the separation of the Jew's and Gentiles as we see later in Acts 10, is no longer true. It was an abomination, because God said no not eat it under the law they were under. Yet this does not trump over into the NT in which GOD says nothing is to be refused.

So now lets examine some of these new testament scriptures that so many seem to think God changed his mind on.

Lets start with Acts 10:


Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

First point, Peter is hungry when he goes into vision.

Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Notice that Peter hears God tell him to eat meats that are forbidden by God in the Old Testament, So Peter says no.

Notice that Peter in the New Testament who was filled with the Holy Spirit, who had the instruction of Jesus when he said its not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, this same Peter refused to eat unclean meats. Thus he clearly knew that they were unclean still.

Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Notice that it happened three times, what happened, God said eat and Peter refused to eat because it was unclean.

Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Now a very important point, Peter did not get the vision, He did not persieve it to be about food, for that matter he was unsure what it was about.

Now why three times?
Answer: Three men came to ask Peter to come to Cornelius's house. Three Gentiles who were considered by the Jews as unclean.


Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Two servants and a soldier.


Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Now see how Peter understands the vision after the events at Cornelius's house.

Act 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
Act 11:11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

There you have it, Peter knew that the vision was not really about food, but about the gentiles. Peter is clear.

No where here is there any hint of God making unclean meats clean unless you ignore the rest of the story and the context.

This does not prove why God used foods he once said was unclean to represent the Gentiles.

Why would he tell Peter (even in a vision) to eat what he said not to eat, unless that was no longer binding.

In fact, this vision shows us why God rendered some clean some unclean, there would be no reason in using food to relate the message of accepting the Gentiles, why not just use Gentiles. This should teach you why God declared foods as clean and unclean, so it is no mystery why Paul would tell us "every creature is good" and "Nothing to be refused". Yet you are ignroing this, because God used it as a vision and a message.

Lets examine another text used.

Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

First we need to acknowledge a few things, first the word meats here in the greek is (bromata) which means "that which is eaten" in other words food. it in no way is limited to flesh meats. Thus it pays to look up the greek before espousing ones views.

With that in mind context is important.

Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

Notice they were eating bread and the issue was they had not washed their hands it wasn't even the bread itself. So flesh meat is not even in question here. So, so far both the word used and the context leave no room for us to assume anything of clean and unclean meats.

The issue here is the washing of hands. Jesus is simply saying that their traditions are the problem

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Notice again Jesus is speaking about the washing of pots etc.

Here is Jesus point:

Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice The point of Jesus is that its not what goes in that makes a man defiled but rather what comes out of the heart. He never says anything about clean or unclean. When we disobey God and eat unclean meats that He said is unclean. its not the eating of the unclean meat that makes you unclean. No its the uncleanness of your heart that causes you to disobey God. the eating of the unclean meat is simply the fruit of a bad heart. Yet as stated Jesus is not even dealing with clean unclean meats.

Again using this passage to prove we can eat anything is a miss use of Jesus' words and that is teaching the commandments of Men because God did not teach it.

Hmmm another bunch of words trying to explain how jesus did not mean what it says. It does not matter that the issuue was started with the washing of hands.
The response still means what it means. You looked up a greek word that agreed with the translation and proved nothing except the translators did a good job.

It's not what goes into the mouth that defiles....Stop there, here is his response. No the issue that started this was about washing hands. but the response would still condratic God if some meats did defile us. So again we have here another response that proves "nothing is to be refused" just as God told Peter, Paul told timothy, and I am repeating to you.
These lengthy response is just a bunch of words, needed to try and explain away what is stated plain and simple. I see you do this for every passage I ahve brought up, yet nothing is refuting me except you assumption the passages don't mean what they say.

Another;

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

This should be intresting.

Now this one is also used, Lets take a quick look at it.

Again the word for meats here is simply foods. it is in no way simply flesh meat. its about all foods. Well which foods?

Why do you keep repetaing this? Who said meat was not food? This no way helps you, it is just redundant.

Simple the foods that are clean. there is no reason to believe that Paul is including unclean meats in this statement. you have to read that into it. Those who know there Old Testament scripture would know that Paul refers here to foods that are sanctioned by God and are clean.

No, you are reading into and changing the meaning of words, it is sad.

Every - all inclusive EVER CREATURE the includes all God's creation of animals. I dont have to read into that, it just simplpy what it means, you must give a far fetched explianaion saying this does not really include unclean meats, it doesnt, because under the NT there are no unclean meats.

Paul would not say this, knowing there are some foods we are forbidden to eat. This is really sad what your doing just so you can feel right.

You need to prove how EVERY CREATURE does not really mean EVERY CREATURE

Why would Pual say "nothing is to be refused" if there was things that were to be refused??????

The context is FOOD! The Answer is NOTHING TO BE REFUSED of the statement EVERY CREATURE

if their was some food to be refused, now would be the time to say it, because this is the context. Your seriously going to try and explain this away? FAIL

Another point the is brought out here is marriage which is included with the foods. Marrigae is also sanctioned by God. but there are rules, are we to think now that Paul is saying that all the marriage rules are gone now? No God forbid. so why do that to the foods part? It is because we love sin more than God.

No it because you love trying to be right more than truth. This again refutes nothing.

And let me ask you since you bring up Divorce laws. Which are we to follow if the OT laws are not Gone???

Are we to follows Christ - Mat 19:9 - or Moses;
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

This shows Moses really did commad it, it was not just a misinterpretation of the Jews

9 And I say unto you,( This shows the change in the law pertianing to divorce) Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery

So which I am I to follow if they both are binding. This really is not helping you bring this up.

Now some get stuck on the "every creature" part and say see its animals, lets just suppose that this is the case. you still have no case for Paul including unclean meats. why? because the verse before said "God hath created to be received" so Paul is only referring to those things that God has given for food. It does not say anything goes.

Thats' right, and hes labeling those who bind this on others as "false teacher" that do not know the truth.

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

So this is his statement concerning things to be abstained from. So he cannot be speaking of only the clean animals under the OT because the Next verse refutes that showing he is speaking of God's creation.

To be received - does not mean, only the clean animals of OT, this means God created all animals to be received with thanksgiving TO THEM THAT KNOW THE TRUTH because the next verse makes that clear.

Your trying to twist it into meaning what you need it to mean so you can be right, yet look how many passages your having to do this to, when it is clear.

Another point on the "creature" word is that this word means created, thus Paul is only referring to all things created. Now one might argue that unclean meats are created and they would be correct. however Paul said as mentioned above the foods that were created to be received.

More mumbo jumbo dude, none of your points are even senscial, this also does not help you. Every Creature, means every creature, period. That is why the HS choose to use these words when teaching us of what we can eat or not eat, and guess what he also choose the words "nothing to be refused". That would be a lie, if there was in fact "cratures" that were to be refused.

Clearly there is no basis for saying we can eat meats that are unclean that were not given to be received by God. And God even told us that in the Bible. unclean not to be received.

There are alot of basis, Every passge you attempted to refute. You only showed if you change the meaings of the words, it could mean......no thanks. This has been a failure so far, because you are really going to far lengths to attept to twist the word of God, and you logic is allowing to laws for divorce that are against each other. You need to stop now.

One more:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The first premise is do not judge, simple. He is not arguing right and wrong but don't judge.

Wrong again, this was maybe the most sad of all these statements. This has nothing to do with Judging, do you not believe in context or what?

Vs 8 begans with Paul warning the COl of false teachers like you.

He continues to show in verse 10 they are circumzied spirutally and not by the law.

Then he gets to verse 14 after making his point that they have been forgiven and made children of God, even though the law said that gentiles could not be.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,(THE LAW) which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it

THe Law that was against them, the law of Moses, that said Gentiles were unclean, (as in foods) was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross of Christ - NOTHING ABOUT JUDGEING SO FAR

This leads into the next point, therefore let NONE JUDGE YOU on things pertaining to the Law:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Second Premise is that these meats and drinks and holy days and new moons and Sabbaths were shadows of things to come.

NOW HIS POINT, DO NOT LET ANY JUDGE YOU FOR NOT KEEPING THE SABBATH, FROM NOT ABSTAINING FROM CERTAIN MEATS, FROM NOT RESPECTING HOLIDAYS

THERE IS HIS POINT, THEY ARE NAILED TO THE CROSS, YOU WANT US TO BE IN BONDAGE AGAIN, AND YOU ARE DOING EXACTLY WHAT PAUL TOLD THE CHRISTIANS TO NOT LET ANYONE DO, JUDGE THEM ON THE THINGS YOU ARE JUDGING AS STILL BINDING

HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THIS? HOW HAVE TO WANT NOT TO SEE IT. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SIN OF JUDGING, BUT EVERYTHING TO DO WITH DO NOT LET ANYONE JUDGE YOU ON THESE THINGS------THAT INCLUDES YOU!!!!!

NO NEED IN GOING ANY FURTHER ON THIS RESPONSE, YOU HAVE SHOWN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE BASIC PASSAGES PERTAINING TO THIS, AND SHOWED HOW FAR YOU WILL GO TO TWIST THE WORD OF GOD, I HOPE YOU WILL REPENT, AS OF NOW YOU ARE SINNING.

 

[BibleReaderFloridaUSA]

Remember"Romans 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Remember also, Matthew 4:3-5 "3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
& Luke 4:3-5. "3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

 

[Blackson]

Can I Eat Pig and Go To Heaven?

Sermon by Pastor Reg Kelly
Can I refuse Jesus and go to hell? Can I slander, lie a little, can I exaggerate to make a story interesting, can i not eat pork but commit adultry with my girl friend or boy friend and go to hell? The answer would YES, YES, YES, YES, YEEEEEEEESSSSS!
Can I eat pork and go to heave?
Receive Jesus as your personal saviour, eat not only pork, but also snake, lizard, rat, crickets. Keep your righteousness. You will not only go to heaven, you will sit together with Christ in the kingdom.

​

 

[BibleReaderFloridaUSA]

Remember also, "Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

[Blackson]

Remember"Romans 7: 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Remember also, Matthew 4:3-5 "3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
& Luke 4:3-5. "3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

Thank you for these inspiring verses, but surely, I can hardly see the relation with eating pork and bacon here. I do not seem to get what you mean here.

 

[BibleReaderFloridaUSA]

Know that the following is not an empty threat, and do not think that You can be sinning and both love and know the Christ of the Bible at the same time. Remember the scripture. “Isaiah 66:[SUP] 15 [/SUP]For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lordshall be many.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

 

[BibleReaderFloridaUSA]

Do not think that one is excluded from totally needing to keep God's law because he or she considers himself or herself to be a "Christian". Also, do not think that one can actually love or know him without keeping His commandments. Remember the following verses. "Matthew 5 King James Version (KJV) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Remember the saying " You are what you eat " ?

Unclean animals are representative of pagans, and clean animals are representative of saints.

Why God didn't chose a vulture to represent His Spirit in Jesus Baptism ? Why a dove ? Because a vulture represents uncleanness and pagan thought, whereas a dove represents holiness and holy thought.

You are what you eat. But pagans who accept the Lord in their life are purified and sanctified by the Lord and are no longer considered unclean. That's the same about unclean animals. If you ask the Lord to purify and sanctify unclean meat before you eat it, it's proper to eat. But if you eat unclean meat without asking the Lord to purify and sanctify it, it's sin.

Personally, I prefer avoiding to eat any unclean meat. For health reasons. But if I am invited to eat in some place, and there is some pork for instance, if the pork is well cooked, and no awful worms in it,
I would eat it after asking the Lord to purify and sanctify it first.

 

[BibleReaderFloridaUSA]

Do You know that only what and who God sets aside as holy is holy and that no amount of attempted prayer is going to make any unholy thing holy and that it is at least partially a matter of the principle of the thing? Remember and consider very well the following verses from "Isaiah 66. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."

 

[2Thewaters]

Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Do You know that only what and who God sets aside as holy is holy and that no amount of attempted prayer is going to make any unholy thing holy and that it is at least partially a matter of the principle of the thing? Remember and consider very well the following verses from "Isaiah 66. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord."

Well, in these verses the Lord condemns anyone worshiping idols and demons,
and He condemns anyone eating unclean meat sacrificed to idols and demons.

Don't you know that what God has purified is proper to eat ?
Or do you underestimate the power of God to clean anything ?

It's written : " On the morrow as they went on their journey, and drew near unto the city, Peter went up upon the house to pray, about the sixth hour.10 Then waxed he an hungered, and would have eaten: but while they made something ready, he fell into a [g]trance.
11 And he saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel come down unto him, as it had been a great sheet, knit at the[h]four corners, and was let down to the earth.
12 Wherein were [i]all manner of [j]four footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts and [k]creeping things, and fowls of the heaven.
13And there came a voice to him, Arise, Peter: kill, and eat.
14 [l]But Peter said, Not so, Lord: for I have never eaten anything that is polluted, or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, The things that God hath purified, [m]pollute thou not.
16 This was so done thrice: and the vessel was drawn up again into heaven. "
Acts 10: 9-16 ( GNV )

The Lord has spoken. The meat that He has purified, doesn't pollute you,
and hence is not unclean anymore.

 

[Agricola]

not the whole pork thing again and this is bumped from 6 months ago....
Anyway when this comes up I simply state the following, proof is in the pudding.

You can all sit and debate it until the cows come home, but actions are far better than all the endless debate and clever use of words and bible verses.

God provides me with an abundance of food, has been for years, last week was another typical week of provision, £120 worth of food for under £20. When I need my freezer re-stocking or just a few days worth of food, I usually get it for under 20% of full price, this is being in the right place and right time. The staff in shop even comment on it and ask if I have someone watching them and calls me when they are doing the final reductions. Well yes I do!

Anyway, of all the food available today, why is half the food God provides for me is pork? Shoulder Joints of pork, £1. several kilos of bacon, pork sausages, pork chops and so on.

Supporters of pork boycott just come out with things such as God is making that pure or some other nonsense, so that I can eat. Well sorry but God does not bend his laws like that, otherwise the charge of God being a hyprocrite can easily be made, and If God can change his laws and his rules just so that I can eat pork, then that poses serious doubt on Gods promises of salvation and everything else God said.

Another point is that if God said that pork was wrong, then God could easily see to it that I was able to buy cheap chicken and beef instead and never have to touch pork. Holy Spirit has never red flagged pork for me ever.

So I conclude there is nothing wrong with eating pork.

 

[DragonSlayer]

not the whole pork thing again and this is bumped from 6 months ago....
Anyway when this comes up I simply state the following, proof is in the pudding.

You can all sit and debate it until the cows come home, but actions are far better than all the endless debate and clever use of words and bible verses.

God provides me with an abundance of food, has been for years, last week was another typical week of provision, £120 worth of food for under £20. When I need my freezer re-stocking or just a few days worth of food, I usually get it for under 20% of full price, this is being in the right place and right time. The staff in shop even comment on it and ask if I have someone watching them and calls me when they are doing the final reductions. Well yes I do!

Anyway, of all the food available today, why is half the food God provides for me is pork? Shoulder Joints of pork, £1. several kilos of bacon, pork sausages, pork chops and so on.

Supporters of pork boycott just come out with things such as God is making that pure or some other nonsense, so that I can eat. Well sorry but God does not bend his laws like that, otherwise the charge of God being a hyprocrite can easily be made, and If God can change his laws and his rules just so that I can eat pork, then that poses serious doubt on Gods promises of salvation and everything else God said.

Another point is that if God said that pork was wrong, then God could easily see to it that I was able to buy cheap chicken and beef instead and never have to touch pork. Holy Spirit has never red flagged pork for me ever.

So I conclude there is nothing wrong with eating pork.

If I understand well, you eat pork without asking God to purify and sanctify it first ? It's sinful !
God is not hypocrite.
Many humans just don't understand Him because they're temporary blind and deaf.