regenerated

[7seasrekeyed]

I believe that Eph 2:1-5, explains how God gives his Holy Spirit in regeneration to the natural man ( while he was still dead "spiritually". What is your belief on these scriptures?

so here is the scripture:

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Paul is writing to the Ephesian believers and reminding them of how they used to live. where in this portion of scripture do you see anything whatsoever about God giving His Spirit to someone who was dead in their sins? there is nothing there that says anything even close to that

by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph 2:8-9)

salvation is the gift of God. we do not work for salvation. it is God's gift

notice we are SAVED THROUGH FAITH...that is, we put our faith in Christ...THEN we are saved and then we receive the Holy Spirit. you have it backwards. no scripture states we receive the Holy Spirit to make us believe. you cannot find that scripture because it does not exist

the Calvinist viewpoint is that only the ones God chooses are saved and that confuses people and may have confused you

here is what John the Apostle writes about that:

2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. I John 2:2

and some people go the other way and say that means that the entire world will be saved which is also wrong

this is what Jesus Himself says in chapter 3 of John

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness,so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned,but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

when Jesus talks about being lifted up, He means the cross upon which He died. what does He say? Jesus says EVERYONE...EVERYONE...anyone who wants to...may have eternal life IN Him. this means we have a choice as v. 16 goes on to say

Jesus does NOT say only the ones predestined and He does not say everyone in the world will believe. He DOES say everyone who does believe is accepted

read the opening chapters of the book of Acts. that is when the Holy Spirit fell upon the believers. note: THE DISCIPLES WERE ALREADY BELIEVERS AND WERE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS. so how did they believe if God had not yet sent the Holy Spirit to indwell us who believe? some may see this as a two fold act as Jesus had breathed on the disciples and said 'receive the Holy Spirit' but how do you explain the fact that they were told to wait in Jerusalem to receive the Holy Spirit ? how could they already believe in Jesus without being filled?

there is no evidence that God forces people to believe in Him. rather, as we read in the Psalms, EVERYTHING God has created reveals Him to humankind.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yes the natural man is the unregenerate and unsaved man, and he is also the very same man that can not discern spiritual things, such as BELIEVING spiritual things. Therefore, God has to put his Spirit within man before he can discern spiritual things. like accepting spiritual things.

just please read my response above. it applies to this as well

as we grow in Christ we learn more and that includes the deeper things of our salvation. discerning 'spiritual things' ONLY applies to those who are ALREADY saved

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are.


In the case of salvation, no. God is not sovereign in the way Calvinists believe. He does not determine who will be saved. He want's all men to be saved, He is not willing that any should perish, He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).

People need to hear the gospel so they can have a chance to believe it, and once they believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).

I am sorry, you must serve a weaker God than the one that I serve. My God is all powerful and can achieve all of his will. If it was God's will to save all mankind, then all mankind will live in heaven with him. Dan 4:16 says , And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? All scriptures must harmonize. Sovereign is sovereign and no man can change that.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I am sorry, you must serve a weaker God than the one that I serve. My God is all powerful and can achieve all of his will. If it was God's will to save all mankind, then all mankind will live in heaven with him. Dan 4:16 says , And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? All scriptures must harmonize. Sovereign is sovereign and no man can change that.

So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. Ephesians 5:17

sovereign does not mean God is a puppet master. are you forced to make decisions? does a big heavy hand come down and slap you if you choose something for breakfast that does not include your understanding of what sovereignty is?

you will never understand what the will of God is, unless you start believing what the NT states

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are.


In the case of salvation, no. God is not sovereign in the way Calvinists believe. He does not determine who will be saved. He want's all men to be saved, He is not willing that any should perish, He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).

People need to hear the gospel so they can have a chance to believe it, and once they believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).

Eze 33:11, Again lets keep the scriptures in context, Eze 33:2, God is instructing Ezekiel to "speak to the children of thy people ( the house of Israel,) and if you think that God's children can not be wicked, you best study more. Even yourself, and I also do and think wicked things. I will admit that sometimes he refers to the unregenerate as wicked, but you have to keep scripture in the right context. "All men" does not designate all mankind, for example, "Matt 26:33, Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of the, Yet will I never be offended, and I know that he later was offended. Matt 19:11, But he said unto them, all men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. I have already explained 2 Pet 3:9 to you. How about explaining 1 Cor 2:14 to me. All scriptures must harmonize.

 

[shrume]

I am sorry, you must serve a weaker God than the one that I serve. My God is all powerful and can achieve all of his will. If it was God's will to save all mankind, then all mankind will live in heaven with him. Dan 4:16 says , And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? All scriptures must harmonize. Sovereign is sovereign and no man can change that.

The God I serve gave His created beings free will. God is love, and He wants His created beings to choose to love Him.

Forced love is not love. We are not God's pawns or puppets.

God saves people who choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13).

 

[shrume]

Eze 33:11, Again lets keep the scriptures in context, Eze 33:2, God is instructing Ezekiel to "speak to the children of thy people ( the house of Israel,) and if you think that God's children can not be wicked, you best study more.

The people of the house of Israel are not all automatically saved.

Even yourself, and I also do and think wicked things. I will admit that sometimes he refers to the unregenerate as wicked, but you have to keep scripture in the right context. "All men" does not designate all mankind, for example, "Matt 26:33, Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of the, Yet will I never be offended, and I know that he later was offended. Matt 19:11, But he said unto them, all men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Sometimes "all" does mean "all".

I have already explained 2 Pet 3:9 to you.

I do not accept your explanation, nor your explanation of 1 Tim 2:4 or Rom 10:9.

How about explaining 1 Cor 2:14 to me.

Already have. Calvinists grossly overstate the fallen nature of man.

All scriptures must harmonize.

Indeed they must. Calvinism does not harmonize all scripture. It dismisses many of them with a half-baked "explanation".

God does not save people before they believe on Christ.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

definately a dead end thread

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are.


In the case of salvation, no. God is not sovereign in the way Calvinists believe. He does not determine who will be saved. He want's all men to be saved, He is not willing that any should perish, He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eze 33:11).

People need to hear the gospel so they can have a chance to believe it, and once they believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13).

Roger, can you explain to me how the natural man as explained in 1 Cor 2:14 can hear the gospel and believe it? Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not being born of the Spirit. Born again people, after they have had the Holy Spirit within them reveal to them the truth of the gospel, then they are sealed not with the Holy Spirit, which they already have, but they are sealed with THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit, which is the revelation of the truth by the Holy Spirit that already lives within them. All scripture must harmonize!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The people of the house of Israel are not all automatically saved.


Sometimes "all" does mean "all".


I do not accept your explanation, nor your explanation of 1 Tim 2:4 or Rom 10:9.


Already have. Calvinists grossly overstate the fallen nature of man.


Indeed they must. Calvinism does not harmonize all scripture. It dismisses many of them with a half-baked "explanation".

God does not save people before they believe on Christ.

So, all your explanation of 1 Cor 2:14 is,that I overstate the fallen nature of man? Scriptures compliment each other. Where is the scripture, other than the ones you have given, which I have explained them to you, that explains 1 Cor 2:14, or do you just not want to try to explain it? Would it be that you just do not know how to explain it. Come on, I try to explain the scriptures you give me, give it a try.

 

[shrume]

Roger

Please try and keep track of who you are responding to. I am not Roger.

can you explain to me how the natural man as explained in 1 Cor 2:14 can hear the gospel and believe it?

Sure. As I have said before, Calvinists greatly overstate the fallen nature of man. We are to preach the gospel to give people a chance to hear it, and when they hear it, it's up to them to choose to believe it or not, something anyone is capable of doing. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not being born of the Spirit.

It is exactly the same thing. People receive the gift of the Holy Spirit after they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38).

Born again people, after they have had the Holy Spirit within them reveal to them the truth of the gospel, then they are sealed not with the Holy Spirit, which they already have, but they are sealed with THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit, which is the revelation of the truth by the Holy Spirit that already lives within them.

There is no Bible verse that says being sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit is "the revelation of the truth by the Holy Spirit that already lives within them". You just made that up in order to fit your belief.

All scripture must harmonize!

And they must harmonize without changing them, which you are doing.

By the way, Forest, this is the third or fourth time you have responded to my post.

 

[shrume]

So, all your explanation of 1 Cor 2:14 is,that I overstate the fallen nature of man?

Yes.

Scriptures compliment each other.

That's right.

Where is the scripture, other than the ones you have given, which I have explained them to you, that explains 1 Cor 2:14, or do you just not want to try to explain it? Would it be that you just do not know how to explain it.

I did explain it.

Come on, I try to explain the scriptures you give me, give it a try.

The explanations you gave for 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; and Eze 33:11 are not satisfactory. You're just twisting them to fit Calvinism.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The God I serve gave His created beings free will. God is love, and He wants His created beings to choose to love Him.

Forced love is not love. We are not God's pawns or puppets.

God saves people who choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13).

We love God, because he first loved us, not the other way around. You have it backwards! ( 1 John 4:19 ) You are right, God did give man the freedom to choose how he will live his life here on earth, but not in heaven, God made that choice before he ever formed the world. ( Eph 1:4 ).

 

[shrume]

We love God, because he first loved us, not the other way around. You have it backwards!

I did not say it was the other way around.

( 1 John 4:19 ) You are right, God did give man the freedom to choose how he will live his life here on earth

And part of that is the ability to choose to believe the gospel.

but not in heaven, God made that choice before he ever formed the world. ( Eph 1:4 ).

Christianity was predestined, not individual Christians.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. Ephesians 5:17

sovereign does not mean God is a puppet master. are you forced to make decisions? does a big heavy hand come down and slap you if you choose something for breakfast that does not include your understanding of what sovereignty is?

you will never understand what the will of God is, unless you start believing what the NT states

I think you better look up the definition of sovereign. You must have something to base your belief on. You make so many statements that are not backed up by scripture. It seems that you have listened to what some man has taught you, without even considering scripture proof.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I did not say it was the other way around.


And part of that is the ability to choose to believe the gospel.


Not true.

Christianity was predestined, not individual Christians.

Are you saying that Eph 1:4 is "not true"? What bible are you referencing from? The King James says in Eph 1:5, Having predestinated "US", not "IT", Again you better get yourself a good dictionary, us does not mean christianity. It means people.

 

[shrume]

Are you saying that Eph 1:4 is "not true"?

No.

What bible are you referencing from? The King James says in Eph 1:5, Having predestinated "US", not "IT", Again you better get yourself a good dictionary, us does not mean christianity. It means people.

It means us as Christians. Individual people were not predestined to be saved. God gave us free will. Salvation is available to anyone who will decide to believe the gospel, which is something that anyone can choose to do.

God does not determine who will be saved. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). People become saved when they hear the gospel and choose to believe it (Eph 1:13).

Calvinism is a false gospel, Forest.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Please try and keep track of who you are responding to. I am not Roger.


Sure. As I have said before, Calvinists greatly overstate the fallen nature of man. We are to preach the gospel to give people a chance to hear it, and when they hear it, it's up to them to choose to believe it or not, something anyone is capable of doing. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.


It is exactly the same thing. People receive the gift of the Holy Spirit after they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38).
:38

There is no Bible verse that says being sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit is "the revelation of the truth by the Holy Spirit that already lives within them". You just made that up in order to fit your belief.


And they must harmonize without changing them, which you are doing.

By the way, Forest, this is the third or fourth time you have responded to my post.

I think that I have already explained Acts 2:38 to you, but I will repeat. These men were "pricked" in the heart, in other words, their conscience was pricked. The natural man' has no spiritual conscience. and cannot discern spiritual things. I have not changed any scriptures, I have quoted them word for word. It is you that makes absurd statements with no scriptural back up.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No.


It means us as Christians. Individual people were not predestined to be saved. God gave us free will. Salvation is available to anyone who will decide to believe the gospel, which is something that anyone can choose to do.

God does not determine who will be saved. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). People become saved when they hear the gospel and choose to believe it (Eph 1:13).

Calvinism is a false gospel, Forest.

So, the natural man that does not have the Spirit dwelling within him, and can not discern anything that is of a spiritual nature, says Oh, I think that I will decide to believe all of these spiritual things that the gospel is talking about, because I can discern spiritual things, I don't care what the apostle Paul says about me not being able to discern spiritual things. Paul is telling lies about me, and SHRUME, you should not believe anything that that lying Paul says. Does that fit the way you are thinking? There are scriptures that I have given to you that you are completely ignoring.

 

[shrume]

I think that I have already explained Acts 2:38 to you, but I will repeat. These men were "pricked" in the heart, in other words, their conscience was pricked. The natural man' has no spiritual conscience. and cannot discern spiritual things. I have not changed any scriptures, I have quoted them word for word. It is you that makes absurd statements with no scriptural back up.

The natural man can hear the gospel and choose to believe it.