In this forum, Yeshua, Jesus, is the Master and Source Authority on all necessary truth. As for the history of man and worship, the Bible does explain everything, however one must believe and read. As for authorities outside of the Holy Scriptures, this would be a deviation from the Author of all that is, Jesus Christ, Yeshua. If you go away from Him you may find answers that satisfy the worldly, but not the soul. When I refer to the Word, I refer to it from Genesis through Revelation inclusive. God is that good in that He will personally teach anyone who truly seeks. Blessed be our Lord, Yeshua, amen.
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I believe it can be very good to check with writings outside scripture as long as we know scripture is of God and outside is of men.
If we don’t learn the culture, the way words meant in a certain age, the way God has worked in the world by looking at history, we can misunderstand what scripture is telling us. The OT was written to a people who thought what is called Hebrew thought, we think in Greek thought. If we read about the difference, or learn the ancient Hebrew language we can understand OT scripture better. Even a simple thing like reading the laws that Constantine enacted and what he did for Christianity gives us a clearer understanding of the attitudes of the church today and helps us check our understanding. Reading the agendas of the church councils through the years helps us see how they felt that following Constantine’s lead was biblical.
If we don’t learn the culture, the way words meant in a certain age, the way God has worked in the world by looking at history, we can misunderstand what scripture is telling us. The OT was written to a people who thought what is called Hebrew thought, we think in Greek thought. If we read about the difference, or learn the ancient Hebrew language we can understand OT scripture better. Even a simple thing like reading the laws that Constantine enacted and what he did for Christianity gives us a clearer understanding of the attitudes of the church today and helps us check our understanding. Reading the agendas of the church councils through the years helps us see how they felt that following Constantine’s lead was biblical.
And you know this because? And how do you authenticate or dismiss? There are articles of faith which are dictated by the hierarchy of the RCC, why is it not allowed with the vast number of believers who are not members of the RCC. The RCC is always publishing encyclicals and the like, and I could just as easily dismiss those. Actually, I do.
M
Why bring up roman catholicism in a completely different thread? There are already other threads for you to discuss your disdain for it.
You dont need to be so rude, you could have just asked him to provide a source for his information and not try to derail the thread.
Anyway, I was just curious, as i was reading an article on the worldwide flood, one source states that the Israelites picked up the flood account from the Assyrians, and scientifically speaking a worldwide flood is not possible. I'll link it here: The Bible and Interpretation
You dont need to be so rude, you could have just asked him to provide a source for his information and not try to derail the thread.
Anyway, I was just curious, as i was reading an article on the worldwide flood, one source states that the Israelites picked up the flood account from the Assyrians, and scientifically speaking a worldwide flood is not possible. I'll link it here: The Bible and Interpretation
I bring it up because a member of the RCC is dismissing the Book of Yasher, and because this person is a papist the subject is naturally part of the iquisition, sorry, investigation. And what is this to you? I have dealt with Subito in the past. If he loves Yeshua as his Savior in spirit and truth, his affiliation is superfluous to me, however not to the dismissal of an entire work of Holy Scripture. Now I will be off to the Eurocup for a while, but please, let those addressed address what is posted to their attention, decorum.
S
Yeah, but the encyclicals exist in an authoritative form today. There are dozens of works going by the title "The Book of Jasher", a number of which are proven forgeries and the others being rabbinical treatises, all varying in content. from no earlier than the 12th century AD.
But I cannot prove a negative, so it falls on you to prove that the Book of Jasher as it existed in the time of Samuel exists today.
But I cannot prove a negative, so it falls on you to prove that the Book of Jasher as it existed in the time of Samuel exists today.
We as Christians shouldn't worry about when religion came into being. All of the pagan nonsense out there will only lead you astray from Gods Word and His plan. Hinduism, Buddhism, Talmudism.... all are self serving and full of vanity and deceit. Many pagan religions hold a symbol of a serpent or a dragon as their deity, all we have to do is read in Revelations that the serpent, and the dragon, are satan.
Although you may hear that Christianity spawned from Judaism, there are but a few things further from the truth! Christianity, at least the form we see rampant in the world today, is a far cry from the strict teachings of God Almighty in the Bible. The Southern Kingdom of Judah, the people that are referred to as 'jews', was held in Babylonian captivity and adopted many customs and traditions which they incorporated into the original truth.
Christianity is not a religion, it is a REALITY. And the more you open your heart to the blessings and the voice of God, seeking His spirit to give you eyes to see and ears to hear, you will find there are many things which will be deemed iniquitous in the end.
There is but ONE God, and His name is Yahweh Elohim. Pay no attention to the babblings of men, dear kinsfolk, their hearts are far from God seeking to justify their lives with Gods word. This is why many fall to the wayside, they are convicted by what the Word teaches, and many have a hard time pointing the finger at themselves in order to repent.
Yah bless
Although you may hear that Christianity spawned from Judaism, there are but a few things further from the truth! Christianity, at least the form we see rampant in the world today, is a far cry from the strict teachings of God Almighty in the Bible. The Southern Kingdom of Judah, the people that are referred to as 'jews', was held in Babylonian captivity and adopted many customs and traditions which they incorporated into the original truth.
Christianity is not a religion, it is a REALITY. And the more you open your heart to the blessings and the voice of God, seeking His spirit to give you eyes to see and ears to hear, you will find there are many things which will be deemed iniquitous in the end.
There is but ONE God, and His name is Yahweh Elohim. Pay no attention to the babblings of men, dear kinsfolk, their hearts are far from God seeking to justify their lives with Gods word. This is why many fall to the wayside, they are convicted by what the Word teaches, and many have a hard time pointing the finger at themselves in order to repent.
Yah bless
for me religion didn't start until 2009 when i was 36. then i saw how it had been a part of my whole life and a part of world history. isn't that really whats important for this kind of question. when did it start for you? how did it happen ? that is why we act as a witness to Christianity. we tell anyone about it. the bible is true, it happened to me. non believers might never be convinced by the bible or by a witness. we hope when they hear a witness they may reconsider. its all we can do. the choice remains theirs to make.
if only there was a tree the non believer could eat from to gain knowledge about God... oh wait... maybe not.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
if only there was a tree the non believer could eat from to gain knowledge about God... oh wait... maybe not.
duewell
mark 4 v 11-13
There are many trees from which to gain knowledge from, we can have a lengthy discussion about this topic, but I contend that the trees in Eden weren't literal trees, just as the serpent wasn't a literal snake. There were people here before Adam, as can be evidenced when Cain not only found a wife and built a city(for whom exactly) but also because he feared that someone would kill him if he were found. Too much scriptural support to think otherwise. but again, we can do private messages or another thread, but I think it is a topic which should be discussed.
Yah bless
Yah bless
Genesis is by far one of the most complex parables ever. We can see numerous references to 'trees' throughout scripture.
"Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him (Ezekiel 31:3-9)."
What trees can 'envy' another? Also, waters are representative of people as well, just food for thought.
More examples of how trees are used in a figurative sense to describe people or bloodlines are scattered throughout scripture like this verse found in Jeremiah 11:19 where is states "Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered." In Matthew 3:10 we also read "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Most of Christendom has even heard Christ's teachings on this same topic when dealing with mankind in Matthew 7:17 where He proclaimed "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." It's very obvious that trees are symbolic of people, both good and bad. At this point I think I should expand on this term 'fruit.'
In Genesis 3:1-3, Satan called 'serpent' (Revelation 12:9) or the 'enchanter' says to Eve "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Eve replies "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Interesting of note here is the word 'fruit' which stems from the Hebrew word perîy (pronounced per-ee') and according to Strong's Concordance it means "to bear fruit, grow or increase." Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions explains the word much more specifically with the straight-forward definition of "fruit, offspring, children, progeny (of the womb)."
My intention is really not to expand upon what happened in the Garden of Eden by explaining the word 'touch' means "to lie with" or 'eat' and 'ate' means "to partake." The fact of the matter is the account is simple and hopefully what I've stated so far sheds light on why "The eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked" and why Seth (whom the future Messiah would eventually spring from and name means 'substitute') is listed in Adam's genealogy and not Cain (Genesis 5:3). A word to the wise should be sufficient. My intention is more to prove that Satan and several other 'trees' were in the Garden of Yahweh and they were all people. Keep in mind that Satan's number "is the number of a man (Revelation 13:18)" or as a fallen angel is the "perfect man."
"Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him (Ezekiel 31:3-9)."
What trees can 'envy' another? Also, waters are representative of people as well, just food for thought.
More examples of how trees are used in a figurative sense to describe people or bloodlines are scattered throughout scripture like this verse found in Jeremiah 11:19 where is states "Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered." In Matthew 3:10 we also read "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Most of Christendom has even heard Christ's teachings on this same topic when dealing with mankind in Matthew 7:17 where He proclaimed "Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." It's very obvious that trees are symbolic of people, both good and bad. At this point I think I should expand on this term 'fruit.'
In Genesis 3:1-3, Satan called 'serpent' (Revelation 12:9) or the 'enchanter' says to Eve "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" Eve replies "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." Interesting of note here is the word 'fruit' which stems from the Hebrew word perîy (pronounced per-ee') and according to Strong's Concordance it means "to bear fruit, grow or increase." Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions explains the word much more specifically with the straight-forward definition of "fruit, offspring, children, progeny (of the womb)."
My intention is really not to expand upon what happened in the Garden of Eden by explaining the word 'touch' means "to lie with" or 'eat' and 'ate' means "to partake." The fact of the matter is the account is simple and hopefully what I've stated so far sheds light on why "The eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked" and why Seth (whom the future Messiah would eventually spring from and name means 'substitute') is listed in Adam's genealogy and not Cain (Genesis 5:3). A word to the wise should be sufficient. My intention is more to prove that Satan and several other 'trees' were in the Garden of Yahweh and they were all people. Keep in mind that Satan's number "is the number of a man (Revelation 13:18)" or as a fallen angel is the "perfect man."
R
i already explained why this so called 'book of jasher' is a medieval fraud and not the book of jasher mentioned in the bible...the book gives away its medieval origin by using medieval european place names in its version of the table of nations...
unfortunately there are a lot of people who prefer imaginative superstition over the word of God...both at the time this forgery was published and also today
unfortunately there are a lot of people who prefer imaginative superstition over the word of God...both at the time this forgery was published and also today
R
there actually are scientific models for a worldwide flood...for example see the catastrophic plate tectonics model of dr. john baumgardner here... http://www.globalflood.org/papers/2003ICCcpt.html
ancient mesopotamian flood accounts are inferior to the biblical flood account...such as in the design of the ark... also there are differences in detail between the ancient mesopotamian myths and the biblical account that indicate that the biblical history came first...
ancient mesopotamian flood accounts are inferior to the biblical flood account...such as in the design of the ark... also there are differences in detail between the ancient mesopotamian myths and the biblical account that indicate that the biblical history came first...
R
if the trees in the garden of eden weren't literal then how could adam and eve make clothes from their leaves?
if the serpent wasn't a literal snake then why is the serpent cursed to crawl on its belly like a real snake?
cain married his sister or possibly his niece at some unspecified time after leaving eden...
cain built a city for his family and the nation he was founding...
cain was afraid that future children of adam and brothers of abel would come after him...
it is really sad that so many christians think these easily answered objections cast legitimate doubt on the historical interpretation of scripture...
if the serpent wasn't a literal snake then why is the serpent cursed to crawl on its belly like a real snake?
cain married his sister or possibly his niece at some unspecified time after leaving eden...
cain built a city for his family and the nation he was founding...
cain was afraid that future children of adam and brothers of abel would come after him...
it is really sad that so many christians think these easily answered objections cast legitimate doubt on the historical interpretation of scripture...
"if the trees in the garden of eden weren't literal then how could adam and eve make clothes from their leaves?"
Think about it for a minute, instead of getting irate just because I approach you with a different understanding than you. Aren't we supposed to 'Reason together' within scriptures. Isaiah 1:18 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" Isaiah 28:13
"Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.." Ezekial 31. I recommend a thorough study of this entire chapter of Ezekial.
"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 3:10 and again in Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."
So it can be asserted that it is quite evident that people are trees in a metaphorical sense. Even today, some people trace their family 'tree' to see their roots and origins.
"if the serpent wasn't a literal snake then why is the serpent cursed to crawl on its belly like a real snake?"
Consider that Adam (hebrew AwDawm Strongs #119 - 'to be ruddy, to show blood in the face, to blush and turn rosy') was formed of the 'dust of the ground' Genesis 2:7;8 Went Cain went forth with his brother Abel to offer their sacrifice, rather than offer blood from the best of his flock(which he had none because we are told he was a tiller of the ground) he brought the fruits of the ground. These are things which God had natural created to grow on their own. It takes effort to raise animals and prepare them properly for a sacrifice. We can also assert that they would have been twins, because traditionally boys became men at a particular time in their lives.
Cain was also cursed with a mark, a very defining feature that would make him noticeable to any man on earth. NOT the descendants of Adam and Eve, as this is simply not based in fact. Archaeology has already proven that different races of people existed at different times on this earth. We know, for a fact, that by the chronological order of scripture according to Usher, says Adam was created around 4004 BC. There is some debate to this, as it could esily be 1000 years prior.
By this point, the Mongolian race was well developed and flourishing in their lands to the east of Eden. Which is where Cain went. To the land of Nod(wandering) to the east of Eden. So Cain went wandering to the easy, and he found a wife and they had many children. But no man would ever build an entire city for his coming family. it would take years upon years for a whole mess of men to build an entire city, and then it would take hundreds of years for one man to populate an entire region.
In Revelation 20:2 we are taught, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"
Im sorry to say, but if you still believe that childrens tale that Eve ate an apple or a fig, then you are largely misled sister. I pray that you actually take the time to study these words in spirit and in truth. May God continue to increase His knowledge upon this land in the last days.
Yah bless
[COLOR]
Think about it for a minute, instead of getting irate just because I approach you with a different understanding than you. Aren't we supposed to 'Reason together' within scriptures. Isaiah 1:18 "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" Isaiah 28:13
"Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.." Ezekial 31. I recommend a thorough study of this entire chapter of Ezekial.
"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matthew 3:10 and again in Matthew 7:18 "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."
So it can be asserted that it is quite evident that people are trees in a metaphorical sense. Even today, some people trace their family 'tree' to see their roots and origins.
"if the serpent wasn't a literal snake then why is the serpent cursed to crawl on its belly like a real snake?"
Consider that Adam (hebrew AwDawm Strongs #119 - 'to be ruddy, to show blood in the face, to blush and turn rosy') was formed of the 'dust of the ground' Genesis 2:7;8 Went Cain went forth with his brother Abel to offer their sacrifice, rather than offer blood from the best of his flock(which he had none because we are told he was a tiller of the ground) he brought the fruits of the ground. These are things which God had natural created to grow on their own. It takes effort to raise animals and prepare them properly for a sacrifice. We can also assert that they would have been twins, because traditionally boys became men at a particular time in their lives.
Cain was also cursed with a mark, a very defining feature that would make him noticeable to any man on earth. NOT the descendants of Adam and Eve, as this is simply not based in fact. Archaeology has already proven that different races of people existed at different times on this earth. We know, for a fact, that by the chronological order of scripture according to Usher, says Adam was created around 4004 BC. There is some debate to this, as it could esily be 1000 years prior.
By this point, the Mongolian race was well developed and flourishing in their lands to the east of Eden. Which is where Cain went. To the land of Nod(wandering) to the east of Eden. So Cain went wandering to the easy, and he found a wife and they had many children. But no man would ever build an entire city for his coming family. it would take years upon years for a whole mess of men to build an entire city, and then it would take hundreds of years for one man to populate an entire region.
In Revelation 20:2 we are taught, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"
Im sorry to say, but if you still believe that childrens tale that Eve ate an apple or a fig, then you are largely misled sister. I pray that you actually take the time to study these words in spirit and in truth. May God continue to increase His knowledge upon this land in the last days.
Yah bless
[COLOR]
R
just because trees symbolize people in ezekiel doesn't mean trees are always symbols of people and never real trees elsewhere in the bible...
abraham served food to his visitors under a tree...were they sitting underneath a person?
abraham planted a tree...was he planting a person?
jacob took branches from trees and peeled the bark away from them for his sheep breeding work...was jacob dismembering people and skinning their body parts?
jacob buried his family's idols under a tree...were they buried underneath a person?
in exodus the hail destroys the trees growing in egypt's fields...were there people growing in the fields?
at the feast of tabernacles the israelites were commanded to take branches from trees...were they dismembering people?
in deuteronomy moses gives the israelites permission to cut down non fruit trees to make siege works...were they building machines out of dead people?
the border of the tribe of naphtali began at a specific tree...was there a person standing there for years and years to mark that border?
jesus cursed a fig tree because there were no figs on it for him to eat...was he cursing a person for not carrying any figs with him?
jesus taught about mustard seeds that grew into trees...do mustard seeds grow into people?
and just in case you still don't see the obvious from all of that...
from deuteronomy 20:19..."Are the trees people, that you should besiege them?"
it takes effort to grow crops too...like God said it would when he cursed the ground because of adam...and as lamech acknowledged when he named noah...
mongolian people are probably one of the many nations descended from magog son of noah...which makes them descendants of adam just like everyone else on earth...
the biblical word for 'city' in the story of cain does not have to mean something like new york city...the word can also accommodate something like a cluster of tents within an enclosure...which is probably how cain's city started out...and later on he and his descendants could have expanded it over time as their nation grew until it eventually became a really big city like the kind you are picturing...