Requirements of Salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
I have had other unfruitful water baptism discussions with you. Your position is water baptism is a salvation requirement. We disagree, out of respect to a brother Christian I'll briefly reply.

In my opinion adding anything to faith in Christ sin payment & resurrection. Claims what Jesus did/suffered is inadequate & somehow it's our great works/obedience that are necessary.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(NOTE: By the obedience of one/JESUS.)

Your opening statement here was:
Quote: ""The New Testament began on the Day of Pentecost when the promised Holy Ghost fell"" end quote...

We agree here, in that, God's salvation/eternally sealing gift the indwelling Holy Spirit is the new covenant.

Read what you replied to me:

You posted this:
Acts 10:44-48 Holy Ghost given first, water baptism in Jesus' name afterward. (Gentiles)
(My reply: These gentiles, vs 44, they heard & believed, the Holy Spirit came upon them. No repentance, no water baptism, no Mosaic law keeping etc. Vs 45 The onlooking Jews were ASTONISHED that the ON Gentiles was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. By faith & faith alone these gentiles received God's salvation/eternally sealing gift the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You said:
Acts 19:2-6 Had been water baptized by John the Baptist, Paul re-baptized them in Jesus' name, Holy Ghost received afterward. (Jews)
(My reply: John's baptism remissed/pardoned nothing & couldn't invoke the Holy Spirit's baptism. Only faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection & only Jesus can do that)

Acts 22:16 Holy Ghost first, water baptism in Jesus' name in order to wash away sins. (Apostle Paul-Jewish)
(My reply: It isn't the water that washed away Pauls sins. It was calling on/believing that Jesus was their long promised Messiah.)

The closing statment in my post was:

Two Ordinance the Lord invoked: Partake in Water Baptism & the Lords Supper. This will be my last post to you in this thread. Best wishes, FD
The point I was trying to convey was that obedience to water baptism was required in all the referenced cases. If water baptism played no part in the NT salvation plan why were the people commanded to submit to it?

Why command Cornelius and others to submit to it even after they received the Holy Ghost?

And, if water baptism was not necessary, why did Paul bother to re-baptize the Ephesus disciples into the name of the Lord Jesus?
It seems to point to the fact that John the Baptist's initial message that everyone must submit to baptism for repentance was to introduce the concept. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection water baptism took on spiritual significance when done in His name.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
Totally wrong. Sin is not on the outside that it can be washed away like dirt. Very serious error in soteriology. Spiritually lethal to mix grace and works.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You are right. Sin is not something that can be washed off the outside of a body by water.

According to the bible, water baptism holds spiritual significance. It is a part of the new birth experience designed by God. Everyone is commanded to obey and submit to it.

Think of it this way: a natural baby is born when they come forth out of the water of their mother's womb. A spiritual re-birth entails coming out of the waters of baptism. This would be consistent with scripture that states that one can see spiritual truths by what God created in our world.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,774
634
113
Point? I never brought up water baptism. Or did I?

Oh, ok, whatever...

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

I guess Paul and Silas need to get educated by some internet posters.
I commented using the additional verses. (Acts 16:30-34)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,396
770
113
The point I was trying to convey was that obedience to water baptism was required in all the referenced cases. If water baptism played no part in the NT salvation plan why were the people commanded to submit to it?

Why command Cornelius and others to submit to it even after they received the Holy Ghost?

And, if water baptism was not necessary, why did Paul bother to re-baptize the Ephesus disciples into the name of the Lord Jesus?
It seems to point to the fact that John the Baptist's initial message that everyone must submit to baptism for repentance was to introduce the concept. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection water baptism took on spiritual significance when done in His name.
It is required in the sense of IDENTIFICATION and not Salvation.
 

JBTN

Active member
Feb 11, 2020
134
50
28
The point I was trying to convey was that obedience to water baptism was required in all the referenced cases. If water baptism played no part in the NT salvation plan why were the people commanded to submit to it?

Why command Cornelius and others to submit to it even after they received the Holy Ghost?

And, if water baptism was not necessary, why did Paul bother to re-baptize the Ephesus disciples into the name of the Lord Jesus?
It seems to point to the fact that John the Baptist's initial message that everyone must submit to baptism for repentance was to introduce the concept. After Jesus' death, burial and resurrection water baptism took on spiritual significance when done in His name.
Let me just say that when I started studying Acts 10:47-48 in Greek I was fascinated by what I found In Thayer’s Lexicon.

Acts 10:47-48 ESV

”Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

The Greek word for withhold is kolysai it comes from koluo (Strong’s #2967). It means to hinder. If I can withhold something then I have complete control of it. If the meaning is to hinder, that implies that my ability to affect it is limited. As I dug into Thayer’s lexicon under koluo I found the first part of Acts 10:47 rendered this way.

Can anyone hinder the water (which offers itself), that these should not be baptized?

Thayer’s version indicates that the water is not H2O for immersing someone in, but a metaphor for the Holy Spirit itself.

In addition to this, the word commanded in Acts 10:48 also means to place at.

Now when I read Acts 10:48 the picture I see is Peter saying to the Household of Cornelius “You have been immersed in the onomati/name/cause of Jesus Christ.”
 

BlessedCreator

Active member
Apr 22, 2020
105
48
28
Jesus said, believe in Me and you shall be saved. So it's that simple, everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved.
There's a big difference in believing that someone exists and believing in them. I believe that Donald Trump exists and that he is the best president ever, but I don't believe in everything he says and does.
If it was that easy to be saved from hell then we wouldn't have scriptures such as Matthew 7:13-14 that warn us that few people will be saved.

James 2:19 KJB
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. "

James 2:13-26 KJB
"13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Matthew 7:13-14 KJB
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,396
770
113
I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

John 3:3 KJB
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.

Matthew 7:14
"because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

We see from the verse below that they that do the will of God, that keep His commandments and precepts
taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, will be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that He
is the true messiah, that He really is God in the flesh, is the absolute first step anyone must take on the
path of salvation. It is the first commandment of God we must obey, to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
For why would anyone even begin to consider keeping His commandments and obey Him if you didn't believe He
was who He said He was.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven."

When it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ it should always be accompanied with the explanation that
obedience, love and duty to and for Him is also required in this faith.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

We see that faith (trust) in God is really false faith without doing the works of God. What works are these?
These works are the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God. For example, overcoming the world,
and the lusts there of, giving alms, preaching the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, encouraging one another, loving one another,
honoring your parents, not hating anyone, not stealing, etc. These are just a few of the many holy commandments
given to us by God in the Holy Bible.

1 John 2:17
"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

If the entire Bible could be summed up in one verse I would choose the following.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Understanding faith and grace.
Faith means to have trust and hope in God.
Grace means the favor of God.
To have faith (trust) in God you must have a good conscious toward Him.
To have a good conscious toward God you must obey Him.
Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
If you are obedient to God's commandments and precepts He will give you true faith, real trust in Him.
He will show you that you can trust in Him by the protection of His Spirit (the Holy Spirit).
Grace and obedience also go hand in hand.
If you are obedient, the grace (favor) of God will be upon you and all that you do.

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The above verse is not saying that baptism literally saves us. It is saying that by being baptized
you are keeping God's commandment which will allow you to begin to have a good conscience towards
God because of your obedience. Just as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a commandment, so also is baptism.
Continue seeking God's will in all that you do to continue with a good conscience toward God.

If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God,
start in the New Testament at the gospel of
Matthew, in a King James Bible (PDF above) and
read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.
I am a KJV bible believer, but I don't subscribe to this post. That's is not what KJV means in context and what most KJVO's so called that I know on their belief on salvation. We are saved plainly by the Gospel of Christ. You do not "read every word" in the Book of Matthew and "do exactly..".
 

BlessedCreator

Active member
Apr 22, 2020
105
48
28
Someone’s Catholic.
I am not Catholic, no where near it. I preach sound doctrine. They that live in obedience unto God's will (His commandments and precepts taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible) will be saved. They that do not, will perish.

"He that doeth the will of God abideth forever"
 

BlessedCreator

Active member
Apr 22, 2020
105
48
28
Oh, ok, whatever...

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

I guess Paul and Silas need to get educated by some internet posters.
By your logic even demons will be saved. But we know that is not going to happen.

James 2:19 KJB
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. "


Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't mean merely to believe, but also to obey Him.
 

BlessedCreator

Active member
Apr 22, 2020
105
48
28
I am a KJV bible believer, but I don't subscribe to this post. That's is not what KJV means in context and what most KJVO's so called that I know on their belief on salvation. We are saved plainly by the Gospel of Christ. You do not "read every word" in the Book of Matthew and "do exactly..".
Corrupted Bibles and doctrines of salvation are two different subjects. You can have a KJB reader preaching doctrines of demons.

We are saved through faith. Faith means to have trust/confidence in God. To have trust in God you must have a good conscience toward God (1 Peter 3:21). To have a good conscience towards God you must obey Him (His commandments & precepts taught in the Holy Bible).

"he that doeth the will of God abideth forever" - 1 John 2:17
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,939
3,352
113
By your logic even demons will be saved. But we know that is not going to happen.

James 2:19 KJB
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. "


Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't mean merely to believe, but also to obey Him.
Excuse me. Let's try some logic if that's what floats your boat.
The demons believe that God is one, but that is not sufficient.
It is not sufficient because, Jesus did not become an angel and die for the sins of angels.
Therefore they have no promise of eternal life as mankind has. Jesus did become man and died for our sins and rose from the dead obtaining salvation as a free gift for us. To those who look to Him for salvation alone, He robes with the garments of His righteousness.
No wonder the devils tremble.
You will tremble too when you come up before Judgment and try to offer your works as an atonement for your sins thus trodding underfoot the precious blood of Jesus Christ.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:28-29)
 

BlessedCreator

Active member
Apr 22, 2020
105
48
28
Excuse me. Let's try some logic if that's what floats your boat.
The demons believe that God is one, but that is not sufficient.
It is not sufficient because, Jesus did not become an angel and die for the sins of angels.
Therefore they have no promise of eternal life as mankind has. Jesus did become man and died for our sins and rose from the dead obtaining salvation as a free gift for us. To those who look to Him for salvation alone, He robes with the garments of His righteousness.
No wonder the devils tremble.
You will tremble too when you come up before Judgment and try to offer your works as an atonement for your sins thus trodding underfoot the precious blood of Jesus Christ.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:28-29)
My works are not mine own. My works are simply obeying God's commandments so I can have a good conscience toward Him.

Why do you think Jesus told us that unprofitable servants will be cast into outer darkness?
Because they did not obey Him to bear good fruit.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,939
3,352
113
My works are not mine own. My works are simply obeying God's commandments so I can have a good conscience toward Him.
So after you do your good works, who gets the glory and why?
Why do you think Jesus told us that unprofitable servants will be cast into outer darkness? Because they did not obey Him to bear good fruit.
We obey him because it is part of our new nature as His sons, we are not stewards by nature. He will not cast off His sons.
 

BlessedCreator

Active member
Apr 22, 2020
105
48
28
So after you do your good works, who gets the glory and why?

We obey him because it is part of our new nature as His sons, we are not stewards by nature. He will not cast off His sons.
But we still must obey Him, it is choice to do those works of obedience or not. Without them your faith is dead. Just as scripture tells us in James chapter 2. He will cast off unprofitable servants (Matthew 25:30). Thats why the lukewarm church in Revelation was warned they would be spewed out.
 

EternalFire

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
490
278
63
Simon the sorcerer in Samaria is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. (verses 20-21) Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ.

In Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit which is the exception, not the rule.

There are different levels of belief, and different objects of belief, and not all that’s called "belief" is saving belief in Christ. In the parable of the soils, we see a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. (Matthew 13:20-21; Luke 8:6). Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart to believe the gospel.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

I know multiple people who had been water baptized in various false religions and cults, including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism etc... but were not saved at the time they first received water baptism because they did not truly believe the gospel. I was one of them. Upon later coming to believe the gospel and joining a Christian church, such people were re-baptized and this time it was "believers" baptism. The Roman Catholic church baptizes infants who are not even capable of believing the gospel. So if you can believe that every single "professing" Christian who has ever lived truly believed the gospel when they received water baptism, then you can believe anything and are extremely naive!
One case at a time, please. Luke clearly states that Simon believed and was baptized. He even continued with Philip. Simon did not reject the Gospel. This case cannot be used as evidence of someone rejecting the Gospel and then being baptized.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,664
113
I am not Catholic, no where near it. I preach sound doctrine. They that live in obedience unto God's will (His commandments and precepts taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible) will be saved. They that do not, will perish.

"He that doeth the will of God abideth forever"
I’m glad you’re not Catholic.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
22,131
10,938
113
55
This case cannot be used as evidence of someone rejecting the Gospel and then being baptized.
I disagree and I thoroughly presented why in post #161. You just don’t want to look at all the facts.
 

EternalFire

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
490
278
63
Totally wrong. Sin is not on the outside that it can be washed away like dirt. Very serious error in soteriology. Spiritually lethal to mix grace and works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21).