Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Carry_Your_Name]

When God made us in His image, He gave us the gift of 'free will'. This gift of free will allows each of us to reject God and His love in entirety, any time we choose to do so. It wasn't God's will that Judas despaired and hung himself from a tree, but God respected Judas' free will to do so. God respected the Prodigal Son's free will to leave Him for the things of the world. God never pleaded with the son to stay. God let him go.

And God greatly respect our free will to stay with Him or abandon Him. If any of us ends up in hell, it won't be God's will, instead it will be because that is what we chose.

God gave us a free will to choose for or against Him. When you choose, keep your eyes wide open and your mind clear.
You will be faced with many choices in your life, salvation or damnation, God or Satan, evil or good. When you choose, reach out for what you choose. For sure, you will receive what you choose.

You always have the choice of leaving God any time you want.

It acutally works in the opposite direction - seeking God through Christ is a choice, turning away from Him is natural. In Adam all have sinned, all have fallen short of grace and running a hell-bound race, so that's the default setting, the fleshly desire of the body contrary to the way of God. Only in Christ is salvation, and that's what free will is for.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God respects your free will so much that He'll allow you to leave Him, His love and salvation, if that is what you choose to do. And God won't plead with you to stay. As much as He loves you, he'll let you go if that's what you choose to do.

Except salvation. Once God regenerates, justifies, forgives, gives eternal life to, saves, makes a child of His, seals with the Spirit, they REMAIN all these.

Yes, He does allow His children to walk away from Him, just like the prodigal did to his dad. But the idiot remained a son throughout.

There are NO verses that teach that salvation or any of the things that accompany salvation can be removed in any way, for any reason.

It is weird why Arminians are so angry with that idea. Hateful, even.

One would think believers would be grateful for God's GRACE, but not so, obviously.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your saying that John in his first letter (chapters 1,2,3) is talking about fellowship.

John said it. I only repeated what he said.

If you read the first three chapters, over and over again, you will notice something much higher.

Jesus was the light of the world.

We are to walk in that light, in fact, we are commanded to walk in that light.

This is about fellowship. I really suggest you actually read the first chapter, over and over, until you finally see the 4x that John mentions "fellowship".

That's NOT a reference to salvation, which is a permanent relationship, but the STATE or CONDITION of that relationship, fellowship.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Again, the command to "remain in Him" CANNOT be about salvation, or that would clearly mean that we are in charge of our salvation.

What we ARE in charge of is the STATE or CONDITION of our relationship with God.

Believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. Believers are commanded to "remain IN Him".

Fellowship is merely when believers gather together.

Your understanding is woefully simplistic. I suggest you do a work search for "fellowship" in the NT. You will see how far you miss the meaning of the word.

Example: consider marriage. In God's economy, this is a permanent relationship. Never mind the stupid divorces all around us.

In that relationship, is the couple ALWAYS in fellowship, or are there times when fellowship is broken because a spouse OFFENDS the other? If you are reasonable and rational, you will easily see the point here.

When a believer sins, that OFFENDS God. And fellowship is LOST or DEAD (hint: prodigal). Confession of that sin restores fellowship with God.

Consider Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Does this represent fellowship or LOSS of fellowship? Not a difficult or trick question.

Love is the true light that shone in the world and the only time it ever did. Was when Jesus walked the earth.

If you do not remain in Jesus you are lost (see the first commandment).

To "remain in Jesus" is about fellowship.

Again, it CANNOT be about salvation, or that means WE are in charge of our salvation? Really? Do you really believe that?

God is the author and perfector of our salvation. Not you, not me, not anyone. Him alone.

You are stepping on His toes. I suggest you walk more carefully.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Disagree with the idea that we have a freewill.

We are a bent, twisted people, driven by our passions and desires, self obsessed, vengeful, hateful, ungrateful, etc.

We never, ever make freewill choices.

Free will is simply the freedom to make choices. And unbelievers CAN and DO respond to the gospel. And NOT the way Calvinists assume. Rom 2:14,15 teaches that the Gentiles (all unbelievers, actually) have a conscience, with which to evaluate information and make decisions. When the gospel is heard and understood, the hearer is faced with a choice: to believe God's promise or not. Period.

Rom 10:10 teaches that man believes from the heart. Not from some calvinistic principles that aren't taught in the Bible.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

This verse refutes all your calvinism regarding free will. This show that the wicked CAN forsake his way. And can "return to the Lord".

We choose what we always would choose every time.

Because we are free to.

Very few choose Jesus and that's because they are not free to choose. They would rather listen to the devil than an evangelist.

That's the truth.

Then you believe that God must force His way on those "few". Nonsense. Total nonsense.

heb 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This verse plainly explains that people who come to God MUST BELIEVE that he exists and rewards "those who diligently seek Him".

This proves that people are able to seek Him. Refutes calvinism.

Acts 17:27 - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

This verse would be meaningless and ridiculous IF people can't seek the Lord.

Another verse that refutes calvinism.

 

[Evmur]

Free will is simply the freedom to make choices. And unbelievers CAN and DO respond to the gospel. And NOT the way Calvinists assume. Rom 2:14,15 teaches that the Gentiles (all unbelievers, actually) have a conscience, with which to evaluate information and make decisions. When the gospel is heard and understood, the hearer is faced with a choice: to believe God's promise or not. Period.

Rom 10:10 teaches that man believes from the heart. Not from some calvinistic principles that aren't taught in the Bible.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

This verse refutes all your calvinism regarding free will. This show that the wicked CAN forsake his way. And can "return to the Lord".


Because we are free to.


Then you believe that God must force His way on those "few". Nonsense. Total nonsense.

heb 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This verse plainly explains that people who come to God MUST BELIEVE that he exists and rewards "those who diligently seek Him".

This proves that people are able to seek Him. Refutes calvinism.

Acts 17:27 - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

This verse would be meaningless and ridiculous IF people can't seek the Lord.

Another verse that refutes calvinism.

People have a will but it is not free, they can make a choice [if God extends to them a choice] but they do not have any power to enact their choice.

Paul says we are slaves of Satan, in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe ... why not simply believe Paul?

Before we were saved Paul says we ALL followed after the prince of the power of the air in his disobedience, everyone of us.

Before we can be saved we must be set FREE from Satan, set FREE from doing his will. When the gospel comes to us in the power of the Holy Spirit [without unction the gospel will not save us] the Holy Spirit sets us FREE.

I go one step further

I say God goes ahead and imparts new life to us THEN we make the decision.

He is God, He is King, He is sovereign, He can do as He pleases. If you think that makes us robots I'm sorry you think that way. I think the devil makes us robots, he says "jump" and we say "how high?"

What that young man who murdered those children in Texas needed to hear from the church was not "you have freewill young man, you can do whatever you please" He needed to hear the cry of alarm "young man you are enslaved by Satan and he will drag you to hell" ... who knows whether or not he might have pierced in his heart and cried out to be saved.

Human freewill is a false doctrine.

 

[Evmur]

When God made us in His image, He gave us the gift of 'free will'. This gift of free will allows each of us to reject God and His love in entirety, any time we choose to do so. It wasn't God's will that Judas despaired and hung himself from a tree, but God respected Judas' free will to do so. God respected the Prodigal Son's free will to leave Him for the things of the world. God never pleaded with the son to stay. God let him go.

And God greatly respect our free will to stay with Him or abandon Him. If any of us ends up in hell, it won't be God's will, instead it will be because that is what we chose.

God gave us a free will to choose for or against Him. When you choose, keep your eyes wide open and your mind clear.
You will be faced with many choices in your life, salvation or damnation, God or Satan, evil or good. When you choose, reach out for what you choose. For sure, you will receive what you choose.

You always have the choice of leaving God any time you want.

Where do you read this stuff? "behold I give unto you the gift of freewill"
what He said was "thou shalt not eat of that tree for in the day you eat of it you will surely die"

 

[FreeGrace2]

People have a will but it is not free, they can make a choice [if God extends to them a choice] but they do not have any power to enact their choice.

You misunderstand what free will is. It is not what calvinists think.

If a person has "no power to enact their choice", then they don't have a choice. I don't have the choice to change the weather, my skin color, or anything else that is out of my ability to choose.

Free will deals with being able to choose options. If an option isn't open to be, I don't have the ability to choose it. As shown above.

Paul says we are slaves of Satan, in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe ... why not simply believe Paul?

I do. Why don't you? He made it crystal clear that believers can choose to whom they serve:

Rom 6:16 - 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

This verse PROVES free will.

Before we were saved Paul says we ALL followed after the prince of the power of the air in his disobedience, everyone of us.

So what? No verse says that man is unable to believe in Christ. In fact, all the teaching is about the need TO believe in order to be saved.

Do you not understand that Paul's answer to the jailer refutes calvinism?? His answer would be totally different if he were a calvinist, or if calvinist was true.

Before we can be saved we must be set FREE from Satan, set FREE from doing his will. When the gospel comes to us in the power of the Holy Spirit [without unction the gospel will not save us] the Holy Spirit sets us FREE.

I go one step further

I say God goes ahead and imparts new life to us THEN we make the decision.

He is God, He is King, He is sovereign, He can do as He pleases. If you think that makes us robots I'm sorry you think that way. I think the devil makes us robots, he says "jump" and we say "how high?"

What that young man who murdered those children in Texas needed to hear from the church was not "you have freewill young man, you can do whatever you please" He needed to hear the cry of alarm "young man you are enslaved by Satan and he will drag you to hell" ... who knows whether or not he might have pierced in his heart and cried out to be saved.

Human freewill is a false doctrine.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where do you read this stuff? "behold I give unto you the gift of freewill"

It is clear in many verses. Rom 6:16, for example. Heb 11:6 for another example.

what He said was "thou shalt not eat of that tree for in the day you eat of it you will surely die"

Do you not realize God gave them a choice. They had NO sin natures. They were created as "good". So explain why they chose the way they did. Totally against God's command.

That is free will. Free will is taught from Genesis through Revelation.

 

[epicnerpmada]

I myself know that we are justified by faith only. I think the divide is in the flesh and spirit. The flesh tries to fathom it (salvation through faith) but cannot. So we end up leaning on our own underatanding.
I recently prayed to accept this or understand it more and God answered my prayers. Everything on the radio and in my bible plans has been about salvation throigh faith. Ive found that its easier to just have faith in it rather than try and umderstand.

 

[Inquisitor]

Free will is simply the freedom to make choices. And unbelievers CAN and DO respond to the gospel. And NOT the way Calvinists assume. Rom 2:14,15 teaches that the Gentiles (all unbelievers, actually) have a conscience, with which to evaluate information and make decisions. When the gospel is heard and understood, the hearer is faced with a choice: to believe God's promise or not. Period.

Rom 10:10 teaches that man believes from the heart. Not from some calvinistic principles that aren't taught in the Bible.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

This verse refutes all your calvinism regarding free will. This show that the wicked CAN forsake his way. And can "return to the Lord".


Because we are free to.


Then you believe that God must force His way on those "few". Nonsense. Total nonsense.

heb 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This verse plainly explains that people who come to God MUST BELIEVE that he exists and rewards "those who diligently seek Him".

This proves that people are able to seek Him. Refutes calvinism.

Acts 17:27 - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

This verse would be meaningless and ridiculous IF people can't seek the Lord.

Another verse that refutes calvinism.

I do not agree with Mr Calvin.

I place God's love above God's sovereignty.

Your will has an inbuilt bias, a corrupt bias in the direction of self satisfaction, self glory.

Everything you do in life is to satisfy your endless desires, to feather your own nest, me, me, me.

Ever wondered why the love of others is absent in human history. Simply because, no one ever freely chooses to serve others. Slavery to the welfare of others, is an imposed state in life, rarely by choice.

In my experience, it seems a person born into a family where one of the parents or siblings is a Christian. Greatly increases the possibility that a person may consider the gospel. For a person born into a non Christian family, the probability of conversion is much lower.

We are shaped by our core nature, our schooling, upbringing, parents, social influences. These influences directly affect the freedom of choice.

This is why in Muslim countries Christian conversion is very low, even remote.

So in the USA, lots of people will cross the line and choose Jesus, the social environment is favorable.

Go to a European country and you will find a sharp drop in the conversion rate per population.

Do people exert a freedom of choice?

I don't think so.

 

[Inquisitor]

I myself know that we are justified by faith only. I think the divide is in the flesh and spirit. The flesh tries to fathom it (salvation through faith) but cannot. So we end up leaning on our own underatanding.
I recently prayed to accept this or understand it more and God answered my prayers. Everything on the radio and in my bible plans has been about salvation throigh faith. Ive found that its easier to just have faith in it rather than try and umderstand.

I could not agree more, church history is a history of man's interpretation of the gospel.

The gospel is a simple narrative and promise.

Yet, we have written a million books on Christianity and rarely managed, to get it right so far.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I could not agree more, church history is a history of man's interpretation of the gospel.

The gospel is a simple narrative and promise.

Yet, we have written a million books on Christianity and rarely managed, to get it right so far.

The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. There's no way to "get it right" without deep and thorough understanding of the OT, especially the Torah.

 

[Goliath]

I strongly disagree here. Salvation is clearly communicated in the Bible. No mystery at all.

Paul's answer to the jailer's question leaves no room for confusion, doubt, etc.

Jailer: what MUST I DO to be saved?
Paul: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

No one is saved by "following the Holy Spirit". The Bible never says anything like that.

People have a will but it is not free, they can make a choice [if God extends to them a choice] but they do not have any power to enact their choice.

Paul says we are slaves of Satan, in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe ... why not simply believe Paul?

Before we were saved Paul says we ALL followed after the prince of the power of the air in his disobedience, everyone of us.

Before we can be saved we must be set FREE from Satan, set FREE from doing his will. When the gospel comes to us in the power of the Holy Spirit [without unction the gospel will not save us] the Holy Spirit sets us FREE.

I go one step further

I say God goes ahead and imparts new life to us THEN we make the decision.

He is God, He is King, He is sovereign, He can do as He pleases. If you think that makes us robots I'm sorry you think that way. I think the devil makes us robots, he says "jump" and we say "how high?"

What that young man who murdered those children in Texas needed to hear from the church was not "you have freewill young man, you can do whatever you please" He needed to hear the cry of alarm "young man you are enslaved by Satan and he will drag you to hell" ... who knows whether or not he might have pierced in his heart and cried out to be saved.

Human freewill is a false doctrine.

I agree with everything you wrote...but I would like to add to the part, about for the Holy Spirit setting us free. It's not the Holy Spirit so much, but the Truth which comes from the Holy Spirit.
How does the Truth set us free?
The spirit tells us the Truth of our condition.
What condition?
Wether we are a slave of sin..or...a slave of righteousness.
If we believe we are saved, though we are a slave of sin, why would we try to be set free?

But the problem with many Christians, why they have not been saved, is they will not accept the Truth about their condition. Not only does the Holy Spirit confirm it in their spirit, but it is written down in the Holy Bible, where Jesus tells us who is slave of sin, and who is not, in (John 8:34). And....which the spirit confirms in our heart.

Now one question, for those of you who believe you are saved and not a slave of sin.
If you are not a slave of sin, why do sin? Does sin please God?

 

[Evmur]

It is clear in many verses. Rom 6:16, for example. Heb 11:6 for another example.


Do you not realize God gave them a choice. They had NO sin natures. They were created as "good". So explain why they chose the way they did. Totally against God's command.

That is free will. Free will is taught from Genesis through Revelation.

Adam and Eve had the choice we do not. We are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. They sold the whole race into bondage.

But they were deceived, the deception was Satan told them "thou wilt not die, you will be like God" able to choose between good and evil.

In other words

you will have freewill.

It is the devil's master stroke, it worked then and it works still today.

 

[Inquisitor]

The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. There's no way to "get it right" without deep and thorough understanding of the OT, especially the Torah.

The Torah (first five books) would be an incomplete portrait of the messiah without the prophets.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Free will is simply the freedom to make choices. And unbelievers CAN and DO respond to the gospel. And NOT the way Calvinists assume. Rom 2:14,15 teaches that the Gentiles (all unbelievers, actually) have a conscience, with which to evaluate information and make decisions. When the gospel is heard and understood, the hearer is faced with a choice: to believe God's promise or not. Period.

I do not agree with Mr Calvin.

That's not the question. Do you agree with my post above? It is true nonetheless.

I place God's love above God's sovereignty.

Actually, all of God's attributes are co-equal.

Your will has an inbuilt bias, a corrupt bias in the direction of self satisfaction, self glory.

Is there evidence for this in the Bible? The fact is that "free will" is merely freedom to choose between available options. That's all.

Of course everyone has a sin nature. Yep. But everyone is free to hear and believe the gospel. Otherwise, much of the Bible isn't true.

Consider Titus 2:11 - The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to everyone.

If man is unable to comprehend or believe the gospel, why would God bother bringing salvation to everyone. I sure don't believe that everyone will be saved, so let's save the charges about universalism. That is heresy.

God brings salvation to everyone because everyone CAN be saved. But, clearly, most won't be.

Everything you do in life is to satisfy your endless desires, to feather your own nest, me, me, me.

This is naive. There are many unbelievers who aren't this way. There are atheists who are moral, not that they are consistent.

Ever wondered why the love of others is absent in human history.

No, I wonder why you think that is true? These kind of blanket statements are not true. Did you not notice in Acts 10 a centurion soldier named Cornelius: "He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly."

And Peter recounted what Cornelius told him about the angel and his message in 11:14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

Future tense. So he wasn't saved at that point. So don't tell me that God had regenerated him already.

Simply because, no one ever freely chooses to serve others.

Your blanket statements are boring.

Slavery to the welfare of others, is an imposed state in life, rarely by choice.

your own words refute you. "rarely" means it DOES happen. You may now throw your blanket away.

In my experience, it seems a person born into a family where one of the parents or siblings is a Christian. Greatly increases the possibility that a person may consider the gospel. For a person born into a non Christian family, the probability of conversion is much lower.

Have you polled this idea?

We are shaped by our core nature, our schooling, upbringing, parents, social influences. These influences directly affect the freedom of choice.

This is why in Muslim countries Christian conversion is very low, even remote.

I've heard from many missionaries in the Middle East who have reported that many many muslims have had visions and dreams about Jesus and are coming to the faith in large numbers.

I think your blanket needs to be thrown out.

Do people exert a freedom of choice?

I don't think so.

OK. Then who chooses the sox you wear? Or the food you eat? Or anything else that REQUIRES a choice????

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It is clear in many verses. Rom 6:16, for example. Heb 11:6 for another example.

Do you not realize God gave them a choice. They had NO sin natures. They were created as "good". So explain why they chose the way they did. Totally against God's command.

That is free will. Free will is taught from Genesis through Revelation.

Adam and Eve had the choice we do not.

Wrong. It's all the same freedom to choose between available options. Why do calvinists have such difficulty comprehending this very simple fact??

We are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. They sold the whole race into bondage.

Are you not aware that even slaves are able to think for themselves??? No one can force another about what to think.

But they were deceived, the deception was Satan told them "thou wilt not die, you will be like God" able to choose between good and evil.

Please read the text again. It was Eve who was deceived, and quite easily. Adam was NOT deceived. He CHOSE the woman over the garden.

In other words

you will have freewill.

It is the devil's master stroke, it worked then and it works still today.

The Bible teaches that man is free to choose, so your opinion here shows that satan has deceived you about it.

 

[Goliath]

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you not realize God gave them a choice. They had NO sin natures. They were created as "good". So explain why they chose the way they did. Totally against God's command.

Hmmm...that's a very good point!!
There was something missing in Adam and Eve. A four letter word spelt...L-O-V-E.
Which is why God wants to change the heart of the sinner. Our Love of God....is a deterrent to sin, because it's much harder to sin against someone you Love. The greater your Love for God...the harder it is for a sinner to sin. And when you Love God more than you love sin...That's what makes you a Slave of Righteousness. And That's when you are Born Again. (Romans 7:1-5)

 

[Runningman]

Hmmm...that's a very good point!!
There was something missing in Adam and Eve. A four letter word spelt...L-O-V-E.
Which is why God wants to change the heart of the sinner. Our Love of God....is a deterrent to sin, because it's much harder to sin against someone you Love. The greater your Love for God...the harder it is for a sinner to sin. And when you Love God more than you love sin...That's what makes you a Slave of Righteousness. And That's when you are Born Again. (Romans 7:1-5)

Well, weren't Adam and Eve made in the image of God?

Genesis 1:27
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 John 4:16
16...God is love...

So Adam and Eve must have had love too?

 

[peldom10]

I myself know that we are justified by faith only. I think the divide is in the flesh and spirit. The flesh tries to fathom it (salvation through faith) but cannot. So we end up leaning on our own underatanding.
I recently prayed to accept this or understand it more and God answered my prayers. Everything on the radio and in my bible plans has been about salvation throigh faith. Ive found that its easier to just have faith in it rather than try and umderstand.

Are you saying ...faith only...as in all encompassing, unconnected to any other righteous act?
If so...then you believe;
repentance is not necessary
Baptism is not necessary
Living a righteous life is not necessary
Faith with works is not required...and the Bible says ..."faith without works is dead.
Etc.