Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[BroTan]

Well that is what Paul taught Bro Tan.

Romans 10:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Paul taught that faith in Jesus saves.

I want to know why you openly reject what Paul was preaching? What you fail to understand is your works do not save you.

Did you hear what Paul said?

No matter how many good works you do, you cannot reconcile yourself to the Father.

Paul taught a gospel of faith in Jesus Christ.

Well....let's continue and let the Bible speaks. Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works.

No matter how many good works you do, you cannot reconcile yourself to the Father.

Paul taught a gospel of faith in Jesus Christ.

Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works. What you fail to know and understand is how faith and works, actually works and go together.

 

[BroTan]

If you had carefully read my post you would have seen I was not speaking of an annual or even weekly Sabbath, but rather of the rest we have in/with Christ. I personally we are to 'now' enter His rest by ceasing from our works and rest in His work...

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
(Heb 4:10)

The rest Paul is talking about refers to the future. Paul is quoting David. I explain to you what that rest means, and when it will take place.

 

[BroTan]

To me sabbath is Jesus
If you have jesus in your heart, you have rest

Not working on Saturday may only mean physical rest, your mind still working

Only when we have jesus we have rest

I hear you, but it's always good to understand what Paul is talking about, because that rest refers to the first resurrection, when Jesus makes his second coming. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

 

[Goliath]

why would the 10 commandments be any different than the rest of the law?

in Romans 6-8 it is explained that we are set free from the law by this mechanism: we have died with Christ. the rationale is that a dead man is no longer under any of the law, because he is dead. what would make the decalogue have power over the dead but none of the rest of the law?
and in case we don't think Paul includes the 10 commandments under the term "the law" -- in Romans 7:7-8 Paul describes how "the law" gave him knowledge of sin, and picks one of the 10 commandments as an example of what he is talking about. therefore the 10 commandments are part of "the law"
nowhere in the NT does anyone speak of "the law" as being anything other than all of the law - 10 commandments included.

Christ tells us that the whole basis of the law, upon which all of it rests, is two commands one found in Deuteronomy 6 and the other Leviticus 19 -- both of these would be part of the 'works of the law of Moses' according to your terminology. neither are part of the 10 commandments.
instead, the 10 commandments are extrapolated from the basis of the law: love the LORD, love your neighbor. so if those 'works of the law of Moses' were done away with, then the 10 commandments have no basis anymore either -- because Christ calls them part of "the law" and says all of the law, including the decalogue, rests on those two.

furthermore the 10 commandments are explicitly called the covenant in Deuteronomy 4:13 -- and we know that the old covenant has passed away by the ordaining of the new covenant ((John 13, Hebrews 8 particularly verse 13 in very plain language)).

nowhere in the NT do we ever see any of the apostles commanding that people keep sabbath. the only thing even related to such a command is in Colossians 2 where we are told not to let anyone judge us over sabbath, and in Romans 14 where we are told again not to judge one another over sabbath but that each person should be persuaded in their own mind. these things are incompatible with the idea that sabbath-keeping was commanded to believers in the early church or seen in any way as a requirement. it is conspicuously absent from the council in Acts 15 when it was being decided what instructions to give Gentiles who had come to faith. moreover there is no mention anywhere in the NT of being 'still under the 10 but not the rest' whenever our relationship to the law is being discussed.

where do you get the idea Christians are under the 10 commandments but no other part of the law?
seems to me the Biblical narrative is that we are either under all of the law or we are simply not under the law at all.

Good question...
The Ten Commandments are the Laws of God...the 600 God gave Moses are the Laws of Moses.
Proof?
Paul says Abraham was not under the Law. when we know Abraham was under the Law.
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
(Genesis 26:4-5)

What Laws did Abraham keep?

 

[Jackson123]

Good question...
The Ten Commandments are the Laws of God...the 600 God gave Moses are the Laws of Moses.
Proof?
Paul says Abraham was not under the Law. when we know Abraham was under the Law.
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
(Genesis 26:4-5)

What Laws did Abraham keep?

To my knowledge Moses don't have the authority to make the law, we call it law of Moses but all us from God

 

[Jackson123]

I hear you, but it's always good to understand what Paul is talking about, because that rest refers to the first resurrection, when Jesus makes his second coming. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

The first resurrection is Sunday isn't it?

 

[posthuman]

Good question...
The Ten Commandments are the Laws of God...the 600 God gave Moses are the Laws of Moses.
Proof?
Paul says Abraham was not under the Law. when we know Abraham was under the Law.
And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
(Genesis 26:4-5)

What Laws did Abraham keep?

that could be the Noahide laws, or it could be specific commandments God gave Abraham such as 'go here' or 'go there' and circumcision.
since the Bible indisputably places the 10 commandments as part of 'the law' there is no reason to presume that Abraham was under 'the law' when scripture specifically tells us he was not.

but everything Moses commanded, he wrote, 'thus saith the LORD' -- nothing in Moses' law originates with Moses. all those things are equally God's commandments.

to me i still have seen no reason to imagine that 'the law' is separated into required and unrequired parts. everything in the Bible talks about 'the law' as one whole entity. James & Christ, in two witnesses, say breaking any part of it makes a person guilty of all - even the least commandment. Paul leaves no question as to whether we are under it nor does he leave any doubt as to whether the 10 commandments are included as part of it.

i know that this human idea of breaking the Mosaic covenant law into parts that remain binding and parts that don't goes all the way back at least to Augustine, but even Augustine at the same time saw sabbath as a shadow revealed in the person of Christ ((rightly so, per Colossians & Hebrews & Romans)) and neither observed it nor commanded its observance.

am i arguing against keeping sabbath?
no.
i will judge no one for keeping it and judge no one for not keeping it.

i am confirming the commandment given to us, "let no one judge you according to a sabbath" -- and the salvation we have received, in that, having died to the law we are free to belong to a new husband: Christ. i am confirming what is written in Galatians, that having received the Spirit through faith, we are not perfected then through the flesh. if the physical ceremony of circumcision is greater than ceremonial physical sabbath observance ((per John 7:23)) and circumcision in the flesh avails nothing - and can even be heresy if we think it must be added to faith ((per Galatians)) - then we have a very clear narrative in scripture about how these things should be understood, and to me there is a very clear disconnect between "we are no longer under the law" and "we will lose our salvation if we don't keep sabbath"

 

[posthuman]

The first resurrection is Sunday isn't it?

yes, Firstfruits

 

[Phoneman-777]

The ten commandments the Catholic proclaim is very close to the ten commandments you teach. You both preach the law for salvation anyway. The Catholics assign a mortal sin to missing the Sunday service. You folk honor the day before and likewise say, don't break the Sabbath. The soul that sins shall die.

You both declare Jesus plus the law (or church law) for salvation.

Paul preaches something different, i.e., saved by grace through faith and that is a gift from God.

Huge difference between these two versions of the good news.

One preaches faith and the other preaches the Sabbath, hmmmm, I wonder who is right?

I don't think you fully understand things, friend.

1) I don't preach salvation by works, I preach good works are the EVIDENCE of having received salvation and the absence of good works are the evidence it has not yet been received.,

2) Catholicism doesn't teach salvation is limited by obedience to their version of the Ten Commandments - they teach the Father was so pleased with how obedient Jesus was that He arbitrarily decided to grant salvation to mankind ***without regard, consideration, or requirement of blood atonement whatsoever*** and set up the Catholic priesthood as the conduit through which this salvation would be disseminated.

Y'know what? "Protestants' who subscribe to Jesuit Futurism have a hard time letting that sink in, so I'm gonna repeat it: ***without regard, consideration, or requirement of blood atonement whatsoever***".

That's why Catholic priests have said and believe even well into this our 21st century that when they hear this stanza of "How Great Thou Art":

"And when I think that God, His Son not sparing​

Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in​

That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing​

He bled and died to take away my sin"​

​

"I scarce can take it in either, for the shed blood of Jesus has nothing to do with the sinner obtaining salvation". They teach salavtion is predicated on submission to the Pope in total.


So, there's no comparison with what Protestantism and Catholicism believe

 

[Phoneman-777]

According to law pushers, Jesus broke the Sabbath.

According to the Bible, Jesus kept the Sabbath and we are to follow His example of obedience, but the OSAS crowd choose to follow the example of Satan's rebellion.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You must have misunderstood. I said the "Works" of the Law of Moses, those 600 plus... were done away with, not the Ten Commandments..they were carried over and part of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

And again...I believe the Sabbath Law is still in effect...just not in the way you believe it's kept.

Ahh, thanks for clarifying. Yes, the Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross, but the Ten Commandments stand for eternity

 

[crossnote]

The rest Paul is talking about refers to the future. Paul is quoting David. I explain to you what that rest means, and when it will take place.

Funny thing, why wait? I have found that rest in Him now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is the verse that fruit is the out come of remain in Him

I agreed with this.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6

But the verse isn't about salvation, but rather, about fellowship with the Lord.

Believers who are out of fellowship, whether by grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, will NOT bear fruit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In general eternal reward is salvation

Rather, specifically, you are wrong. Eternal reward is EARNED but the gift of eternal life is FREE.

You are showing how little of the Bible you are familiar with. And only those who really understand biblical salvation will be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You're just being stubborn now. The FACT that there is a command to "remain IN Him" proves that bearing fruit isn't automatic or guaranteed.

Do you need to be commanded to breathe? Or is your breathing automatic?

Remain in Him is command, bearing fruit is outcome

Again and again, I agree.

If there is command to produce the fruit, can you do it?

Only by those who are IN fellowship with the Lord and are FILLED with the Spirit. Do you understand the difference here, and HOW to be IN fellowship and be FILLED with the Spirit?

Can sinner produce good fruit?

Your question is too vague. Is the sinner here a believer or not?

All we can do is let Jesus in He in us will do produce the fruit we bear it

Where do you get the idea that you "let" Jesus in? Rev 3:20 is about fellowship, not salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to the Bible, Jesus kept the Sabbath and we are to follow His example of obedience, but the OSAS crowd choose to follow the example of Satan's rebellion.

Jesus leads the "OSAS crowd" because He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

Why do you reject what Jesus taught and blaspheme His teaching?

OSAS comes from Jesus, not Satan's rebellion. You have been quite deceived.

 

[Magenta]

You are showing how little of the Bible you are familiar with. And only those who really understand biblical salvation will be saved.

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You
have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

 

[peldom10]

Well....let's continue and let the Bible speaks. Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works.


Jesus says in (Matt. 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. You are supposed to glorify your Father in heaven, and let your light shine before men. And how do you do that? By having good works. Sometimes as a Christian you don’t have to say a word, people will see your works. What you fail to know and understand is how faith and works, actually works and go together.

Excellent summary.

We can achieve more effective witness by;
our appearance
where we are seen
our actions
under what environment we are in
when,
than most all verbal efforts.

The Bible refers to it as ...our shining light.

 

[Jackson123]

I agreed with this.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6

But the verse isn't about salvation, but rather, about fellowship with the Lord.

Believers who are out of fellowship, whether by grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, will NOT bear fruit.

To be save you have to have fellowship with him

Do you believe salvation without fellowship in Him? Can you save yourself?

That why Jesus say no fruit cut of trown into fire or hell

 

[Jackson123]

Rather, specifically, you are wrong. Eternal reward is EARNED but the gift of eternal life is FREE.

You are showing how little of the Bible you are familiar with. And only those who really understand biblical salvation will be saved.

To me to be save must let Jesus in and Jesus in us produce fruit, no fruit no salvation