Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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friend, that is no small argument you have. it is a very important one. let me try to reply, knowing that my reply is weak and not comprehensively convincing -- what i hope is only that you will consider it plausible:
servile doesn't strictly mean "laborious"
the word in question is Strong's 5656, which is an adjectival derivation of the noun Strong's 5647 that means 'work of any kind'
the question we have to look at is this:
for the feast of atonement, it is called a sabbath rest - both the word rest and the word sabbath describe it, Leviticus 16:31. and it is said do no work ((5647))
for every other feast, when a holy convocation is called - not for Pascha but for Unleavened Bread, twice, it is said do no 'servile' work, where 'servile' derives from 'work of any kind' and 'work' is Strong's 4399 - primarily meaning one's job or occupation.
why is only Atonement called a 'sabbath/seventh' and the specific terminology left out of all the other feats requiring cessation of work? what is different, if anything is different?
my contention here is that sabbath literally is seventh, so it is not surprising that the word isn't used for the feasts because they do not fall on sevenths. it is surprising that Yom Kippur is specifically called a seventh of rest, and that remains to be explained
but on the feasts which require days upon no work is to be done, in the Talmud this is regarded as equivalent to a 'sabbath rest' -- the word 'sabbath' had taken on a meaning beyond simply the ordinal 'seventh' so that it also meant 'rest'.
so it can be explained why Matthew Mark & Luke regard the day of the crucifixion as a day of preparation for sabbath, if the next day is the first day of Unleavened Bread -- which it undoubtedly is, that day being Pascha.
and John 19:14 is more specific, calling it the day of preparation of the Pascha. now, John's Greek is more simple than the other gospels, but his theology more complex - he knows full well that Pascha is both a single day and used as a term to include both the day of Passover + the days of unleavened bread. when he says, "the preparation day of Pascha" we have to ask therefore whether he means preparation for the seder? in which case we're faced with 'did Christ eat Passover on the wrong day??' or whether John kens that Pascha, as an 8-day festival, always includes a preparation day, because leaven has to be removed from every Jewish house before the first 'no servile work' day of Unleavened Bread, and all work that is not allowed in that day must be done ((prepared)) the day before. this is always a part of the Paschal 8 days, so it makes sense as the 'preparation day of the Pascha'
to know for sure we have to know how the Jews describe it, because John is a Jew and describes it as a Jew would --
well guess what, look at any Jewish resource, and they will invariably call the rest periods of all the feasts sabbaths, and will call the day before Unleavened Bread begins a preparation day, in the same way they will call any ordinary friday the same.
i know that there is a little division over 'high sabbath' -- but the majority thinking of Jews is that a 'rest' commanded on a feast day when it happens to occur on a seventh ((sabbath)) day is called a "double sabbath" -- while the rest-from-occupational-work-days proscribed in the law are commonly called "high sabbaths" to this day, regardless of whether Leviticus uses the word "seventh" or not to describe them.
so my position briefly is that "high sabbath" refers to a feast day that requires cessation of work, and the day before it is necessarily a preparation day, just like that of Exodus 16 -- we can raise semantic objections, but this is the customary way Jews have spoken of them dating back before the time of Christ. so when we see the gospel authors referring to a sabbath in the midst of the Paschal week, we have to take pause and consider which sabbath they mean: there are 3 days of rest in the Paschal feast. only one of them is the weekly seventh day, and a Jew will call them all "sabbath"
servile doesn't strictly mean "laborious"
the word in question is Strong's 5656, which is an adjectival derivation of the noun Strong's 5647 that means 'work of any kind'
the question we have to look at is this:
for the feast of atonement, it is called a sabbath rest - both the word rest and the word sabbath describe it, Leviticus 16:31. and it is said do no work ((5647))
for every other feast, when a holy convocation is called - not for Pascha but for Unleavened Bread, twice, it is said do no 'servile' work, where 'servile' derives from 'work of any kind' and 'work' is Strong's 4399 - primarily meaning one's job or occupation.
why is only Atonement called a 'sabbath/seventh' and the specific terminology left out of all the other feats requiring cessation of work? what is different, if anything is different?
my contention here is that sabbath literally is seventh, so it is not surprising that the word isn't used for the feasts because they do not fall on sevenths. it is surprising that Yom Kippur is specifically called a seventh of rest, and that remains to be explained
but on the feasts which require days upon no work is to be done, in the Talmud this is regarded as equivalent to a 'sabbath rest' -- the word 'sabbath' had taken on a meaning beyond simply the ordinal 'seventh' so that it also meant 'rest'.
so it can be explained why Matthew Mark & Luke regard the day of the crucifixion as a day of preparation for sabbath, if the next day is the first day of Unleavened Bread -- which it undoubtedly is, that day being Pascha.
and John 19:14 is more specific, calling it the day of preparation of the Pascha. now, John's Greek is more simple than the other gospels, but his theology more complex - he knows full well that Pascha is both a single day and used as a term to include both the day of Passover + the days of unleavened bread. when he says, "the preparation day of Pascha" we have to ask therefore whether he means preparation for the seder? in which case we're faced with 'did Christ eat Passover on the wrong day??' or whether John kens that Pascha, as an 8-day festival, always includes a preparation day, because leaven has to be removed from every Jewish house before the first 'no servile work' day of Unleavened Bread, and all work that is not allowed in that day must be done ((prepared)) the day before. this is always a part of the Paschal 8 days, so it makes sense as the 'preparation day of the Pascha'
to know for sure we have to know how the Jews describe it, because John is a Jew and describes it as a Jew would --
well guess what, look at any Jewish resource, and they will invariably call the rest periods of all the feasts sabbaths, and will call the day before Unleavened Bread begins a preparation day, in the same way they will call any ordinary friday the same.
i know that there is a little division over 'high sabbath' -- but the majority thinking of Jews is that a 'rest' commanded on a feast day when it happens to occur on a seventh ((sabbath)) day is called a "double sabbath" -- while the rest-from-occupational-work-days proscribed in the law are commonly called "high sabbaths" to this day, regardless of whether Leviticus uses the word "seventh" or not to describe them.
so my position briefly is that "high sabbath" refers to a feast day that requires cessation of work, and the day before it is necessarily a preparation day, just like that of Exodus 16 -- we can raise semantic objections, but this is the customary way Jews have spoken of them dating back before the time of Christ. so when we see the gospel authors referring to a sabbath in the midst of the Paschal week, we have to take pause and consider which sabbath they mean: there are 3 days of rest in the Paschal feast. only one of them is the weekly seventh day, and a Jew will call them all "sabbath"
IOW -- more briefly -- what we have to figure out is whether to a Jew "high sabbath" means a weekly sabbath fell concurrent with a feast cease-from-ordinary-work day, or whether "high sabbath" to a Jew means any of the cease-from-ordinary-work days which are associated with a feast rather than from one of the 'ordinary' seventh days.
because we don't see "high sabbath" in the OT either, but we see it in the NT.
so what do the Jewish authors of the gospels mean by that phrase?
as i said IMO to answer that we have to look at Jewish thought, and Jewish thought leads me to the conclusion it means a feast-day upon which it is commanded to cease certain works. i.e. the 1st & 7th days of Unleavened Bread.
because we don't see "high sabbath" in the OT either, but we see it in the NT.
so what do the Jewish authors of the gospels mean by that phrase?
as i said IMO to answer that we have to look at Jewish thought, and Jewish thought leads me to the conclusion it means a feast-day upon which it is commanded to cease certain works. i.e. the 1st & 7th days of Unleavened Bread.
FreeGrace2 said:
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Jesus was clear. He gives peopel eternal life when they become believers and they shall never perish.
And you don't believe any of that.
So OBVIOUSLY you don't understand matat 24:13. Even though many have explained the verse to you.
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Jesus was clear. He gives peopel eternal life when they become believers and they shall never perish.
And you don't believe any of that.
So OBVIOUSLY you don't understand matat 24:13. Even though many have explained the verse to you.
FreeGrace2 said:
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Your comments prove that you have rejected John 5:24 and 10:28.
Have you clipped those verses out of your Bible? They sure aren't in your mind.
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Your comments prove that you have rejected John 5:24 and 10:28.
Have you clipped those verses out of your Bible? They sure aren't in your mind.
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Speaking through you brother...not at you.
But how do we open the eyes of our Christian family?
How do we get them back to the basics, so they can be saved?
I've had better success with atheists, than I have with the many, who follow a false doctrine. I do not convince the atheist, there is a God, with mere words.
No, I get them to confess their sins, and the Holy Spirit, when he convicts them of sin.... proves my words.
Thats what's missing in the church...PROOF!! Everyone just believes, they don't need any proof. Their proof is found somewhere in the written word, written by God or in some foolish commentary, where men are able to twist Gods word to fit their lives. Now don't get me wrong, I love reading the bible, but I would never put it before the Holy Spirit.
As children, Why would we go to school, if all we needed were books?
This is why we need teachers, teachers who teach us....what are in those books. If they didn't, we would have many different teachings for many of the same subjects, just like we have in the "Church".
The Bible is not a book of natural things, but a book on spiritual things. And to understand it, you will need a spiritual teacher. Many waste this gift and will remain lost until they learn from the Holy Spirit.
Like Grace...Grace is more than a word, Grace is a life with God, a life which is far beyond human expectations. I do not fear life, because I know my Heavenly Father is always with me. I do not need to imagine it, for I experience it!! Abraham had great faith in those things he couldn't see, But how did he come to have such great faith? It was because of his previous experiences with God, knowing that God was with him, that's what created that faith.
I wish folks could just experience, just a single day, of the peace and joy God has brought into my life.
And it's there for everyone, everyone who pleases God. You see my friends...That's what gets you saved..by Pleasing God! I really don't expect you all to believe me, but at least give the Holy Spirit a chance to prove it.
How?
To begin with, get down on your knees and confess your sins before God. God will forgive your sins. This is not something left to imagination, like your doctrines, but it is something you will see for yourselves. Jesus gave his life for this very reason...Jesus died so you can walk in the light of God and experience Gods light. Which was an impossibility without his sacrifice.
What is that experience?
The light of God will illuminate the evil in your life. The evil you do, and the evil all around you. All of a sudden, you will not be able to watch a favorite movie because of it's evil content, an evil you didn't see before you were in Gods light. You will feel guilt, guilt over the evil you do, guilt which was not there before you were in the light.
Now what?
When you do fall to temptation...confess those sins.... so you can remain in Gods light. Let the spirit guide you. You will not know where he is taking you, but it's a great journey.... and when you get there..Then you will know.
But how do we open the eyes of our Christian family?
How do we get them back to the basics, so they can be saved?
I've had better success with atheists, than I have with the many, who follow a false doctrine. I do not convince the atheist, there is a God, with mere words.
No, I get them to confess their sins, and the Holy Spirit, when he convicts them of sin.... proves my words.
Thats what's missing in the church...PROOF!! Everyone just believes, they don't need any proof. Their proof is found somewhere in the written word, written by God or in some foolish commentary, where men are able to twist Gods word to fit their lives. Now don't get me wrong, I love reading the bible, but I would never put it before the Holy Spirit.
As children, Why would we go to school, if all we needed were books?
This is why we need teachers, teachers who teach us....what are in those books. If they didn't, we would have many different teachings for many of the same subjects, just like we have in the "Church".
The Bible is not a book of natural things, but a book on spiritual things. And to understand it, you will need a spiritual teacher. Many waste this gift and will remain lost until they learn from the Holy Spirit.
Like Grace...Grace is more than a word, Grace is a life with God, a life which is far beyond human expectations. I do not fear life, because I know my Heavenly Father is always with me. I do not need to imagine it, for I experience it!! Abraham had great faith in those things he couldn't see, But how did he come to have such great faith? It was because of his previous experiences with God, knowing that God was with him, that's what created that faith.
I wish folks could just experience, just a single day, of the peace and joy God has brought into my life.
And it's there for everyone, everyone who pleases God. You see my friends...That's what gets you saved..by Pleasing God! I really don't expect you all to believe me, but at least give the Holy Spirit a chance to prove it.
How?
To begin with, get down on your knees and confess your sins before God. God will forgive your sins. This is not something left to imagination, like your doctrines, but it is something you will see for yourselves. Jesus gave his life for this very reason...Jesus died so you can walk in the light of God and experience Gods light. Which was an impossibility without his sacrifice.
What is that experience?
The light of God will illuminate the evil in your life. The evil you do, and the evil all around you. All of a sudden, you will not be able to watch a favorite movie because of it's evil content, an evil you didn't see before you were in Gods light. You will feel guilt, guilt over the evil you do, guilt which was not there before you were in the light.
Now what?
When you do fall to temptation...confess those sins.... so you can remain in Gods light. Let the spirit guide you. You will not know where he is taking you, but it's a great journey.... and when you get there..Then you will know.
This is post #1,967
FreeGrace2 said:
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Jackson123 said:
It tell you don't believe what Jesus tought
Jesus tought He that endure to the end will be save
I responded:
Your comments prove that you have rejected John 5:24 and 10:28.
Have you clipped those verses out of your Bible? They sure aren't in your mind.
And J123 gave the post a "thumbs UP"!!!! I guess he approved of my comments, or admits neither verse is in his mind, or that he actually has cut those verses out of his Bible.
Well, at least that's honesty.
FreeGrace2 said:
This kind of response proves that you DON'T believe what Jesus taught.
Jackson123 said:
It tell you don't believe what Jesus tought
Jesus tought He that endure to the end will be save
I responded:
Your comments prove that you have rejected John 5:24 and 10:28.
Have you clipped those verses out of your Bible? They sure aren't in your mind.
And J123 gave the post a "thumbs UP"!!!! I guess he approved of my comments, or admits neither verse is in his mind, or that he actually has cut those verses out of his Bible.
Well, at least that's honesty.
In Christian Muslim debat in Indonesian Muslim accused us as encourage killing
Only need faith save and you can do what ever you want, like killing rob the bank still go to heaven
You only need to have faith for a second
What kind of religion is this
I always counter them that they don't know what is the definition of faith
If you think faith is only believe Jesus as God without the need to believe His teaching than you are correct
It is encourage killing
Faith is trust not only Jesus as God, also believe His teaching
And His teaching is to love not to kill
Faith alone but wrong definition of faith will danger
Only need faith save and you can do what ever you want, like killing rob the bank still go to heaven
You only need to have faith for a second
What kind of religion is this
I always counter them that they don't know what is the definition of faith
If you think faith is only believe Jesus as God without the need to believe His teaching than you are correct
It is encourage killing
Faith is trust not only Jesus as God, also believe His teaching
And His teaching is to love not to kill
Faith alone but wrong definition of faith will danger
It's similar to today.
Folk know that they should not drink too much or take drugs. They know they should eat a healthy diet. They also know they should exercise regularly. The medical evidence is overwhelming. So what does ninety percent of the population do?
They refuse to eat healthy, refuse to exercise, they drink too much and take drugs. People cannot follow the truth, they never could.
I am still trying to work out how we executed our creator.
Folk know that they should not drink too much or take drugs. They know they should eat a healthy diet. They also know they should exercise regularly. The medical evidence is overwhelming. So what does ninety percent of the population do?
They refuse to eat healthy, refuse to exercise, they drink too much and take drugs. People cannot follow the truth, they never could.
I am still trying to work out how we executed our creator.
There are three ancient church traditions, the Roman, the Corinthian, and the Laodicean. All three of these first century churches are still with us today. They may practice their Sunday service different to each other, different church rules. Yet these three first century churches all follow the same tradition. Jesus crucified and buried Friday, in the tomb Saturday, rose Sunday.
How is that even possible to have three separate church traditions that are identical, given those three days?
When these three churches are different to one another in other more profound ways.
Four of the gospels have the weekly Sabbath but John's gospel calls that weekly Sabbath, a great Sabbath.
Why you ask is it a great Sabbath?
Because the first day of Unleavened Bread occurred on that same weekly Sabbath day.
Jesus rose on the third day and definitely not after the third day (1 Corinthians 15).
You must stop claiming that Jesus rose after the third day because that is heresy.
How is that even possible to have three separate church traditions that are identical, given those three days?
When these three churches are different to one another in other more profound ways.
Four of the gospels have the weekly Sabbath but John's gospel calls that weekly Sabbath, a great Sabbath.
Why you ask is it a great Sabbath?
Because the first day of Unleavened Bread occurred on that same weekly Sabbath day.
Jesus rose on the third day and definitely not after the third day (1 Corinthians 15).
You must stop claiming that Jesus rose after the third day because that is heresy.
3 of the gospels say Sunday ✞
1 of the gospels say the end of sabbath ✞
People don't usually know about night/day cycles from the bible, it isn't really taught. If anyone is curious, it looks like this:
At the end of sabbath (✞) is when they went to check the tomb and found Him shortly after (✞).
So let's say for simplicity's sake, Jesus was killed Wednesday at 6pm (*) then 3 days in the tomb would give a resurrection time of 6pm Saturday (the end of sabbath and start of Sunday night).
They cannot prove that Jesus resurrected on Sunday, only God and maybe some angels were there. My belief is that He completed 3 full 24 hour periods to fulfill prophecy. Would it matter if it was a few minutes longer or shorter? I don't personally think so but I believe from a legalistic perspective it would probably matter.
Does this justify changing God's commandment? No. We were told that some people esteem all days the same, and some people remember the sabbath. God did not change the sabbath to Sunday. God did not tell you to that your arbitrary day off is the sabbath. God did not tell you to remember any day you want to. If you don't want to keep the sabbath don't try and justify Sunday worship with mental gymnastics.
1 of the gospels say the end of sabbath ✞
People don't usually know about night/day cycles from the bible, it isn't really taught. If anyone is curious, it looks like this:
✞Night/Day - Night/Day - Night/Day - Night/Day* - Night/Day¹ - Night/Day² - Night/Day³✞
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Sabbath
A 'day' is a 12~hour period of dark, and 12~hour period of light. The night comes first (darkness before the light). "The evening and the morning were the first day". Days start at each sunset (changes slightly daily).Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Sabbath
At the end of sabbath (✞) is when they went to check the tomb and found Him shortly after (✞).
So let's say for simplicity's sake, Jesus was killed Wednesday at 6pm (*) then 3 days in the tomb would give a resurrection time of 6pm Saturday (the end of sabbath and start of Sunday night).
They cannot prove that Jesus resurrected on Sunday, only God and maybe some angels were there. My belief is that He completed 3 full 24 hour periods to fulfill prophecy. Would it matter if it was a few minutes longer or shorter? I don't personally think so but I believe from a legalistic perspective it would probably matter.
Does this justify changing God's commandment? No. We were told that some people esteem all days the same, and some people remember the sabbath. God did not change the sabbath to Sunday. God did not tell you to that your arbitrary day off is the sabbath. God did not tell you to remember any day you want to. If you don't want to keep the sabbath don't try and justify Sunday worship with mental gymnastics.
Jesus cannot rise after the third day and that is a heresy.
Jesus rose on the third day as Paul states.
Your basing your opinion not on what the gospels state. Your opinion is based on a verse in Mathew's gospel, a figure of speech.
The tradition of three separate churches is worthless.
The opinion of the Biblical scholars is worthless in your opinion.
Once again, Jesus did not rise after that third day. No matter how much you ramble on, your simply wrong.
Jesus rose on the third day as Paul states.
Your basing your opinion not on what the gospels state. Your opinion is based on a verse in Mathew's gospel, a figure of speech.
The tradition of three separate churches is worthless.
The opinion of the Biblical scholars is worthless in your opinion.
Once again, Jesus did not rise after that third day. No matter how much you ramble on, your simply wrong.
We meet in Church to celebrate the risen Christ. We don't meet to honor a Jewish law concerning what day we should have a rest.
Christians were never under the law, Christians are under grace.
I don't have to justify Sunday worship because I do not adhere to the law of Moses.
You threw 99.9% of the law in the dust bin but you are trying to hold on to, just one page from the law.
You need to make a clean break and fall completely under the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is intolerable that you claim Jesus did not rise on that third day. You cannot occupy that space. Your basing your entire understanding of the death and resurrection, on one verse in Matthew. That is ridiculous. You are generating a faction, a division in Christianity. You will pay the price for that.
Christians were never under the law, Christians are under grace.
I don't have to justify Sunday worship because I do not adhere to the law of Moses.
You threw 99.9% of the law in the dust bin but you are trying to hold on to, just one page from the law.
You need to make a clean break and fall completely under the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is intolerable that you claim Jesus did not rise on that third day. You cannot occupy that space. Your basing your entire understanding of the death and resurrection, on one verse in Matthew. That is ridiculous. You are generating a faction, a division in Christianity. You will pay the price for that.
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Jesus rose on the third day, here are the verses. Mark actually states Jesus rose on Sunday.
Mark 16:9
Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week (Sunday), He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
The rest of these verses states Jesus rose on the third day. Which of course is Sunday as Christian tradition states.
1 Corinthians 15:4
And that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Matthew 16:21
From that time Jesus began to point out to His disciples that it was necessary for Him to go to Jerusalem and to suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and to be raised up on the third day.
Matthew 17:23
And they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day. And they were deeply grieved.
Matthew 20:19
And they will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and flog and crucify, and on the third day He will be raised up.
Luke 9:22
The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised on the third day.
Luke 13:32
And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, Behold, I am casting out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I reach My goal."
Luke 18:33
And after they have flogged Him, they will kill Him; and on the third day He will rise.”
Luke 24:7
Saying that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise from the dead.”
Luke 24:46
And He said to them, “So it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.
Mark 16:9
Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week (Sunday), He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
The rest of these verses states Jesus rose on the third day. Which of course is Sunday as Christian tradition states.
1 Corinthians 15:4
And that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Matthew 16:21
From that time Jesus began to point out to His disciples that it was necessary for Him to go to Jerusalem and to suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and to be raised up on the third day.
Matthew 17:23
And they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day. And they were deeply grieved.
Matthew 20:19
And they will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and flog and crucify, and on the third day He will be raised up.
Luke 9:22
The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised on the third day.
Luke 13:32
And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, Behold, I am casting out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I reach My goal."
Luke 18:33
And after they have flogged Him, they will kill Him; and on the third day He will rise.”
Luke 24:7
Saying that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise from the dead.”
Luke 24:46
And He said to them, “So it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.
The law isn't Jewish. The commandments aren't the law. The commandments aren't Jewish. Christ does not change the sabbath. The sabbath will last until the end of time, it will not be taken away, or changed, or diminished, or cursed. It is a holy day that was in God's heart before creation and will remain a holy day.
I literally said that Jesus spent 3x24hour period in the grave and you type multiple posts telling me I'm wrong. You didn't even read my post properly you just want to copy dozens of bible verses.
I literally told you that 1 of the gospels says at the end of the sabbath and then you post the verse confirming what I said... to prove me wrong?
I literally said that Jesus spent 3x24hour period in the grave and you type multiple posts telling me I'm wrong. You didn't even read my post properly you just want to copy dozens of bible verses.
I literally told you that 1 of the gospels says at the end of the sabbath and then you post the verse confirming what I said... to prove me wrong?