Resurrection

[garee]

Ok, that makes sense since Noose is on my ignore list. Quite true that reanimation and reincarnation are not the same thing.

This is for Noose, since I know that you have a good understanding of scripture.

At the time of the resurrection God will reanimate the bodies of the dead in Christ, being raised immortal and glorified. Where reincarnation is a Hindu pagan belief of people going through life after life, sometimes even coming back as an animal. However, scripture states that man is once to die then comes the judgment.

LOL I am over here. The short old guy.

Is it just those who have a good understanding? Your kind of understanding? When God corrupted the whole first creation he did more than a half a job or more than meets the eye. .

Where are we informed that it did include his spirit as in dying you will die? The whole body soul and mind was found guilty . In so much that you will surely die .The same wrath of God being revealed from heavenly daily. .

In one sense Hollywood takes the unseen things and turns them into lively drama.. the lust of the eye. .as amusement (not think) Taking those dead in their trespasses and sins and making them in the living dead. dead men walking. We should be careful on how we can hear God. Like the Lone Ranger and Tonto a peace mission. Not a salvation issue..

Was the judgment in respect to the flesh alone? Like for instance. . Flesh and blood you will surely die. Spirit. . you will suffer forever because I am a merciless God. . And like the Jehovah witnesses they are hoping he will change it. .Like God can reverse the curse and make it incorruptible flesh ? Catholics try to make it about the blood what the eyes see... and not the spirit as the essence of life .

It would seem to be the thing to do to those who literalize the spiritual understanding,. Jesus said his flesh profits for nothing. It was kept from corrupting three days to show us it did not profit because it could not. . .that's the judgment that will be tossed in the lake of fire is the letter of the law. It (you shall surely die) will not rise to condemn any other new creation . Its smoke as at witness the substance was consumed will rise forever as a witness against it.

 

[PERFECTION]

It is an event -- a supernatural event which is entirely by the power of God and Christ.

Even though it is in Paul's epistles, we must believe that the Holy Spirit revealed it to the prophets and apostles. Paul has given us the most detail, but the Lord spoke of both the resurrections (the "first resurrection" for the just and "second resurrection" the unjust).

The resurrection of the saints is in fact the Resurrection/Rapture and the primary Bible passages are 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.

For believers, unlike the popular theories, it is not a mega, visible event that happens in a day but a continuous process stretching all the way from 1st century to the end of age. Believers actually don't die (sleep) but in a twinkle of an eye, transition into life eternal and indwell other believers (through the mind of Christ).

This is heavily allegorized in the scripture and it is further hidden in Revelation when the living believers are described as the temple of God or new Jerusalem, full with dimensions (number of people that will finally make the temple).

1 Cor 15:29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?

So was Jesus speaking to legitimatize this tradition of baptism of the dead or was he using it as an example to show them their flawed thinking? This is the one and only place in the scripture such a tradition is mentioned furthermore I cannot recall of any such tradition being taught period. Consider this, baptism is given to us a act on our part, that we join in Christ in His death burial and resurrection. The fact that Jesus had at this point had not achieved this process makes you wonder just where did this tradition originate.

 

[stonesoffire]

Question: The resurrection as taught by Paul, is it an event or is it a process ?

An event with Jesus raised from death, along with saints when the skies darkened if my memory is correct.

But resurrection life is a process in us that by faith we can walk in. It took way too many years for me to see this but the power of this life never diminishes. Few partake.

 

[bluto]

The question still remains, is the resurrection an event or is it a process?

The resurrection is an event and "sanctification" which is a process that is to suppose to last throughout a believers life in order to be more conformed to Jesus Christ. Just out of curiosity are you confusing resurrection with sanctification, just asking?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Nehemiah6]

So was Jesus speaking to legitimatize this tradition of baptism of the dead or was he using it as an example to show them their flawed thinking?

1. Jesus never ever legitimized false teachings or false traditions.

2. Jesus never spoke of the baptism of (or for) the dead.

3. No one can be baptized for someone else, and salvation is never by proxy.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When God corrupted the whole first creation he did more than a half a job or more than meets the eye. .

Why would you say that God *corrupted* the whole first creation (or corrupted anything)? Why are you confusing God with Satan?

 

[Dino246]

Thanks

I think he meant fleshly bodies will be raised from the dust and judged twice. . Our new spirit comes from above. Its where it returns to when the breath of the corrupted spirit is taken away. . If born again we receive a new incorruptible spirit. the dust will go up in smke on the last day. no more rudiments of this courted creation.

It would seem that kind of animation is reincarnation giving spirit life to the flesh restoring it. . The dead will not raise. They have no spirit . The letter of the law that kills. . it will be tossed into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn any creation ever again.

I think you're on the right track, but you would still do well to look up the meaning of 'reincarnation' and not use it carelessly.

 

[Ahwatukee]

An event with Jesus raised from death, along with saints when the skies darkened if my memory is correct.

But resurrection life is a process in us that by faith we can walk in. It took way too many years for me to see this but the power of this life never diminishes. Few partake.

Hello stonesoffire,

I believe that you are speaking about sanctification, i.e. the process of being made holy. The resurrection itself is not a process, but is group event that will take place all at once, in a moment, where all of the dead in Christ throughout the entire church period will rise and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and that all at the same time. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" is defined by two words "ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly, to stand up again in a physical body.

When the resurrection takes place, it will involve all of those who have died in Christ throughout the entire church period, who will all rise at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. That's an event, not a process.

 

[PERFECTION]

LOL I am over here. The short old guy.

Is it just those who have a good understanding? Your kind of understanding? When God corrupted the whole first creation he did more than a half a job or more than meets the eye. .

Where are we informed that it did include his spirit as in dying you will die? The whole body soul and mind was found guilty . In so much that you will surely die .The same wrath of God being revealed from heavenly daily. .

In one sense Hollywood takes the unseen things and turns them into lively drama.. the lust of the eye. .as amusement (not think) Taking those dead in their trespasses and sins and making them in the living dead. dead men walking. We should be careful on how we can hear God. Like the Lone Ranger and Tonto a peace mission. Not a salvation issue..

Was the judgment in respect to the flesh alone? Like for instance. . Flesh and blood you will surely die. Spirit. . you will suffer forever because I am a merciless God. . And like the Jehovah witnesses they are hoping he will change it. .Like God can reverse the curse and make it incorruptible flesh ? Catholics try to make it about the blood what the eyes see... and not the spirit as the essence of life .

It would seem to be the thing to do to those who literalize the spiritual understanding,. Jesus said his flesh profits for nothing. It was kept from corrupting three days to show us it did not profit because it could not. . .that's the judgment that will be tossed in the lake of fire is the letter of the law. It (you shall surely die) will not rise to condemn any other new creation . Its smoke as at witness the substance was consumed will rise forever as a witness against it.

Bible prophecy seems to place us in an unattainable position and in the natural this is

Why does the question still remain, when I provided the answer? To be clear, below is the detailed account of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up:

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words"

According to the scripture above, the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first, immortal and glorified. All of those in Christ who will have died in Christ from the on-set of the church up until the appearing of the Lord, their bodies will all be reanimated and raised from the dust of the earth and all at the same time. Immediately after the dead have been raised, those still alive in Christ will be transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with the dead who will have just resurrected. At that moment the entire church will be gathered together, from beginning to end, at the same time and same place in the air, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

Therefore in answer to your question, the resurrection is an event which will take place in a flash, or as the Greek word atomos which is defined as a moment of time to short to be divided, is how quickly this event of the resurrection and our transformation will take place.

As for the word "process," it describes a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end, which is not the case with the resurrection and those being changed and caught up. To be clear, the resurrection will be an event which will take place in a Nano second to all who have died in Christ and to those in Christ who are still alive.

To be even clearer, the resurrection is not a process that takes place over time to each individual, but will be an event which happens all at once.

I hope that this answers your question.

Blessings in Christ!

Ref: Mark 9:4 Reading this scripture does it appear to you that Elijah or Moses where in need of resurrection? One thing that has all ways been puzzling to me is how did the disciples know it was Elijah and Moses. Anyway the traditional teaching of the resurrection which states that we rise from the ground (that is if we are dead at the time) with a new body implies that the soul and spirit have no identity. Then most troubling of all concerns the the book of Her: chapter 11 and 12. In chapter 11 in goes into detail about the persecution and martyrdom of the Gods patriarchs. Then comes this "And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith received NOT the promise. God having provided some better thing concerning US that apart from us they should NOT be made PERFECT.
Chap: 12:1 Therefore let US seeing that WE are compassed about with so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES ........ who are these in this gathering that surrounds us. Are they people who need resurrection? Interesting

 

[PERFECTION]

Bible prophecy seems to place us in an unattainable position and in the natural this is


Ref: Mark 9:4 Reading this scripture does it appear to you that Elijah or Moses where in need of resurrection? One thing that has all ways been puzzling to me is how did the disciples know it was Elijah and Moses. Anyway the traditional teaching of the resurrection which states that we rise from the ground (that is if we are dead at the time) with a new body implies that the soul and spirit have no identity. Then most troubling of all concerns the the book of Her: chapter 11 and 12. In chapter 11 in goes into detail about the persecution and martyrdom of the Gods patriarchs. Then comes this "And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith received NOT the promise. God having provided some better thing concerning US that apart from us they should NOT be made PERFECT.
Chap: 12:1 Therefore let US seeing that WE are compassed about with so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES ........ who are these in this gathering that surrounds us. Are they people who need resurrection? Interesting

 

[Ahwatukee]

Bible prophecy seems to place us in an unattainable position and in the natural this is


Ref: Mark 9:4 Reading this scripture does it appear to you that Elijah or Moses where in need of resurrection? One thing that has all ways been puzzling to me is how did the disciples know it was Elijah and Moses. Anyway the traditional teaching of the resurrection which states that we rise from the ground (that is if we are dead at the time) with a new body implies that the soul and spirit have no identity.

I always wondered how they knew it that it was Moses and Elijah also. Maybe it was spiritually made known to them.

Regarding "a new body implies that the soul and spirit have no identity" I do not believe that is true. Scripture states that when the body dies, the spirit, which is conscious and aware being the essence of the person, departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. While the body is buried or cremated. An example of this would be "the rich man and Lazarus." The context has the bodies of both men dying, with their spirits being found in Hades; the spirit of Lazarus being in that area of comfort and the spirit of the rich man being in the area of torment in flame. Regarding this, the rich man was conscious and aware, could feel the pain of the flame and was concerned about his brothers who were still living up on the earth, which all demonstrates that the spirit definitely has identity. It's just no longer in the body.

At the resurrection, the Lord will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him and their bodies will rise being united with their resurrected bodies. It will be the same original body, but with a heavenly upgrade called a spiritual body with heavenly abilities. Jesus' resurrection is our example. When the women went to the tomb, His body was not there and that because His spirit reentered His body and had already left the tomb. As the word "anastasis" proclaims, The Lord stood up again in the same body. In support of this, when Jesus appeared behind closed doors to His disciples, they though that He was a spirit. So to prove that it was Him in the same body, He showed them the nail marks in His hands and feet and said, "a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone as you see I have."

Then most troubling of all concerns the the book of Her: chapter 11 and 12. In chapter 11 in goes into detail about the persecution and martyrdom of the Gods patriarchs. Then comes this "And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith received NOT the promise. God having provided some better thing concerning US that apart from us they should NOT be made PERFECT.
Chap: 12:1 Therefore let US seeing that WE are compassed about with so great a CLOUD OF WITNESSES ........ who are these in this gathering that surrounds us. Are they people who need resurrection? Interesting

That great cloud of witnesses, are the hero's of faith (Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Gideon, etc.) whom he mentions, which is referring to their spirits and who will be resurrected when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

It is important to understand that no one has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified body, except for Jesus who is the first fruits of the resurrection with the church as being the next phase of the first resurrection.

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

 

[KJV1611]

Question: The resurrection as taught by Paul, is it an event or is it a process ?

It’s a process that started when Christ rose from the dead. He rose and then the Old Testament saints rose immediately after him.

They and Christ are the first fruits or the first resurrection.

 

[Noose]

In other threads you have argued that resurrection of the dead as a miraculous event never occurs because "precious in the sight of the Lord is the DEATH of His saints."

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. I'd encourage you to review your beliefs, and your integrity, in light of Scripture.

No.
Rapture/miraculous flying off without dying does not occur because precious in the sight of God is the death of His saints. The gift of healing too ceased because of the same and because God guides His people from evil through death.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No.
Rapture/miraculous flying off without dying does not occur because precious in the sight of God is the death of His saints. The gift of healing too ceased because of the same and because God guides His people from evil through death.

Noose, while it is true that the death of His saints are precious in God's sight, it does not nullify the other scriptures which proclaim that the living will be changed/transformed and caught up. You can't deny the scriptures clear meaning below:

"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

"But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. (NTL)

Notice that it mentions both the dead and living in Christ, saying "We shall not all die, but will be transformed." Those who have died up to that point will be resurrected and those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them.

Why do you and others latch on to a specific scripture, but ignore the others? It doesn't make any sense. You just sweep them under the rug in order to support one side. However, the fact remains that the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up, will take place when the Lord comes to gather His church.

By the way, regarding "Rapture/miraculous" does God not perform miracles? Did not all of those saints come out of the tombs after Jesus resurrected? And speaking of Jesus resurrection, since God resurrected Him from the dead, why is it so hard to believe if God says that He is going to raise the dead and change the living?

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

The living being "caught up together with the resurrected in the clouds" is indeed flying off without dying whether you choose to acknowledge or not. Otherwise, you are just not able to comprehend what the scripture is saying, or you are just plain ignoring it.

 

[Noose]

So was Jesus speaking to legitimatize this tradition of baptism of the dead or was he using it as an example to show them their flawed thinking? This is the one and only place in the scripture such a tradition is mentioned furthermore I cannot recall of any such tradition being taught period. Consider this, baptism is given to us a act on our part, that we join in Christ in His death burial and resurrection. The fact that Jesus had at this point had not achieved this process makes you wonder just where did this tradition originate.

1. Not baptism of the dead but baptism for the dead

I know there's a lot of weird teachings about baptism and weird symbols that come with these teachings.
The baptism for the dead that Paul mentions, has nothing to do with touching a dead body but it concerned the living. A good example of such a baptism is the one Catholics do to children; they baptize children and give them names of saints believing that these saints will actually guide the living.

2. Baptism is not about the practice but it is an underlying belief symbolized in a practice
Paul's teaching was not legitimizing a practice but rather used the practice to explain the underlying belief (resurrection) as a fact.
If the kind of resurrection you believe in doesn't go hand in hand with what Paul taught and the examples he used, then you know you have been lied to. Thou shall not toss away part of scripture to legitimize thy own understanding.

3. "It is one and only place in the scripture it is mentioned and we can not recall any such traditions.."

The above statement is a spiritual meme, currently trending. So people would rather follow what's trending in the churches. Fatal mistake.
Just read the bible again; The saints of the old, when they were about to die or when they died, it was said, they were 'gathered to their people'. The statement "..breathed his last, died and was gathered to his people.." is very common in the OT.
I'm not saying that the being 'gathered to the their people' is the indwelling or the promise to indwell believers at he right time though to me, it sounds as such. What this statement doesn't mean however, is that the remaining people are gathered to mourn the dead - figure that out.

If this is true, then the underlying belief of saints resurrecting and indwelling believers was not a new thing in the 1st century and thus Paul used the belief to confirm resurrection.

4. Agreeing with the above gives another dimension (not so common) about resurrection.
Yes, Paul taught a different kind of resurrection than the one we are taught today.
At one point he says "we who are alive, shall not precede those that are asleep, those that are asleep shall rise first and be caught together with us.." and in another point says " we shall die, be resurrected and be caught together with you".
All these being said in the form of a letter. No one read the letter and marveled, "ooh, this must be distant future or something", the letter spoke directly to the recipients. This shows that resurrection is a continuous process that started at some point and covers the entire Church era.

 

[Noose]

Noose, while it is true that the death of His saints are precious in God's sight, it does not nullify the other scriptures which proclaim that the living will be changed/transformed and caught up. You can't deny the scriptures clear meaning below:

"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

"But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. (NTL)

Notice that it mentions both the dead and living in Christ, saying "We shall not all die, but will be transformed." Those who have died up to that point will be resurrected and those who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them.

Why do you and others latch on to a specific scripture, but ignore the others? It doesn't make any sense. You just sweep them under the rug in order to support one side. However, the fact remains that the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up, will take place when the Lord comes to gather His church.

By the way, regarding "Rapture/miraculous" does God not perform miracles? Did not all of those saints come out of the tombs after Jesus resurrected? And speaking of Jesus resurrection, since God resurrected Him from the dead, why is it so hard to believe if God says that He is going to raise the dead and change the living?

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

The living being "caught up together with the resurrected in the clouds" is indeed flying off without dying whether you choose to acknowledge or not. Otherwise, you are just not able to comprehend what the scripture is saying, or you are just plain ignoring it.

Give me time, i will surely explain.

Response loading ....................

 

[Ahwatukee]

Give me time, i will surely explain.

Response loading ....................

There is no need to respond, because you can't refute the scriptures that I've already provided.

 

[stonesoffire]

Hello stonesoffire,

I believe that you are speaking about sanctification, i.e. the process of being made holy. The resurrection itself is not a process, but is group event that will take place all at once, in a moment, where all of the dead in Christ throughout the entire church period will rise and be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and that all at the same time. The word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection" is defined by two words "ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly, to stand up again in a physical body.

When the resurrection takes place, it will involve all of those who have died in Christ throughout the entire church period, who will all rise at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. That's an event, not a process.

No, Am not. I’m speaking about resurrection life.

 

[stonesoffire]

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

No, Am not. I’m speaking about resurrection life.

 

[Noose]

Ok, that makes sense since Noose is on my ignore list. Quite true that reanimation and reincarnation are not the same thing.

This is for Noose, since I know that you have a good understanding of scripture.

At the time of the resurrection God will reanimate the bodies of the dead in Christ, being raised immortal and glorified. Where reincarnation is a Hindu pagan belief of people going through life after life, sometimes even coming back as an animal. However, scripture states that man is once to die then comes the judgment.

We follow the example of Jesus:

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

1. Jesus resurrected immediately after dying and no one saw because it is a spiritual happening rather than a physical one

2. Yes it can happen that people see a resurrected body/spiritual body, example: Jesus after resurrection or the OT saints that appeared but this is a spiritual appearance. It plays in the mind of the witnesses as if a vision (my opinion). So no flesh and bones, these must pass away because they are the works of this earth.