Rev 1921

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Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#61
But the same Paul also wrote:
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil 4:5


So it has to be interpreted with all the other verses about the coming of the Lord. If the Day of Christ is the same as the Day of the Lord. And if we have entered into the Day of the Lord then these things will be proof. This has not happened yet so we are not technically in the Day of the Lord. If you interpret "at hand" meaning at any moment, and say that we must not expect the return of the Lord at any moment, then you have to explain many other verses of scripture. Below are only a sample of many others.

I do think it is obvious that the gathering together unto Him occurs very near the event of the Antichrist being revealed. This can all happen in a very short time frame. The same day even. This is why both can be true. The Day of the Lord will not officially begin until this prophetic event and also the saints will be gathered unto Him when this event occurs. This is a possible interpretation.

I cannot insist on a period of time of days or months or years between the revelation of the son of perdition and the gathering of the saints unto Him based on this scripture. The revelation of that Wicked will be sign that the Day of the Lord has began, and if that has happened then they would have reason to be shaken in mind. But we are not to be shaken in mind because we are promised escape from that day of wrath. So be comforted that you have not entered into the Day of the Lord. That is not going to happen. You will be gathered unto Him before the antichrist is revealed to the world. This is what I think he is saying based on the "shaken in mind" reason.

And this interpretation reconciles with all those that tell us to live expecting his sudden appearing. Not that we are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Philippians 4:5
Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand;

Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 1:7
So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 16:15
(“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

I allow my brothers to have a different opinion about the timing of the rapture and the Day of the Lord and not think they are trying to deceive people. It is not a false doctrine. It is simply a matter of trying to understand what the scriptures mean and what the Lord wants us to do about it. For the most part we should be able to all agree that we are to live every ready for the coming of the Lord.

That there will be an end time out pouring of judgments.

That we must live ready to be found in Him without spot and blameless at His appearing.

That we are promised deliverance from the wrath to come.

These are the main ideas we get from all the scripturas combined. The rest we can allow each other to speculate where the scriptures are not crystal clear but we should not strive and accuse one another of false teaching over the timing of the rapture.
There Are Signs Before The Second Coming Happens, Those Seen Below Must Take Place.

The Antichrist must be revealed, proclaiming to be God on earth.

"Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means"

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jerusalem surrounded by armies, signs in the sun, moon, men fearful

Luke 21:20-28KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 
Mar 21, 2009
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#62
All the commentaries I have looked at agree that he meant the coming of the Lord. The revelation of Jesus Christ. I will examine the Greek analysis from someone I respect like Gordon Fee or FF Bruce or someone who knows what they are talking about and get back with you.
It was a saying among them. Similar to Maranatha. Our Lord Cometh! It was the attitude of the first church. They were taught to expect the coming of the Lord. They were not wrong. It could have happened at any time. It is not a day on a calendar. The fact that it has taken 2000 years does not mean that it could not have happened in their day if God had chosen. It is hard to grasp that but we must understand why Jesus who is the Son of God said that only the Father knows the day or hour. He can extend it at His will. Each generation must live ready.
 
Mar 21, 2009
3,952
1,527
113
New York
#63
There Are Signs Before The Second Coming Happens, Those Seen Below Must Take Place.

The Antichrist must be revealed, proclaiming to be God on earth.

"Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means"

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jerusalem surrounded by armies, signs in the sun, moon, men fearful

Luke 21:20-28KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
This is why I am not dogmatic about the timing. The revelation of the son of perdition might occur right before the rapture but it might be so close together that it happens on the same day. We don't know. It could be the same week. The events seem to be connected. We will not be around long after that prophetic event.

And the holy of holies could be constructed in a tent next week and all this happen so fast that people who were expecting a rebuilt temple will be surprised at the sudden fulfilment of the prophesy. We must not look for anything other than the coming of the Lord and be motivated by that expectation. And for each of us there is always the possibility that we will be with Christ before the sun rises in the morning. (to depart and be with Christ is far better)
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#64
It was a saying among them. Similar to Maranatha. Our Lord Cometh! It was the attitude of the first church. They were taught to expect the coming of the Lord. They were not wrong. It could have happened at any time. It is not a day on a calendar. The fact that it has taken 2000 years does not mean that it could not have happened in their day if God had chosen. It is hard to grasp that but we must understand why Jesus who is the Son of God said that only the Father knows the day or hour. He can extend it at His will. Each generation must live ready.
I Disagree, "It Could Have Happened At Any Time" 100% Wrong In Love

There Are Many Signs That Precede The Second Coming,

I Listed A Few In Post #61 Above
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
5,382
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#65
This is why I am not dogmatic about the timing. The revelation of the son of perdition might occur right before the rapture but it might be so close together that it happens on the same day. We don't know. It could be the same week. The events seem to be connected. We will not be around long after that prophetic event.

And the holy of holies could be constructed in a tent next week and all this happen so fast that people who were expecting a rebuilt temple will be surprised at the sudden fulfilment of the prophesy. We must not look for anything other than the coming of the Lord and be motivated by that expectation. And for each of us there is always the possibility that we will be with Christ before the sun rises in the morning. (to depart and be with Christ is far better)
Your claim of a Mid Trib rapture is also 100% wrong in love, the scripture presented to you in post #61 above is (Screaming) Post Trib Rapture/Catching Up

The Church will be present on earth to witness Jerusalem Surrounded, the Antichrist revealed, Signs In The Sun, Moon, And Witness The Second Coming As Seen In Bold Red Beliw, Luke 21:27-28?

Jerusalem surrounded by armies, signs in the sun, moon, men fearful

Lift Up "YOUR" Heads "Church" On Earth

Luke 21:20-28KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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yeshuaofisrael.org
#66
It was a saying among them. Similar to Maranatha. Our Lord Cometh! It was the attitude of the first church. They were taught to expect the coming of the Lord. They were not wrong. It could have happened at any time. It is not a day on a calendar. The fact that it has taken 2000 years does not mean that it could not have happened in their day if God had chosen. It is hard to grasp that but we must understand why Jesus who is the Son of God said that only the Father knows the day or hour. He can extend it at His will. Each generation must live ready.
Do you really think that Christ does not know the day and hour of His coming, now that He is with the Father? I believe He, now glorified, has the same knowledge as our Father. Paul also realized this: 1 Cor. 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

I will say many prayers for you believers to have strength to endure what antichrist has for you. When you realize there is no pre-trib taking up [rapture]. When are are killed for the gospel sake will you be in heaven? Antichrist makes war with the saints and overcomes them. Most of us will be killed, but go with grace for God hasn't left you unless you can endure what is ahead. :cool:(y)
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
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#67
All the commentaries I have looked at agree that he meant the coming of the Lord. The revelation of Jesus Christ. I will examine the Greek analysis from someone I respect like Gordon Fee or FF Bruce or someone who knows what they are talking about and get back with you.
I think Gill expresses it correctly as accurately to the context of the chapter:

The Lord is at hand. The Syriac version reads, "our Lord": and the Ethiopic version, "God is at hand". The sense is, either the Lord is near, he is omnipresent, and sees and observes the conduct of his people, their deportment in the world, and to one another; and therefore, as in his presence, and under his eye, they should behave according to equity, and with kindness and tenderness towards their fellow creatures and fellow Christians: or the Lord is nigh unto them, as he is to all that call upon him in truth, Psa_145:18; he is a present help in time of trouble, Psa_46:1; he is in the midst of them, and will help, and that right early
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,550
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#68
he is a God of order and always warns and gives certain signs before anything happenings honestly a random rapture doesn't seem to fit the bill...
Had you studied the rapture of Enoch and the taking up of Elijah into Heaven, you would not be making this statement. So let's look at the Rapture of Enoch, without any forewarning of any kind:

And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen 5:22-24)

By faith Enoch was translated [raptured] that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)

"And was not found" confirms the suddenness and unexpectedness of Enoch's rapture. One moment he was walking about on earth. The next moment he was in Heaven. And Elijah's experience was exactly the same, except in his case God sent a chariot of fire to take him heavenward. So it will be with the saints of God at the Resurrection/Rapture. One moment they will be going about their business. The next moment they will be in Heaven. That will be a sheer miracle since the Bible says that it is in a moment, in "the twinkling of an eye".
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#69
And what is the 3.5 years before that?
Seven years of Tribulation occur after the Rapture.

The Rapture- which marks the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation down on Earth and our glorification and the Marriage Supper up in Heaven. After seven years we shall come back down with Him. Armageddon will ensue and then the 1000 year Millennium.

The GT occurs midway through the Tribulation Period of 7 years.


Why would the rapture happen so long before the Great Tribulation?
Who is to say that 3.5 years is long? We believe what the Bible says. Blessed are they who escape God's wrath upon the Earth in those days.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#70
I'm beginning to wonder about you.

What part of that don't you understand?
It only says the New Jerusalem would forever be lit. Sheesh.
IF the sun was sitting on the earth, could it give light to it? No, it couldn't. It would only give light to that side of the earth. The New Jerusalem may actually be in orbit around the earth. If you have the New Jerusalem stationary and sitting on the earth, then the light would be limited to the surrounding area and the other parts of the new earth would never receive it's light.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#71
JB, stop counting the Lord's appearing in the air as being a coming and you will not have a problem. When the Lord comes to gather the church, He only descends to the atmosphere, where He first calls up the dead and then the living and then returns to the Father's house. It isn't until the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. So, His second coming to the earth to end the age will only be one time. However prior to that, He will appear in the atmosphere to call us up, where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as promised.

In addition and as I keep reminding you, if you have the church being gathered at the same time that the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which cannot and will not happen, because God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. Your view stomps all over that principle.
It's always revealing to see those who 'red x' my posts, but they fail to mention what it is that they are rejecting. And they never provide any scripture to support the reason for their rejection.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#72
IF the sun was sitting on the earth, could it give light to it?
Perhaps our new atmosphere shall have greater diffusive capabilities? Perhaps reflective qualities? We shall find out soon! PTL!:coffee:
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
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#73
Seven years of Tribulation occur after the Rapture.
Which is what I said originally. The entire trib is only 42 months long, no more from start to end.
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
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#75
Originally it was to be that long but it was shortened:

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
 

Edify

Active member
Jan 27, 2021
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#76
IF the sun was sitting on the earth, could it give light to it? No, it couldn't. It would only give light to that side of the earth. The New Jerusalem may actually be in orbit around the earth. If you have the New Jerusalem stationary and sitting on the earth, then the light would be limited to the surrounding area and the other parts of the new earth would never receive it's light.
Testing 1,2 3... can U hear me now?
Maybe I need to print a little louder.
Rev 21:10And he carried me away [g]in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, (coming out of the 1st heaven, the atmosphere.) 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it(the city, not the earth), for the glory of God has illuminated it(the city, not the earth), and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it(the city, not the earth). 25In the daytime its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those [t]whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
What part of the city don't you understand?
I haven't seen a single verse of what you said.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#77
IF the sun was sitting on the earth, could it give light to it? No, it couldn't. It would only give light to that side of the earth. The New Jerusalem may actually be in orbit around the earth. If you have the New Jerusalem stationary and sitting on the earth, then the light would be limited to the surrounding area and the other parts of the new earth would never receive it's light.
I don't see why you would give me a red x on that, as what I explained makes sense. If you were in a gymnasium and you put a lamp in the middle, would it give light to the entire floor? No it wouldn't, because it is sitting on the floor. It's light is restricted to a smaller area. However, if you put the light way up in the air, then the whole gym is illuminated. I believe it will be the same with the new Jerusalem. If it is just sitting on the ground, it's not going illuminate the other side of the world, but only one side. It seems more logical to me that the New Jerusalem is going to be orbiting the new earth. For it states that there will be no need for the sun or moon to shine on the new earth (which are both in outer space), because the New Jerusalem will be replacing the light of the sun and the moon. Both of these give light to the earth because they sit high above and orbit it.

However, no need to be at odds with each other. I'm sure that we and everyone else will find out the truth of this matter when we see it, yes?
 

Edify

Active member
Jan 27, 2021
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#78
I don't see why you would give me a red x on that, as what I explained makes sense. If you were in a gymnasium and you put a lamp in the middle, would it give light to the entire floor? No it wouldn't, because it is sitting on the floor. It's light is restricted to a smaller area. However, if you put the light way up in the air, then the whole gym is illuminated. I believe it will be the same with the new Jerusalem. If it is just sitting on the ground, it's not going illuminate the other side of the world, but only one side. It seems more logical to me that the New Jerusalem is going to be orbiting the new earth. For it states that there will be no need for the sun or moon to shine on the new earth (which are both in outer space), because the New Jerusalem will be replacing the light of the sun and the moon. Both of these give light to the earth because they sit high above and orbit it.

However, no need to be at odds with each other. I'm sure that we and everyone else will find out the truth of this matter when we see it, yes?
Here's the thing... you seem to be a spot-on guy when it comes to most Bible stuff. That's a compliment.
Yet, here we are with something plainly written that my 11 yr old grandaughter understood it was only talking about the city from reading it, yet out of nowhere you can't figure it out. I was flabbergasted, like WHAT?!? You gotta be kidding! So when you stuck to it, I was rather blown away. Most people on here I wouldn't had thought twice about it. I guess I'm guilty of sizing you up a little higher up the scale. If the mark offends you I'll remove it.:)
 

ewq1938

Active member
Oct 18, 2018
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#79
Here's the thing... you seem to be a spot-on guy when it comes to most Bible stuff. That's a compliment.
Yet, here we are with something plainly written that my 11 yr old grandaughter understood it was only talking about the city from reading it, yet out of nowhere you can't figure it out. I was flabbergasted, like WHAT?!? You gotta be kidding! So when you stuck to it, I was rather blown away. Most people on here I wouldn't had thought twice about it. I guess I'm guilty of sizing you up a little higher up the scale. If the mark offends you I'll remove it.:)

You are correct. The sun doesn't cease to shine, just that the one city doesn't NEED the sun's light.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#80
Here's the thing... you seem to be a spot-on guy when it comes to most Bible stuff. That's a compliment.
Yet, here we are with something plainly written that my 11 yr old grandaughter understood it was only talking about the city from reading it, yet out of nowhere you can't figure it out. I was flabbergasted, like WHAT?!? You gotta be kidding! So when you stuck to it, I was rather blown away. Most people on here I wouldn't had thought twice about it. I guess I'm guilty of sizing you up a little higher up the scale. If the mark offends you I'll remove it.:)
I have come to doubt if any two people on CC agree 100% about everything. So long as they believe and receive that Jesus is God and His blood is the only thing that can take away sin's stain, I count them as a brother and friend. Does it even matter how far off the ground the city floats? At least we agree there is a city being prepared.