Rev 22:18

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VW

VW

Banned
#1
Dec 22, 2009
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I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city which are written in the book.

Why do we think that this applies to the entire bible? The words used are clear, the words of the prophecy of this book.....................the words of the book of this prophecy. Is not this warning about the prophecy which Jesus Christ gave to John for the churches?
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#2
Jan 8, 2009
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Correct. Applies a) to prophecy only and b) only to prophecy in that book, which is obviously not the entire bible (as there was no bible with a new testament created when it was written) and it refers to this 'book', and we know the bible is a collection of books. The word bible means 'books'.

It's an ancient form of copyright protection. It's equivalent to us today saying (c) Copyright 2010.

But... it would be silly to think that such a severe penalty would not apply to other books in the bible just because they don't have a similar statement. God does not look kindly upon anyone who intentionally tampers with or falsifies the bible. Of course, this must involve intent to deceive. It's ok to tamper with the bible with good intent. Obviously all bible translators and people who create bible versions must change the bible to suit the language of the day. Obviously some guys decided to accept some books and reject others, and give us a complete canon. Obviously, the warning doesn't apply to a single old or new testament bible, despite whole books being removed from it to make the edition. Obviously when pastors preach their Sunday sermon and paraphrase or edit a verse to make their point stronger, they aren't breaking the rules. Obviously, a person suggesting that the mark of the beast is a microchip, when it is not even mentioned explicitly that it is, is not 'adding' to the bible in such a way that it violates the warning.

Not all books need a warning like this one in Revelation. The writings of Paul for example , mostly being letters, did not need a warning. Because when Paul wrote his letters he never considered them scripture. Getting a canonised scriptural status came much later. Who in their right mind writes a letter, and then adds a warning that anyone who changes it will suffer eternal torment?
 
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MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#3
Jan 8, 2009
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The gospels don't need a warning, because they are not really prophecy. Mostly are narratives and historical statements of fact. There shouldn't be any eternal death penalty if someone changes non-essential facts such as the number of fish that james peter and john caught. I believe the old testament contains warnings about changing God's Word. I think changing any prophecies would carry a severe penalty. This is because changing these, or changing Revelation, can impact the eternal salvation of those who read it. For example in Revelation, if someone changed where Jesus told a particular church to repent, to 'I am pleased with you, you are doing everything right", they might end up in hell because they are deceiving others into thinking they do not need to repent.
 
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VW

VW

Banned
#4
Dec 22, 2009
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MahogonySnail said:
Correct. Applies a) to prophecy only and b) only to prophecy in that book, which is obviously not the entire bible (as there was no bible with a new testament created when it was written) and it refers to this 'book', and we know the bible is a collection of books. The word bible means 'books'.

It's an ancient form of copyright protection. It's equivalent to us today saying (c) Copyright 2010.

But... it would be silly to think that such a severe penalty would not apply to other books in the bible just because they don't have a similar statement. God does not look kindly upon anyone who intentionally tampers with or falsifies the bible. Of course, this must involve intent to deceive. It's ok to tamper with the bible with good intent. Obviously all bible translators and people who create bible versions must change the bible to suit the language of the day. Obviously some guys decided to accept some books and reject others, and give us a complete canon. Obviously, the warning doesn't apply to a single old or new testament bible, despite whole books being removed from it to make the edition. Obviously when pastors preach their Sunday sermon and paraphrase or edit a verse to make their point stronger, they aren't breaking the rules. Obviously, a person suggesting that the mark of the beast is a microchip, when it is not even mentioned explicitly that it is, is not 'adding' to the bible in such a way that it violates the warning.

Not all books need a warning like this one in Revelation. The writings of Paul for example , mostly being letters, did not need a warning. Because when Paul wrote his letters he never considered them scripture. Getting a canonised scriptural status came much later. Who in their right mind writes a letter, and then adds a warning that anyone who changes it will suffer eternal torment?
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All true, but this warning is for the book of the prophecy, only. Why must we change what God says in His word to suit our purposes?

Is it okay to change the wording as long as we do not change the meaning? How do we know what God intended for the meaning? In this case, we find that we have changed the meaning to be something other than originally intended.

Thanks snail,

In His love,
vic
 
VW

VW

Banned
#5
Dec 22, 2009
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MahogonySnail said:
The gospels don't need a warning, because they are not really prophecy. Mostly are narratives and historical statements of fact. There shouldn't be any eternal death penalty if someone changes non-essential facts such as the number of fish that james peter and john caught. I believe the old testament contains warnings about changing God's Word. I think changing any prophecies would carry a severe penalty. This is because changing these, or changing Revelation, can impact the eternal salvation of those who read it. For example in Revelation, if someone changed where Jesus told a particular church to repent, to 'I am pleased with you, you are doing everything right", they might end up in hell because they are deceiving others into thinking they do not need to repent.
Click to expand...

Also, Revelations as John received from Jesus is the most read end time prophecy in all of history. This warning is very severe, but I bet even those who do not believe in God take heed of it.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#6
Jan 8, 2009
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I think its ok to change the wording without the meaning, otherwise we couldnt have our own bible versions, or anything. Not changing the words but changing the meaning would be far worse.
But the warning seems to be intended for believers, strangely. It mentions having ones name removed from the book of life. This cannot be referring to an unbeliever who is not named in the book of life in the first place! I wonder if Christ knew of some issues within the church at the time, perhaps a sect, which would try to change the prophecy to suit its own purposes.

Revelations contains a few things which might want to be changed by some christians, such as attacks against the Roman Empire, and against the papal Rome and Catholic church. A leader in the church that accepted immorality for example, might want to change Revelation because it contains a warning against that church. Those who followed Jezebel might want to keep what Christ said in Revelation a secret. Who knows?

I wouldn't say that just because other books don't have similar warnings, God would not punish for changing it. But I do disagree with people who say the warning applies to the whole bible. They don't understand that the bible is "books" , and that Revelation is as the warning says, "this book".
 
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VW

VW

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#7
Dec 22, 2009
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Well, I also believe that it is a warning to unbelievers, as it says that the plagues in the prophecy will be added to those who add to the prophecy. That would include anyone at all. All in all, a very strong warning.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#8
Jan 8, 2009
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There is a theory that God put that warning there, knowing it would be the last book in the future yet to be created new testament. In that sense the warning becomes a final closure and seal to the whole new testament. But since the new testament didnt exist in a single volume then, i dont agree with this view.

I agree it can refer to unbelievers as well, anyone. The general sense of 'adding' to it would mean those who claim it is only incomplete revelation, that there is further inspired revelation that they have had about end times events that is not revealed in Revelation. That is a sobering thought for any believer who is into end times conspiracy theory and the like, which instead of expounding revelation, attempts to add to it with new strange teachings. Or any unbeliever who takes Revelation and adds to it any pagan (eg Mayan) or other religion's end-times views. It might include anyone who takes Revelation and adds in the prophecies of past and present 'prophets', both secular and christian.
 
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C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#9
#9
MahogonySnail said:
Correct. Applies a) to prophecy only and b) only to prophecy in that book, which is obviously not the entire bible (as there was no bible with a new testament created when it was written) and it refers to this 'book', and we know the bible is a collection of books. The word bible means 'books'.

It's an ancient form of copyright protection. It's equivalent to us today saying (c) Copyright 2010.

But... it would be silly to think that such a severe penalty would not apply to other books in the bible just because they don't have a similar statement. God does not look kindly upon anyone who intentionally tampers with or falsifies the bible. Of course, this must involve intent to deceive. It's ok to tamper with the bible with good intent. Obviously all bible translators and people who create bible versions must change the bible to suit the language of the day. Obviously some guys decided to accept some books and reject others, and give us a complete canon. Obviously, the warning doesn't apply to a single old or new testament bible, despite whole books being removed from it to make the edition. Obviously when pastors preach their Sunday sermon and paraphrase or edit a verse to make their point stronger, they aren't breaking the rules. Obviously, a person suggesting that the mark of the beast is a microchip, when it is not even mentioned explicitly that it is, is not 'adding' to the bible in such a way that it violates the warning.

Not all books need a warning like this one in Revelation. The writings of Paul for example , mostly being letters, did not need a warning. Because when Paul wrote his letters he never considered them scripture. Getting a canonised scriptural status came much later. Who in their right mind writes a letter, and then adds a warning that anyone who changes it will suffer eternal torment?
Click to expand...
Mahogony, this is one of the most logical, reasonable and well thought out interpretation that I have seen of this passage.
 
A

Agnes

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#10
#10
MahogonySnail said:
The gospels don't need a warning, because they are not really prophecy. Mostly are narratives and historical statements of fact. There shouldn't be any eternal death penalty if someone changes non-essential facts such as the number of fish that james peter and john caught. I believe the old testament contains warnings about changing God's Word. I think changing any prophecies would carry a severe penalty. This is because changing these, or changing Revelation, can impact the eternal salvation of those who read it. For example in Revelation, if someone changed where Jesus told a particular church to repent, to 'I am pleased with you, you are doing everything right", they might end up in hell because they are deceiving others into thinking they do not need to repent.[/quote


The number of fish is very significant. If you only understood 153. Do the math before you make such an audiceious statement cliaming what is, isn't non essential facts. Otherwise I like what you wrote.

Respectfully,
Agnes
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S

socperkins

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#11
#11
Agnes said:
The number of fish is very significant. If you only understood 153. Do the math before you make such an audiceious statement cliaming what is, isn't non essential facts. Otherwise I like what you wrote.

Respectfully,
Agnes
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Could you explain this? I'm not very knowledgeable on hidden number codes.
 
I

Israel

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#12
#12
Deuteronomy 4:1-4

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
3Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you. 4But ye that did cleave unto the LORD your God are alive every one of you this day.



Deuteronomy 12:29-32

When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

30Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.


This applies to ALL of God's word....
 
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1still_waters

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#13
#13
Yes it's technically true this applies to just Revelation. But what are the motivations for folks who make a BIG deal about pointing this out in the first place?
 
VW

VW

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#14
Dec 22, 2009
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It a big deal because to say that it applies to the entire bible is using God's word for our own purpose. Our using His word, in any way, is to me a big deal. We should let Him use His word to teach us.
 
phil36

phil36

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#15
Feb 12, 2009
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I think in the first instance this is referring to the book of Revelation. However, we can take it that anyone who tampers with God's word will face God's Judgement for this. Moses talks in similar terms regarding the Law deut 4:2; 12:32.

also if you care to read Proverbs 30:6, you will start to get the idea VW that this is a message throughout all Scripture regarding the living word God has given us.

In Love

Phil
 
P

Pete_Martinez

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#16
Oct 1, 2009
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#16
Adding to Mahogany's thought, it was to keep copyists at the time to make sure that revelation was written down word for word. Revelation is a hard book to understand, so naturally people copying it would want to add their own little footnotes or allegories. The warning is there to preserve the book in it's purest form.
 
VW

VW

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#17
Dec 22, 2009
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phil36 said:
I think in the first instance this is referring to the book of Revelation. However, we can take it that anyone who tampers with God's word will face God's Judgement for this. Moses talks in similar terms regarding the Law deut 4:2; 12:32.

also if you care to read Proverbs 30:6, you will start to get the idea VW that this is a message throughout all Scripture regarding the living word God has given us.

In Love

Phil
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That is not the point Phil. I would not want to change scripture, in any way. At the same time, I would not want to use a scripture which seems to do what I want, when that is not what God is saying with it. This verse in Revelations is a prime example. Another is in Hebrews 10. There are many many other examples.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#18
Jan 8, 2009
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#18
The number of fish is very significant. If you only understood 153. Do the math before you make such an audiceious statement cliaming what is, isn't non essential facts. Otherwise I like what you wrote.

Respectfully,
Agnes
Click to expand...

What is the significance of 153 if you care to explain? If we are into strange number games or numerology perhaps it might have significance. But according to theologians like Don Carson it has no special significance. He talked about this one in his one of his sermons I heard, how people take irrelevant facts from the bible and make a big thing out of it, when it is simply a fact and there's no special hidden meaning behind it. So whether it was 70 fish, 153 fish, or 200 fish, makes no difference. The important point is that they caught a lot of fish.
 
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1still_waters

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#19
#19
I think what's cool is that God puts his very WORD above even his name. How awesome we have something so trustworthy to trust in. Nothing compares to God's word or ever will.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#20
Jan 8, 2009
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#20
Do you know that God even puts His Works above His Word? See where Jesus said something like "if you dont believe my words, at least believe me for the works I have done".
 
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