Revelation 11:1, 2

[Widdekind]

Before 70 AD, there had been no "Abomination of Desolation" in the temple. 70 AD was the Divine Judgement, before which, no such Judgement had occurred, so that the temple was still, technically, the temple to God in Jerusalem. The 42 months refers to the Roman siege of 67-70 AD. Josephus records a Prophet, named Jesus (son of Hananiah), who cried the town, during the siege, saying "woe, woe to Jerusalem", the entire time. Such resembles the Prophesied "two Witnesses" of Rev 11 -- which was therefore also, seemingly, fulfilled in that Roman siege.

Revelation 11:1 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:19 KJV
(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 11:1 cannot be the temple in Jerusalem because it calls it the temple of God. The temple in Jerusalem ceased being God's temple when Jesus died. God's temple is in heaven as other verses in Revelation show.

 

[Bistabuster]

widdekind:

70 AD is one event at one period of time. The abomination of desolation was in another time far far away from 70 AD. There has never been nor ever will be daily sacrifices in Jerusalem. Not then, not now, not ever! Understand this. Daily sacrifices ONLY happened in the OT. You are saying it happened yet again in the NT. NOT!!!!

66 AD did not have daily sacrifices used. Jesus removed that act when He died on the cross, so, if anybody attempts to do sacrifices in the NT, it will be null and void. God doesn't recognize Pagan worships.

Please study more of history and broaden your scope. See "The abomination of desolation" thread for the response I said to you in there.

 

[Bistabuster]

OK. If that is true, then explain this to me. I want to know how people decided that a third of the angels were cast out of heaven with Satan by this one verse. Rev 12:34. I know it's true but how can you prove to me that this verse says so.

This one will pertain indirectly to the two witnesses.

Ok. Since nobody wants to answer this question, I guess I have to. Since laodicea won't address this issue, I will.

The answer is.....Rev 1:20 and 20:1-2!
The seven stars which thou sawest.....Angels!
The seven golden candlesticks which thou sawest.....Churches!
The dragon is identified as Satan of which Muslims worship.

To sort these figures out we probably need to apply one of the
rules of hermeneutics. Now, hermeneutics is not a discipline we
play games with to fit our doctrines. It is a sound study of how to
interpret either the spoken word or a written document. Hermeneutics
has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the
rule of “scriptural adjacency.” That rule states: When you read
something you don’t understand, first study the surrounding text,
then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,
then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the
verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it’s a very
sound one. In other words . . .
We don’t go to the Old Testament for definitions of New
Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions
that fit perfectly!

You went to find your answer directly in the OT. That is EXACTLY what you did. Rom 11:17-24 has the other definition of the witnesses. That is described as a Jew. That story in Romans is describing that the Gentiles are also included in the salvation as it is not only for Jews only. Jesus used the olive tree to symbolize both Jews and Gentiles. Everybody is welcome!

So, your two witnesses are the church and the Jews.

 

[Laodicea]

Ok. Since nobody wants to answer this question, I guess I have to. Since laodicea won't address this issue, I will.

The answer is.....Rev 1:20 and 20:1-2!
The seven stars which thou sawest.....Angels!
The seven golden candlesticks which thou sawest.....Churches!
The dragon is identified as Satan of which Muslims worship.

To sort these figures out we probably need to apply one of the
rules of hermeneutics. Now, hermeneutics is not a discipline we
play games with to fit our doctrines. It is a sound study of how to
interpret either the spoken word or a written document. Hermeneutics
has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the
rule of “scriptural adjacency.” That rule states: When you read
something you don’t understand, first study the surrounding text,
then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,
then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the
verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it’s a very
sound one. In other words . . .
We don’t go to the Old Testament for definitions of New
Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions
that fit perfectly!

You went to find your answer directly in the OT. That is EXACTLY what you did. Rom 11:17-24 has the other definition of the witnesses. That is described as a Jew. That story in Romans is describing that the Gentiles are also included in the salvation as it is not only for Jews only. Jesus used the olive tree to symbolize both Jews and Gentiles. Everybody is welcome!

So, your two witnesses are the church and the Jews.

I knew you would answer sooner or later, your question was a loaded question.

 

[Laodicea]

Revelation 11:1 cannot be the temple in Jerusalem because it calls it the temple of God. The temple in Jerusalem ceased being God's temple when Jesus died. God's temple is in heaven as other verses in Revelation show.

Revelation 11:1 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:19 KJV
(19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

As I said before the temple of God mentioned in Revelation 11 is the one in heaven not the one on earth.

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

Ok. Since nobody wants to answer this question, I guess I have to. Since laodicea won't address this issue, I will.

The answer is.....Rev 1:20 and 20:1-2!
The seven stars which thou sawest.....Angels!
The seven golden candlesticks which thou sawest.....Churches!
The dragon is identified as Satan of which Muslims worship.

To sort these figures out we probably need to apply one of the
rules of hermeneutics. Now, hermeneutics is not a discipline we
play games with to fit our doctrines. It is a sound study of how to
interpret either the spoken word or a written document. Hermeneutics
has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the
rule of “scriptural adjacency.” That rule states: When you read
something you don’t understand, first study the surrounding text,
then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,
then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the
verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it’s a very
sound one. In other words . . .
We don’t go to the Old Testament for definitions of New
Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions
that fit perfectly!

You went to find your answer directly in the OT. That is EXACTLY what you did. Rom 11:17-24 has the other definition of the witnesses. That is described as a Jew. That story in Romans is describing that the Gentiles are also included in the salvation as it is not only for Jews only. Jesus used the olive tree to symbolize both Jews and Gentiles. Everybody is welcome!

So, your two witnesses are the church and the Jews.

Hermeneutics, is that something you learned in cemetary I meant seminary. I have never found the book of Hermen.

 

[Bistabuster]

Hermeneutics, is that something you learned in cemetary I meant seminary. I have never found the book of Hermen.

I got friends. They taught me these little things. It goes a long way to understanding Bible prophecy. My little bit of learning on this is if there is an allegorical word that needs defining, it will be somewhere in the Bible to tell you what it means.

One last point. If candlesticks are churches, why is it that people WHO KNOW that definition, re-define it in the same book? That's BAD theology and it doesn't work.

My next question is, what gave you the authority to use the seventy weeks as years? Why only the seventy weeks? If you can't use day/years, say for the two witnesses, then you can't use it anywhere else and that includes the seventy weeks. If you are allowed to use day/years, why didn't you use it everywhere else? Have you even tried? Anybody? Is it because you can't fit 1260 years for the witnesses into a 7 year period? What if there is no such thing as a 7 year period.

Point is, you can't change the rules because you don't like the outcome or don't understand it. Believe me. I needed a lot of help historically to understand all this stuff and it took a lot of time. I've been learning this stuff for 15 years. Whatever you do, don't be closed minded. Science is a "what if" game. You won't know anything if you don't apply it or test it. If you say it won't work, then we wouldn't be where we are today. I am an aircraft mechanic and I can tell you this. Some dudes a long time ago said it is impossible to make a machine heavier than air and have it fly. Anybody seen a 747 recently? Bible study is the same way. Take something small and build upon it. Take the Dome of the Rock. Just telling you one verse is describing that to be the abomination of desolation is not enough information to make it so. What you do is this. You don't quite understand why the DOTR is the A of D but for now, you are going to assume it is. Let's see how other things work around it. Pretty soon, you find things flow correctly around it. If you dismiss the DOTR being the A of D, you're right back to square one or believing a false prophecy! You never try new things and remain open minded. If you're closed minded, we have nothing more to say for you won't listen to new ways of thinking.

 

[Laodicea]

Ok. Since nobody wants to answer this question, I guess I have to. Since laodicea won't address this issue, I will.

The answer is.....Rev 1:20 and 20:1-2!
The seven stars which thou sawest.....Angels!
The seven golden candlesticks which thou sawest.....Churches!
The dragon is identified as Satan of which Muslims worship.

To sort these figures out we probably need to apply one of the
rules of hermeneutics. Now, hermeneutics is not a discipline we
play games with to fit our doctrines. It is a sound study of how to
interpret either the spoken word or a written document. Hermeneutics
has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the
rule of “scriptural adjacency.” That rule states: When you read
something you don’t understand, first study the surrounding text,
then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears,
then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the
verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it’s a very
sound one. In other words . . .
We don’t go to the Old Testament for definitions of New
Testament figures when there are New Testament definitions
that fit perfectly!

You went to find your answer directly in the OT. That is EXACTLY what you did. Rom 11:17-24 has the other definition of the witnesses. That is described as a Jew. That story in Romans is describing that the Gentiles are also included in the salvation as it is not only for Jews only. Jesus used the olive tree to symbolize both Jews and Gentiles. Everybody is welcome!

So, your two witnesses are the church and the Jews.

The book of Revelation is full of quotes from the OT so to ignore that is to ignore how the Bible was written.

 

[doulos]

The book of Revelation is full of quotes from the OT so to ignore that is to ignore how the Bible was written.

No one is saying to ignore the Old Testament but there is no point going to the Old Testament for definitions of terms used in the New Testament when the New Testament itself provides definitions. Can you show me where the definition of a candlestick changed between Rev1:20 and Rev 11:4? If not then why shouldn’t we use the definition from Rev? Besides when the terms were used in Zec4:2-3 they were defined as Zerubbabel and the two anointed ones. Those figures died about 2500 years ago so unless you expect some kind of special resurrection to happen to bring them back that pretty much eliminates them. But even if it didn’t that still would not help your case that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. But if you prefer standing by the Scripturally bankrupt teachings of the SDA over what is provable that is your choice.
As you are led friend, as you are led!

 

[Bistabuster]

No one is saying to ignore the Old Testament but there is no point going to the Old Testament for definitions of terms used in the New Testament when the New Testament itself provides definitions. Can you show me where the definition of a candlestick changed between Rev1:20 and Rev 11:4? If not then why shouldn’t we use the definition from Rev? Besides when the terms were used in Zec4:2-3 they were defined as Zerubbabel and the two anointed ones. Those figures died about 2500 years ago so unless you expect some kind of special resurrection to happen to bring them back that pretty much eliminates them. But even if it didn’t that still would not help your case that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. But if you prefer standing by the Scripturally bankrupt teachings of the SDA over what is provable that is your choice.
As you are led friend, as you are led!

Didn't I say that?

 

[doulos]

OK. If that is true, then explain this to me. I want to know how people decided that a third of the angels were cast out of heaven with Satan by this one verse. Rev 12:34. I know it's true but how can you prove to me that this verse says so.

This one will pertain indirectly to the two witnesses.

Just reinforcing what you said and adding a little about why the candlesticks of Rev11 can't be referring to Zec4. Also added that Zec4 does not support Laodecia's view that the witnesses are the Old and New Testaments as the Scripturally bankrupt view of eschatology the SDA teaches.

Sadly it appears Laodecia is more interested in proving the false teachings of the SDA then he is in searching for truth. Look through the old threads you will see Laodecia has been shown this multiple times but he still keeps rejecting the truth because it does not align with the false teachings of the SDA he desparately clings to.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

Be blesssed brother and may God bless your studies!

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Revelation 11:3-4 KJV
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The 1260 days mentioned in verse 3 is the same length of time as 42 months. They are clothed in sackcloth because of the persecution to God's people mentioned in verse 2. The 2 witnesses are clearly symbolic because verse 4 tells us who the two witnesses are. Verse 4 is a reference to Zechariah.

Zechariah 4:2-3 KJV
(2) And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
(3) And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

I will give power unto Moses and Aaron to be my witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the before Pharaoh the god of the earth.

Are we not seeing a picture of the call for the liberation of God's people from bondage to the great city called Sodom and Egypt here?

2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

 

[Laodicea]

No one is saying to ignore the Old Testament but there is no point going to the Old Testament for definitions of terms used in the New Testament when the New Testament itself provides definitions. Can you show me where the definition of a candlestick changed between Rev1:20 and Rev 11:4? If not then why shouldn’t we use the definition from Rev? Besides when the terms were used in Zec4:2-3 they were defined as Zerubbabel and the two anointed ones. Those figures died about 2500 years ago so unless you expect some kind of special resurrection to happen to bring them back that pretty much eliminates them. But even if it didn’t that still would not help your case that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament. But if you prefer standing by the Scripturally bankrupt teachings of the SDA over what is provable that is your choice.
As you are led friend, as you are led!

Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Answer this question, which temple is mentioned here? And what is the court?

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Answer this question, which temple is mentioned here? And what is the court?

That court is the visible part of the body of Christ which all men are able yet to enter into to receive of God's grace and begin the journey toward salvation, but which has come to be trampled in the world-wide network of churches know as Christendom, who is called Sodom as she has welcomed homosexual groups, just as they are without their needing to repent, and she holds tight to corrupted doctrines born of her spiritual fornication with this world, which she uses to enslave the minds of men and to hold God's people in bondage as did Egypt.

 

[doulos]

I will give power unto Moses and Aaron to be my witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the before Pharaoh the god of the earth.

Rev 11:1-2 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Can you show us where Scripture says Moses and Aaron are candlesticks and olive trees.Can you show us where Scripture tells us “the God of the earth” is paraoh?
Rev1 tells us seven candlesticks are seven churches (remember churches aren’t buildings but the believers themselves) so wouldn’t two candlesticks be two churches(groups of believers)? Romans tells us the olive trees consist of Jews and gentiles, so wouldn’t that be identifying which two groups of believers the candlesticks refer to? How does 2+2 =2 unless the first two represents groups and the second 2 identifies those groups?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If God/Word is unchanging then if candlesticks are churches in Rev1 they will still be churches in Rev11. If God/Word is unchanging and olive trees are Jew and Gentiles in Romans they will still be Jews and Gentiles in Rev 11. Nothing difficult about it if we accept what the unchanging God/Word tells us.

Are we not seeing a picture of the call for the liberation of God's people from bondage to the great city called Sodom and Egypt here?

No we are not seeing a “picture of the call for the liberation of God's people from bondage to the great city called Sodom and Egypt”. But if you think you can provide a Scripturally sound hermeneutic study of the Scriptures that says it is, you are welcome to try.

2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Are you suggesting that those who disagree with you are those who believe not?
Good verse but I suspect it applies to those who toss out the definitions the inspired Word of God provides so they can rely on their private interpretaions and guess work theology, not those who use the definitions Scripture itself provides for terms used figuratively that describe literal events.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[doulos]

Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Answer this question, which temple is mentioned here? And what is the court?

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John was told to write about things from His past, the present (for him circa 95AD) and His future. Either John was shown the old temple that Christ Himself declared desolate approximately 40 years before its destruction or he was shown the temple described in Ezekiel. Either way it isn’t the temple that is important in this case as it is only used to show John the exact location of the court which is where the AOD now stands.

The Court is the location of the blasphemous AOD which now stands approximately 300 feet from the location of the temple Christ declared desolate approximately 40 years before its destruction. Coincidently this is also the location of the profane place we are told about in Eze 42:20.

For those who are interested in finding the truth check out the following links;
THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION < click
MATHEMATICAL PRECISION OF PROPHECY <click
Laodicea in other discussions we have had, you said the candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments, can you show us where Scripture says candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments? Or will you once again avoid the issue and resort to asking questions because you are unable to provide a hermeneutically sound study of the Scriptures supporting the Scripturally bankrupt Seventh Day Adventist doctrine you espouse and cling to?

 

[nw2u]

Mathew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Laodicea]

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John was told to write about things from His past, the present (for him circa 95AD) and His future. Either John was shown the old temple that Christ Himself declared desolate approximately 40 years before its destruction or he was shown the temple described in Ezekiel. Either way it isn’t the temple that is important in this case as it is only used to show John the exact location of the court which is where the AOD now stands.

The Court is the location of the blasphemous AOD which now stands approximately 300 feet from the location of the temple Christ declared desolate approximately 40 years before its destruction. Coincidently this is also the location of the profane place we are told about in Eze 42:20.

For those who are interested in finding the truth check out the following links;
THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION < click
MATHEMATICAL PRECISION OF PROPHECY <click
Laodicea in other discussions we have had, you said the candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments, can you show us where Scripture says candlesticks and olive trees are the Old and New Testaments? Or will you once again avoid the issue and resort to asking questions because you are unable to provide a hermeneutically sound study of the Scriptures supporting the Scripturally bankrupt Seventh Day Adventist doctrine you espouse and cling to?

Why arn't you using hermanutic principles to tell us what the temple of God is in Revelation 11:1?

*[[Rev 11:19]] KJV* And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

According to hermanutic principles which you keep telling me of then the temple of God in Revelation 11:1 is the temple in heaven not on earth.

 

[Bistabuster]

Why arn't you using hermanutic principles to tell us what the temple of God is in Revelation 11:1?

*[[Rev 11:19]] KJV* And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

According to hermanutic principles which you keep telling me of then the temple of God in Revelation 11:1 is the temple in heaven not on earth.

Ok. If that is so, where is your definition verse? I never see one that justifies verse 2 unless there are the Gentiles that overtook Heaven. Not to mention, them other people will be in control IN HEAVEN for 42 months meaning God lost control of Heaven!!!!

Sounds good. I like it.

 

[Bistabuster]

I meant to say "Not to mention, them Gentile people will be in control IN HEAVEN for 42 months meaning God lost control of Heaven!!!!