REVELATION STUDY

[TheDivineWatermark]

Both verbs ἔζησαν - lived, and ἐβασίλευσαν - reigned are in the aorist indicative mode meaning they "continued to live and reign." We will look at the implications of this when we get to chapter 20.

I'm always pointing out how the very same word ('lived [aorist indicative]') is used in 2:8... re: Jesus... which is in relation to His "became [aorist indicative] dead" of that same verse... both of which words (in this v.8) are also "aorist indicative"... but which (in the one example) does not mean He continued to "became [dead]" ... instead, "He LIVED," which interrupted the other.

(same goes for the "beheaded" ones who will have DIED under the rule of the AC / beast [i.e. during a very specific time-period]... "AND THEY LIVED," just as He did [recall, in relation to His having "became DEAD"... that is, PHYSICALLY / BODILY ... (i.e. re: His BODILY RESURRECTION from the DEAD)])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I forgot... had meant to add the links:

Rev2:8 - Revelation 2:8 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) - G2198 - ezēsen [third person SINGULAR] (re: Jesus)

Rev20:4b - Revelation 20:4 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) - G2198 - ezēsan [third person PLURAL] (re: those 'beheaded' / not taking the mark)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

(same goes for the "beheaded" ones who will have DIED under the rule of the AC / beast [i.e. during a very specific time-period]... "AND THEY LIVED," just as He did [recall, in relation to His having "became DEAD"... that is, PHYSICALLY / BODILY ... (i.e. re: His BODILY RESURRECTION from the DEAD)])

...and this might be a good place to put another post I've made in the past (which correlates to the above point ^ ):

[quoting old post]


1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"


2 John 1:7 -

"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."




Do you see any distinction between the above-mentioned phrases:

--"having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and

--"coming [present participle] in flesh" ... ("coming [present participle]" like is used in 1Th1:10)


[end quoting old post]

 

[oldhermit]

I'm always pointing out how the very same word ('lived [aorist indicative]') is used in 2:8... re: Jesus... which is in relation to His "became [aorist indicative] dead" of that same verse... both of which words (in this v.8) are also "aorist indicative"... but which (in the one example) does not mean He continued to "became [dead]" ... instead, "He LIVED," which interrupted the other.

(same goes for the "beheaded" ones who will have DIED under the rule of the AC / beast [i.e. during a very specific time-period]... "AND THEY LIVED," just as He did [recall, in relation to His having "became DEAD"... that is, PHYSICALLY / BODILY ... (i.e. re: His BODILY RESURRECTION from the DEAD)])

That's a good point.

 

[oldhermit]

I'm always pointing out how the very same word ('lived [aorist indicative]') is used in 2:8... re: Jesus... which is in relation to His "became [aorist indicative] dead" of that same verse... both of which words (in this v.8) are also "aorist indicative"... but which (in the one example) does not mean He continued to "became [dead]" ... instead, "He LIVED," which interrupted the other.

(same goes for the "beheaded" ones who will have DIED under the rule of the AC / beast [i.e. during a very specific time-period]... "AND THEY LIVED," just as He did [recall, in relation to His having "became DEAD"... that is, PHYSICALLY / BODILY ... (i.e. re: His BODILY RESURRECTION from the DEAD)])

That is not uncommon usage. This is still a past event emphasising the fact that he WAS dead as most translators render it. This however, gave way to a change in status, "and came to life." The fact that he WAS dead remains a fact of history.

 

[oldhermit]

This does however, raise an interesting point. Why did John use the indicative in 2:8 rather than the perfect?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That is not uncommon usage.

My argument is not that it is uncommon. = )

This is still a past event emphasising the fact that he WAS dead as most translators render it.

I'm merely pointing out the comparison [comparable wording] in these two verses: Rev2:8 and Rev20:4b...

This however, gave way to a change in status, "and came to life."

... the same ^ is true in each case of the afore-mentioned two verses: Rev2:8 and Rev20:4b (again, in contrast to those in v.4a which is speaking instead of "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time-slot being referenced).

The fact that he WAS dead remains a fact of history.

So also... in the case of the 20:4b persons, who will have DIED [during a very specific time-period] (and now, at this point in the chronology, "and they LIVED"--same as Jesus did!) will forever be a "fact of history" when it will have occurred, re: these particular folks, but I'm not sure that's the sole point of the "comparison" [comparable language]. The "like thing" is that both verses speak of "a Person / people" who had "DIED / been DEAD / became DEAD" and [now / after that / after having DIED] "LIVED [G2198]" (referring to "physically / bodily," as in, having been "physically / bodily RESURRECTED from the DEAD" / from previously having been physically / bodily DEAD ).



As for the 20:4b people, this is in contrast to those in the next verse (20:5), of whom it is said, "but the rest of the dead LIVED [G2198 - ezēsan (3rd person plural)] NOT again UNTIL..."

 

[iamsoandso]

...and this might be a good place to put another post I've made in the past (which correlates to the above point ^ ):

[quoting old post]


1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"


2 John 1:7 -

"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."




Do you see any distinction between the above-mentioned phrases:

--"having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and

--"coming [present participle] in flesh" ... ("coming [present participle]" like is used in 1Th1:10)


[end quoting old post]

I'm unclear about 2 John 1:7 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_john/1-7.htm in that you stressed that,,,, "this is the deceiver and the antichrist"... Do you view the "man of lawlessness" and "the antichrist" as the same and that the prophecies concerning the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2:4 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm were fulfilled at that time?

 

[oldhermit]

My argument is not that it is uncommon. = )



I'm merely pointing out the comparison [comparable wording] in these two verses: Rev2:8 and Rev20:4b...



... the same ^ is true in each case of the afore-mentioned two verses: Rev2:8 and Rev20:4b (again, in contrast to those in v.4a which is speaking instead of "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time-slot being referenced).



So also... in the case of the 20:4b persons, who will have DIED [during a very specific time-period] (and now, at this point in the chronology, "and they LIVED"--same as Jesus did!) will forever be a "fact of history" when it will have occurred, re: these particular folks, but I'm not sure that's the sole point of the "comparison" [comparable language]. The "like thing" is that both verses speak of "a Person / people" who had "DIED / been DEAD / became DEAD" and [now / after that / after having DIED] "LIVED [G2198]" (referring to "physically / bodily," as in, having been "physically / bodily RESURRECTED from the DEAD" / from previously having been physically / bodily DEAD ).



As for the 20:4b people, this is in contrast to those in the next verse (20:5), of whom it is said, "but the rest of the dead LIVED [G2198 - ezēsan (3rd person plural)] NOT again UNTIL..."

The simple fact of the aorist indicative is that those of verse four lived and reigned at some point of time in the past, and now, even though dead, they continue to live and reign. The fact that they are dead does not change their status. John is not speaking here of a resurrection. I would really prefer to wait until we get to chapter 20 to continue this.

 

[Truth7t7]

The simple fact of the aorist indicative is that those of verse four lived and reigned at some point of time in the past, and now, even though dead, they continue to live and reign. The fact that they are dead does not change their status. John is not speaking here of a resurrection. I would really prefer to wait until we get to chapter 20 to continue this.

I agree, all believers are of the (Living) and those seen in Revelation 20:4 were saints killed, and they live and reign in the spiritual with the Lord.

John 11:25-27KJV
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

 

[oldhermit]

I'm unclear about 2 John 1:7 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_john/1-7.htm in that you stressed that,,,, "this is the deceiver and the antichrist"... Do you view the "man of lawlessness" and "the antichrist" as the same and that the prophecies concerning the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2:4 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm were fulfilled at that time?

Antichrist - ἀντίχριστος simply translated means one who is against Christ. The hype surrounding the idea of "Antichrist" that has reached such popularity among evangelicals is manufactured out of a mishandling of a number of texts. This nomenclature has been assigned to texts where it simply does not belong.

These passages represent EVERYTHING scripture tells us about an antichrist.

1 John 2:18-22 - "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

1 John 4:1-3 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

2 JOHN 7 - "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

In 1 John. 2:8-22 and 4:1-3
1. His presence marked the last hour at the time John wrote this epistle.
2. Antichrist was not a singular individual but a collective.
3. They came out of the Body.
4. They denied the Father and the Son.
5. They were false prophets.
6. They were already in the world when John wrote this epistle.
7. They were of the world.
8. They possessed the spirit of error.

2 John.
1. Again, John defines them as a collectivity of deceivers.
2. They had gone out into the world.
3. They denied that Jesus came in the flesh.
This is everything the Bible says about an antichrist. Everything else is speculation, conjecture, and misrepresentation of selected scriptures.

The word antichrist never appears anywhere in the book of Revelation. The insistance of many that an individual called the antichrist is in any way referred to in Revelation is completely without justification.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The simple fact of the aorist indicative is that those of verse four lived and reigned at some point of time in the past, and now, even though dead, they continue to live and reign. The fact that they are dead does not change their status. John is not speaking here of a resurrection. I would really prefer to wait until we get to chapter 20 to continue this.

Okay... let me just get this straight as to your viewpoint (of what we've covered thus far)...

... Am I correct in ascertaining that you do NOT see:

--any correlation between Rev20:4a with that of Daniel 7:22 "and judgment was given unto [/to] them [/the saints of the most High]"
( KJV Search Results for "judgment" AND "was" AND "given" (blueletterbible.org) [<--this phrase used ONLY 2x in Scripture]), where Dan7:22 is speaking of a very specific time-period (per the wording in v.25,27, i.e. the [roughly] 3.5 yrs), and speaking of "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time being referenced; and

--any correlation between the ones in Rev20:4b saints who will have "DIED" (also during a very specific time-period, per this verse's correlation with Rev14:9-12 re: those who do NOT take the mark during that very same 3.5 yr time-period);

--any distinction whatsoever between Rev20:4a (re: the "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time being referenced) and Rev20:4b (re: the saints who will have "DIED" under very specific circumstances, having to do with the very specific time-period referenced by both Rev14:9-12 and Rev13:5-7 [which time-period and circumstances parallel Daniel 7:20-25,27 with the "MOUTH" speaking great things, during a specific time-period]...

--the SEQUENCE and TIMING issues in the Olivet Discourse which disclose to us that "the 70ad events" must come "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth PANGS" [per Lk21:12a] (which BoBPs are the equivalent to the SEALS, and which SEALS are a part of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which [SEALS+ / LIMITED time-period] LEAD UP TO His physical / bodily (and VISIBLE) "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19:15b - Rev2:26-27 / Rev5:10 ["shall [future tense] reign on the earth"] / 19:16 / 17:14 / 1Tim6:15 ["shall [future tense] openly manifest"] / 16:14-16 / Isa24:21-22[23][<--the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in this Isa context (TWO separated by "TIME")]

--much more, but these are only the things already having been touched on in this thread [and perhaps your other related thread]... = )

 

[iamsoandso]

Antichrist - ἀντίχριστος simply translated means one who is against Christ. The hype surrounding the idea of "Antichrist" that has reached such popularity among evangelicals is manufactured out of a mishandling of a number of texts. This nomenclature has been assigned to texts where it simply does not belong.

These passages represent EVERYTHING scripture tells us about an antichrist.

1 John 2:18-22 - "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

1 John 4:1-3 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

2 JOHN 7 - "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

In 1 John. 2:8-22 and 4:1-3
1. His presence marked the last hour at the time John wrote this epistle.
2. Antichrist was not a singular individual but a collective.
3. They came out of the Body.
4. They denied the Father and the Son.
5. They were false prophets.
6. They were already in the world when John wrote this epistle.
7. They were of the world.
8. They possessed the spirit of error.

2 John.
1. Again, John defines them as a collectivity of deceivers.
2. They had gone out into the world.
3. They denied that Jesus came in the flesh.
This is everything the Bible says about an antichrist. Everything else is speculation, conjecture, and misrepresentation of selected scriptures.

The word antichrist never appears anywhere in the book of Revelation. The insistance of many that an individual called the antichrist is in any way referred to in Revelation is completely without justification.

Thank you for the explanation, antichrist,man of sin, beast ect. have been used as synonyms of one another until I find it best to ask how each individual sees this to be able to see how they are referring to it. I don't perceive the term antichrist interchangeable with beast,MoS, ect.

 

[oldhermit]

Okay... let me just get this straight as to your viewpoint (of what we've covered thus far)...

... Am I correct in ascertaining that you do NOT see:

--any correlation between Rev20:4a with that of Daniel 7:22 "and judgment was given unto [/to] them [/the saints of the most High]"
( KJV Search Results for "judgment" AND "was" AND "given" (blueletterbible.org) [<--this phrase used ONLY 2x in Scripture]), where Dan7:22 is speaking of a very specific time-period (per the wording in v.25,27, i.e. the [roughly] 3.5 yrs), and speaking of "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time being referenced; and

--any correlation between the ones in Rev20:4b saints who will have "DIED" (also during a very specific time-period, per this verse's correlation with Rev14:9-12 re: those who do NOT take the mark during that very same 3.5 yr time-period);

--any distinction whatsoever between Rev20:4a (re: the "STILL-LIVING saints" at the time being referenced) and Rev20:4b (re: the saints who will have "DIED" under very specific circumstances, having to do with the very specific time-period referenced by both Rev14:9-12 and Rev13:5-7 [which time-period and circumstances parallel Daniel 7:20-25,27 with the "MOUTH" speaking great things, during a specific time-period]...

--the SEQUENCE and TIMING issues in the Olivet Discourse which disclose to us that "the 70ad events" must come "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth PANGS" [per Lk21:12a] (which BoBPs are the equivalent to the SEALS, and which SEALS are a part of "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which [SEALS+ / LIMITED time-period] LEAD UP TO His physical / bodily (and VISIBLE) "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19:15b - Rev2:26-27 / Rev5:10 ["shall [future tense] reign on the earth"] / 19:16 / 17:14 / 1Tim6:15 ["shall [future tense] openly manifest"] / 16:14-16 / Isa24:21-22[23][<--the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in this Isa context (TWO separated by "TIME")]

--much more, but these are only the things already having been touched on in this thread [and perhaps your other related thread]... = )

Wow! Is there any way you can boil this down so that I can respond to it in a brief summary and not have to write a thesis to explain it?

 

[Truth7t7]

Antichrist - ἀντίχριστος simply translated means one who is against Christ. The hype surrounding the idea of "Antichrist" that has reached such popularity among evangelicals is manufactured out of a mishandling of a number of texts. This nomenclature has been assigned to texts where it simply does not belong.

These passages represent EVERYTHING scripture tells us about an antichrist.

1 John 2:18-22 - "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

1 John 4:1-3 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

2 JOHN 7 - "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

In 1 John. 2:8-22 and 4:1-3
1. His presence marked the last hour at the time John wrote this epistle.
2. Antichrist was not a singular individual but a collective.
3. They came out of the Body.
4. They denied the Father and the Son.
5. They were false prophets.
6. They were already in the world when John wrote this epistle.
7. They were of the world.
8. They possessed the spirit of error.

2 John.
1. Again, John defines them as a collectivity of deceivers.
2. They had gone out into the world.
3. They denied that Jesus came in the flesh.
This is everything the Bible says about an antichrist. Everything else is speculation, conjecture, and misrepresentation of selected scriptures.

The word antichrist never appears anywhere in the book of Revelation. The insistance of many that an individual called the antichrist is in any way referred to in Revelation is completely without justification.

The word (The Antichrist) is a catch all phrase, for the future human man that is identified several different places in the bible, just as the word (Trinity) is a catch all phrase for the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, being one.

Your use of 1 & 2 John is a "distraction", to the catch all phrase (The Antichrist), that you are well acquainted with, and know well it represents Daniel, Paul, And John in their human man described, as you desperately try to breathe life into your (Preterist) claims in (Historicism), that this figure has come and gone.

Examples: (The Antichrist)

Daniel's (Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11

Paul's (Man Of Sin, Son Of Perdition) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

John's (The Beast) Revelation 13:4

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Wow! Is there any way you can boil this down so that I can respond to it in a brief summary and not have to write a thesis to explain it?

I thought I already did that in the [small-sized] individual posts I put throughout these two related threads of yours... many of which posts you "Liked" (and apparently grasped).


It was just these latest ones where you changed from agreeing to disagreeing regarding my pointing out the parallel wording between Rev20:4b and that of Rev2:8, that we've apparently run into a bit of a snag... No worries, it'll all work out, I trust... = )

 

[oldhermit]

The word (Antichrist) is a catch all phrase, for the future human man that is identified several different places in the bible, just as the word (Trinity) is a catch all phrase for the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, being one.

Your use of 1 John is a "distraction", to the catch all phrase (The Antichrist), that you are well acquainted with, and know well it represents Daniel, Paul, And John in their human man described, as you desperately try to breathe life into you (Preterist) claims in (Historicism), that this figure has come and gone.

Examples: (The Antichrist)

Daniel's (Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11

Paul's (Man Of Sin, Son Of Perdition) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

John's (The Beast) Revelation 13:4

Can you show me where scripture ever makes this connection? The little horn, the man of sin and the son of perdition are never referred to by scripture as the antichrist. This is a manufactured eschatology that has absolutely no biblical support.

 

[oldhermit]

I thought I already did that in the [small-sized] individual posts I put throughout these two related threads of yours... many of which posts you "Liked" (and apparently grasped).


It was just these latest ones where you changed from agreeing to disagreeing regarding my pointing out the parallel wording between Rev20:4b and that of Rev2:8, that we've apparently run into a bit of a snag... No worries, it'll all work out, I trust... = )

Giving a thumbs up does not necessarily mean I am agreeing with you. It is simply an acknowledgement that I have read your post.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm unclear about 2 John 1:7 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_john/1-7.htm in that you stressed that,,,, "this is the deceiver and the antichrist"... Do you view the "man of lawlessness" and "the antichrist" as the same and that the prophecies concerning the man of lawlessness in 2 Thess. 2:4 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm were fulfilled at that time?

I hope to be back later tonight...

...in the meantime, you may recall my pointing out the parallels concerning "the BEGINNING, the MIDDLE, the END" shown in the various related passages (Rev... 2Th2... Dan9... Olivet Discourse... etc)... showing the "connections" in each, where each [related passage/section totals the "7-yr period" [as opposed to merely 3.5 yrs] (IOW, the 2Th2:4 "sitteth" comes 3.5 yrs after the "whose COMING [/advent / presence / parousia]" of the man of sin, per 2Th2:9a,8a... 2Th2 is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS, just as these other related Books/passages are doing in THEIR own presentation of [the SAME] "BEGINNING / MIDDLE / END")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Giving a thumbs up does not necessarily mean I am agreeing with you. It is simply an acknowledgement that I have read your post.

Okay... so others in this thread [and your other thread] did not receive your same "thumbs up"... are we to assume you've simply not yet read their posts, but when you do you'll acknowledge by providing a "thumbs up" to their posts as well (whether you agree with them, or not)?? [hmm... sounds reasonable ]