"Rightly Dividing" 2 Timothy 2:15

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posthuman

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In the old testament, they had to live by their faith . After the resurrection it s " live by Jesus, s faith. '
you seem to be saying Paul is quoting Habakkuk because Paul thinks what Habakkuk said might have been true once but is false now. so you have Paul citing Habakkuk as a reference to prove that what Habakkuk said is wrong.

is that right?
seems to me that if Paul felt his own message to be "divided" from the testimony of God through Habakkuk, that Paul would be totally leaving Habakkuk out of this instead of quoting him like he's evidence of this gospel being God's plan from the beginning.

perhaps "divide" is not the right word?
 

posthuman

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Romans 1:17

“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith : as it is written, The just shall live by faith

Habb 2.4
4Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him : but the just shall live by his faith.

Gal 3 .11
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them .

13¶Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith

.
uh huh.

note that Habakkuk doesn't say the just shall live by (his) works.
 

throughfaith

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was your point that you think Paul was changing what Habakkuk said?

do you think Paul is deliberately misquoting him because Paul thinks the prophet's testimony has been 'divided' from some new truth?

is Paul abrogating scripture, in your opinion, or is Paul citing the word spoken by Habakkuk as authoritatively true and directly relevant & identical to the gospel he is preaching?
I guess you also missed Paul's usage of words in Romans 10 ?

5¶For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;........

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.



Deut 30 .
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11¶For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and DO IT ?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and DO IT ?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest DO IT .
 

posthuman

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I guess you also missed Paul's usage of words in Romans 10 ?

5¶For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;........

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.



Deut 30 .
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11¶For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and DO IT ?

13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and DO IT ?

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest DO IT .
no, i just think it's clear that God, through Habakkuk, was not talking about the Law when He says this thing about life through faith.

who is the one that boasts? "behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him"
remember Jesus saying something about washing the outside of the cup?
but
the righteous.. ;)
 

throughfaith

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no, i just think it's clear that God, through Habakkuk, was not talking about the Law when He says this thing about life through faith.

who is the one that boasts? "behold the proud, his soul is not upright in him"
remember Jesus saying something about washing the outside of the cup?
but
the righteous.. ;)
WHEN did Jesus say that ? did you notice ? does it matter ? Is all scripture Just one message?
 

posthuman

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No he had to live by his faith ,as it says .
so obviously Habakkuk isn't talking about life or righteousness through the law.
so Paul is correctly handling Habakkuk, not changing it or acting like there's a division between the gospel and the prophets.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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I think that's where you go wrong... you actually and literally ''divide'' God's word.. an example would be - you say Paul has a different Gospel than Jesus, that is wrongful dividing..

Where as those who say there is only one good news. Paul actually quotes the OT beautifully here : but the righteous shall live by his faith (Habbakuk 2:4 b); “The righteous shall live by faith." (Gal 3:11b). This is rightfully dividing.

I understand what the Kjv is saying here, evidently you don't - you believe you need to literally divide God's word. Where as most Christians believe the statement ''rightly handling the word of truth' . (which is what the Kjv actually means by ''rightly dividing).
On this verse I think the KJV translators did fine translating the Greek to Early Modern English.
The modern translators also succeeded.
The only real problem lies with some people applying modern definitions to the earlier English.
If ideas are built on a misunderstanding of the language, the ideas are likely to be wrong.
It's actually misrepresenting the KJV

The Greeks understood the sentence. The Jacobians understood it & Modern English Bible readers understand it.
I consider it a blessing that we have so much textual information available to us.
I thought posthuman took us on a nice deep-dive word study. It's a shame it went off track.
 

posthuman

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Is all scripture Just one message?
yes.
John 5:39


haven't you been paying attention to what the Bible says?
all the law and the prophets give witness to Christ, that He would be born, give His life, and rise again.


it's not a 'different gospel' just because a veil covered your heart and you didn't see it.
was Israel brought out of Egypt because of their works?? but they were given a law of works because they cursed their Saviour and called Him a murderer. He gave them sabbath & manna to prove them and they proved unfaithful - as if we didn't already know because of what they did at the Sea of Reeds and at Meribah. you may be well served to go back and read Exodus again
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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WHEN did Jesus say that ? did you notice ? does it matter ? Is all scripture Just one message?
Scripture is a unified whole, yes. That is how we know it is from God.

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2 Tim 3)
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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A thought on the modern translations on this verse . Why would such an obvious statement need to be made . If it really is saying such wishy washy things such as " who correctly explains the word of truth." ..? This is just too obvious to be a correct translation.
When you rightly divide, you are then able to correctly explain.

We see the fruit of those wrongfully dividing the Word of Truth.
 

throughfaith

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Scripture is a unified whole, yes. That is how we know it is from God.

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2 Tim 3)
Yes all 66 books are from God . check ✔. That doesn't say ' all scripture is saying exactly the same thing in every verse .
 

posthuman

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it seems to me that what the dispensationalists are describing when they talk about how to interpret the Bible is not "division" of scripture but "correct understanding/handling" of scripture. which is pretty much what my OP says, that "rightly divide" does not mean that scripture is divvied up into 'things written to us' and 'things not written to us' and we're supposed to figure out what to bypass as interesting but not really appropriate, and what to pay attention to -- it's all written to us, we just need to understand its intent in being written to us is to teach us the gospel, which is a Person, our Saviour. we're to pay attention to all of it and to pay attention to how it's adding to our knowledge of who God is & what God does, how He saves and what/who His Salvation is.

the Bible doesn't say, "let him who reads this build an ark" -- it says God told Noah to build an ark. so pointing at that and saying 'well you're not supposed to build an ark, therefore the scripture is divided' is nonsense to me. but God telling Noah to build an ark is a picture of Christ. that's the whole reason that God telling Noah to build an ark is in the Bible. to teach us about Christ, God the only Saviour.


handling scripture rightly is to keep the edge of the Word of God straight with the testimony of the Spirit of God, is that not so?
and the Spirit does not lie, and the Spirit does not say one thing and then contradict it later.
 

posthuman

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That doesn't say ' all scripture is saying exactly the same thing in every verse
all scripture testifies of Christ. that's how we know it's scripture.
whether it teaches us of Christ or not tells us whether we're understanding it correctly or not.


this is how the Bereans were able to look at the law and the prophets and determine that the gospel they were hearing was true rather than antithetical to what was written. they weren't looking at scripture in order to find a division in it, but a harmony, and they saw that the coming of the Messiah was the unveiling of what they were reading. they did not believe the gospel because they found it contrary to the law & prophets but because the understood it to be the whole point of the law & the prophets, "the end of the law for righteousness" where "end" here is a word meaning "destination"
 

throughfaith

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yes.
John 5:39


haven't you been paying attention to what the Bible says?
all the law and the prophets give witness to Christ, that He would be born, give His life, and rise again.


it's not a 'different gospel' just because a veil covered your heart and you didn't see it.
was Israel brought out of Egypt because of their works?? but they were given a law of works because they cursed their Saviour and called Him a murderer. He gave them sabbath & manna to prove them and they proved unfaithful - as if we didn't already know because of what they did at the Sea of Reeds and at Meribah. you may be well served to go back and read Exodus again
Ok . John 5
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They TESTIFY of Jesus. Jesus was who he said he was . He literally fulfilled all those prophecies ect . They would have recognised the Son if they had truly been following the Father . what they were ' looking forward ' to was .
Acts 1.6

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

They were not understanding of the programme other than this until later. In fact it took Peter another 10 years to see the gentiles be included and then we see the ' mystery ' of the Jew / gentile, one body ' . Try preaching luke 9.6 gospel today and see how far you get .
 

throughfaith

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it seems to me that what the dispensationalists are describing when they talk about how to interpret the Bible is not "division" of scripture but "correct understanding/handling" of scripture. which is pretty much what my OP says, that "rightly divide" does not mean that scripture is divvied up into 'things written to us' and 'things not written to us' and we're supposed to figure out what to bypass as interesting but not really appropriate, and what to pay attention to -- it's all written to us, we just need to understand its intent in being written to us is to teach us the gospel, which is a Person, our Saviour. we're to pay attention to all of it and to pay attention to how it's adding to our knowledge of who God is & what God does, how He saves and what/who His Salvation is.

the Bible doesn't say, "let him who reads this build an ark" -- it says God told Noah to build an ark. so pointing at that and saying 'well you're not supposed to build an ark, therefore the scripture is divided' is nonsense to me. but God telling Noah to build an ark is a picture of Christ. that's the whole reason that God telling Noah to build an ark is in the Bible. to teach us about Christ, God the only Saviour.

handling scripture rightly is to keep the edge of the Word of God straight with the testimony of the Spirit of God, is that not so?
and the Spirit does not lie, and the Spirit does not say one thing and then contradict it later.
This may take a while to sink in ...There is a disconnect between what were saying and how your hearing it explained .
 

posthuman

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Ok . John 5
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They TESTIFY of Jesus. Jesus was who he said he was . He literally fulfilled all those prophecies ect . They would have recognised the Son if they had truly been following the Father . what they were ' looking forward ' to was .
Acts 1.6

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

They were not understanding of the programme other than this until later. In fact it took Peter another 10 years to see the gentiles be included and then we see the ' mystery ' of the Jew / gentile, one body ' . Try preaching luke 9.6 gospel today and see how far you get .
whether any particular person understands something at any particular time does not make it a different thing just because at some other time they did not understand it.

the truth doesn't depend on you comprehending the truth. the truth stands on its own. it doesn't change as your understanding changes.
 

posthuman

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This may take a while to sink in ...
"to this day a veil is still over their hearts whenever Moses is read"

so what would be seen in Moses if the veil was lifted? a different gospel?

what if a veil is over your own heart when you read Luke.

"make straight the way"
 

posthuman

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There is a disconnect between what were saying and how your hearing it explained .
i suspect it's because "divide" is not the best way to describe what we're supposed to do with scripture.
but you keep using it, because, kjv.
 

throughfaith

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all scripture testifies of Christ. that's how we know it's scripture.
whether it teaches us of Christ or not tells us whether we're understanding it correctly or not.


this is how the Bereans were able to look at the law and the prophets and determine that the gospel they were hearing was true rather than antithetical to what was written. they weren't looking at scripture in order to find a division in it, but a harmony, and they saw that the coming of the Messiah was the unveiling of what they were reading. they did not believe the gospel because they found it contrary to the law & prophets but because the understood it to be the whole point of the law & the prophets, "the end of the law for righteousness" where "end" here is a word meaning "destination"
Notice Acts 17 is After luke 9.6 . Its after the death ,burial and resurrection. Its after the giving of the Holy Spirit, its many years after Acts 2 . Its after Paul's conversion and the revelation revealed to Paul ( mysteries ect) . And its Paul speaking to them .
10¶And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Yet another ironic example you give to further prove my point . Not rightly dividing.