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Y
You made a blanket statement about how christians live, think, and pray concerning matters of life and issues in this world. You didn't want biblical examples; you want worldly examples to define Romans 13; Set your own life in proper order, and be an example for Christ, instead of condemning the people of this world. Jesus did not come to condemn. He came to save a lost people. So if you're going to use Romans 13, you are going to have to raise the bar, rather than lowering it. By the way, that's an Old Testament witness of a battle that takes place in a man, and among men.
C
I want to know why Romans 13 does not remain true in the other examples given!
I want to know in such an event as war at what point are resistors defying God.., in the event of decisive victory?
Do help me with this one if you can actually answer a straight question
I am not condemning anyone., I am simply venting frustration at double standards, hypocrisy and inconsistencies. Meanwhile you are unable to discuss the virtues of the topic and continue your onslaught of argumentum ad hominem which we can start a personal thread and throw stones at each other all day if you like.., meanwhile you continually attempt to threadjack this one!!
I want to know in such an event as war at what point are resistors defying God.., in the event of decisive victory?
Do help me with this one if you can actually answer a straight question
I am not condemning anyone., I am simply venting frustration at double standards, hypocrisy and inconsistencies. Meanwhile you are unable to discuss the virtues of the topic and continue your onslaught of argumentum ad hominem which we can start a personal thread and throw stones at each other all day if you like.., meanwhile you continually attempt to threadjack this one!!
Y
You asked a question that concerned how OTHERS thought about Romans 13. Then YOU started throwing stones because you did not like the answers YOU asked for. In the very beginning I answered your question concerning the workings of Government in both literal and figurative language. This is only one facet of understanding. The answers I give do not answer all things. You couldn't have considered this more than a second. Every answer you've been given up to this point is valid. Others have answered your questions, and these do not answer all things. There is nothing wrong with the struggle you are experiencing. The longer you wrestle with it, the stronger the understanding. Again, you play the victim. Rather than consider what is being said, you fall back on 'old reliable' by saying someone is high jacking your thread. That reply is so weak, no wonder your having a difficult time; you don't want to hear what others say, you want to put your own words in their mouth. Why did you even bother asking the question in the first place if you don't want to hear what others have to say....
C
I bothered asking because there is an overwhelming number of Christians spouting Romans 13 to push their political ideologies on other then accusing someone of not being christian if they dont hate Muslims.., apparently your not a christian if you dont get a rush of joy everytime you here of another muslim town being bombed. Apparently your not a christian unless your Pro America and have nothing but hate and disdain for Russia and China. Apparently if you dont support greed lust and covetousness your not a christian. Oh did I mention imperialism? Zionism?
Apparently all the wealth of this world belongs to Western and European countries., and any attempts by any other country to live a fruitful life will be smite by economical assassination or worse., plain ol rape and pillage. And if I dont show a voice of support for this my christianity is in question
Apparently., the ability to destroy and plunder is a God given ability to be exploited anytime by anglo-saxon countries because it has been given then by God or some other fanatical reply I've grown accustomed too.
And if I have the gall or the audacity to speak out against this then Im just not Christian right?
Apparently all the wealth of this world belongs to Western and European countries., and any attempts by any other country to live a fruitful life will be smite by economical assassination or worse., plain ol rape and pillage. And if I dont show a voice of support for this my christianity is in question
Apparently., the ability to destroy and plunder is a God given ability to be exploited anytime by anglo-saxon countries because it has been given then by God or some other fanatical reply I've grown accustomed too.
And if I have the gall or the audacity to speak out against this then Im just not Christian right?
Y
Matthew 8:9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
Luke 3:14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?” So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”
Matthew 26 Then they spat in His face and beat Him; and others struck Him with the palms of their hands, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, Christ! Who is the one who struck You?”
Y
Once again you cannot resist making blanket statements about christians... which means you are coming up short of Truth "Apparently"
What country, what religion, what government are you going to profess as "The Way"
Is the Kingdom of Heaven within you, or are the ways of the world within you? What do you call yourself?
It can't be christian; you already have made blanket statements about christians, as if you are somehow different. "Apparently"
Who is pushing political and religious ideologies by using Romans 13? It's your thread "Apparently"
C
There we go again with 'well you're not christian' again
So lemme get this right.., Christian soldiers in the US army bombing Christians in Russia would be justifiable when we all one day stand in judgement in the kingdom of Israel?
Brother against Brother as prophesied.., each with their own spin on scripture to support their nationalistic pride.
I wonder how one maintains love for his enemy while making the squeeze
So lemme get this right.., Christian soldiers in the US army bombing Christians in Russia would be justifiable when we all one day stand in judgement in the kingdom of Israel?
Brother against Brother as prophesied.., each with their own spin on scripture to support their nationalistic pride.
I wonder how one maintains love for his enemy while making the squeeze
A
hmmm I'll comment on the scriptures and what I think they mean when I read them....
anyways I always thought authority referred to these verses...
Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
anyways I always thought authority referred to these verses...
Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
C
R
to my understanding of scripture at this point. there are 7 levels of Authority.
(1) The Spirit of God;
(2) The Word of God;
(3) The Conscience;
(4) Spiritual Authority;
(It's important to see that human authority never transcends the Spirit, the Word or our conscience. Nevertheless, neither the world nor the church can function without human authority. The Parents in the home, the Boss on the job, the Husband in the marriage and the Pastor in the local church all represent human authority, authorized by God.)
(5) Functional Authority
This level of authority assumes power based on situational needs or special circumstances. I may, the boss on a job. But if someone has a heart attack and falls on the floor, believe me, I'm going to yield my position to the Doctor in the house! We give authority to people based on circumstantial needs.
(6) The Peace of God
While this level of authority is very similar to the "conscience", it is not the same. Sometimes, my conscience may not stop from me from submitting to human or spiritual authority, but a lack of peace might.
"And the peace of God,
which surpasses all understanding,
will guard your hearts and minds."
Philippians 13:15
This is a tremendous verse about spiritual guidance. The word "guard" in the NAS Bible is rendered "rule" in KJV, NIV and NKJV. "Guard" means "keep" and "rule" speaks of "government". Both are correct. But the Greek term means "to arbitrate or govern", so I think "rule" is best. My Pastor may ask me to do something or suggest a course of action. Something may not contradict the Word, grieve the Spirit or bother my conscience, but if I don't have "peace" about the matter, I better not do it. Paul says this "peace" of God "surpasses all understanding". That means my peace, or the lack of it, ought to rule me even over my understanding of the matter.
(7) Civil Law, Custom or Tradition
Romans 13 is speaking of this level of authourity. The whole chapter is about submitting to the authority of the state as a "minister of God" for good. Also, certain cultures or traditions may dictate how we ought to behave in certain circumstances. So we ought to obey all these authorities, as long as they do not violate the first three authorities (the Word, the Spirit, the Conscience).
so if all this is so biblically clear, where does our walk of Christ dwelling in his kingdom under his authority get twisted?
There is a great deal of confusion over the subject of Spiritual Authority because people tend to confuse natural authority and spiritual authority.
Natural authority is the power (or authority) people have over others. People tend to exploit the areas of their lives that contribute to their sense of power.
Natural authority has to do with intimidation, which then translates into power and control over others. You will find this true throughout all nature. Packs of animals have dominant leaders. They are usually the ones that are the most intimidating. Phrases like “the pecking order” or “the king of the jungle” come from the idea of natural authority. Likewise, men of stature, with deep voices and strong personalities, convey a sense of power. People who have large expensive homes and cars, and toys like yachts and planes naturally intimidate those who do not own such things. People with jobs in politics, upper management, the IRS, police departments, and pastoral ministries carry a sense of intimidation. Natural authority is all about the exertion of power and control over others.
Much of the Christian teaching on the subject of spiritual authority attempts to reconcile natural authority to the spiritual realm. But it just doesn’t work. It tends to create totalitarianism. It is responsible for the traditional thinking that spiritual authority is 1) a position held that is governing and controlling others and 2) measured by quantity (i.e., the number of people over whom they have power, the size of the corporation they manage, their income level, etc.). But this is nothing more than natural authority renamed. It is not true spiritual authority.
Spiritual authority is the authority of the Holy Spirit that He brings into our lives. It is spiritual authority.
John 18:36 KJV
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus explains that His kingdom – that over which He reigns – is not part of the kingdoms of this world. He told His disciples, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21).” Christ’s kingdom, to which He brought His authority, is in our hearts. We Christians have the unique power to lay down our lives. We have power to overcome temptation and to deny ourselves of sin. We have the power to love one another as He has loved us. This is the greatest power that anyone can possess. It is NOT the power to rule over others (as if His “kingdom were of this world”) but to rule one’s self. True spiritual authority is the authority over self. The best description of spiritual authority comes from none other than the Lord:
Matthew 5:38-44 KJV
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
This is the greatest power! No conqueror who ever lived, no warrior who ever fought, and no king who ever reigned has had the power to rule the heart. Natural authority may have power to control others, but only the spiritual authority of God’s Spirit can control our hearts. Spiritual authority grows, not in having a church, but in laying down your life for others. In this context, an elderly widow who seeks only to serve others may have more spiritual authority than any other person in her church.
True spiritual authority is foundational. Consider the following scripture:
1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Revelation 21:14 KJV
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Here we find ministry as supporting, or foundational to, believers. Most ministers have confused spiritual authority with natural authority and have come to see their ministries at the top of their churches. When ministry is at the top of the church, it becomes sovereign. True ministry is foundational.
watchman nee spiritual authority. Ron swartz (with his permission) and the bible
(1) The Spirit of God;
(2) The Word of God;
(3) The Conscience;
(4) Spiritual Authority;
(It's important to see that human authority never transcends the Spirit, the Word or our conscience. Nevertheless, neither the world nor the church can function without human authority. The Parents in the home, the Boss on the job, the Husband in the marriage and the Pastor in the local church all represent human authority, authorized by God.)
(5) Functional Authority
This level of authority assumes power based on situational needs or special circumstances. I may, the boss on a job. But if someone has a heart attack and falls on the floor, believe me, I'm going to yield my position to the Doctor in the house! We give authority to people based on circumstantial needs.
(6) The Peace of God
While this level of authority is very similar to the "conscience", it is not the same. Sometimes, my conscience may not stop from me from submitting to human or spiritual authority, but a lack of peace might.
"And the peace of God,
which surpasses all understanding,
will guard your hearts and minds."
Philippians 13:15
This is a tremendous verse about spiritual guidance. The word "guard" in the NAS Bible is rendered "rule" in KJV, NIV and NKJV. "Guard" means "keep" and "rule" speaks of "government". Both are correct. But the Greek term means "to arbitrate or govern", so I think "rule" is best. My Pastor may ask me to do something or suggest a course of action. Something may not contradict the Word, grieve the Spirit or bother my conscience, but if I don't have "peace" about the matter, I better not do it. Paul says this "peace" of God "surpasses all understanding". That means my peace, or the lack of it, ought to rule me even over my understanding of the matter.
(7) Civil Law, Custom or Tradition
Romans 13 is speaking of this level of authourity. The whole chapter is about submitting to the authority of the state as a "minister of God" for good. Also, certain cultures or traditions may dictate how we ought to behave in certain circumstances. So we ought to obey all these authorities, as long as they do not violate the first three authorities (the Word, the Spirit, the Conscience).
so if all this is so biblically clear, where does our walk of Christ dwelling in his kingdom under his authority get twisted?
There is a great deal of confusion over the subject of Spiritual Authority because people tend to confuse natural authority and spiritual authority.
Natural authority is the power (or authority) people have over others. People tend to exploit the areas of their lives that contribute to their sense of power.
Natural authority has to do with intimidation, which then translates into power and control over others. You will find this true throughout all nature. Packs of animals have dominant leaders. They are usually the ones that are the most intimidating. Phrases like “the pecking order” or “the king of the jungle” come from the idea of natural authority. Likewise, men of stature, with deep voices and strong personalities, convey a sense of power. People who have large expensive homes and cars, and toys like yachts and planes naturally intimidate those who do not own such things. People with jobs in politics, upper management, the IRS, police departments, and pastoral ministries carry a sense of intimidation. Natural authority is all about the exertion of power and control over others.
Much of the Christian teaching on the subject of spiritual authority attempts to reconcile natural authority to the spiritual realm. But it just doesn’t work. It tends to create totalitarianism. It is responsible for the traditional thinking that spiritual authority is 1) a position held that is governing and controlling others and 2) measured by quantity (i.e., the number of people over whom they have power, the size of the corporation they manage, their income level, etc.). But this is nothing more than natural authority renamed. It is not true spiritual authority.
Spiritual authority is the authority of the Holy Spirit that He brings into our lives. It is spiritual authority.
John 18:36 KJV
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus explains that His kingdom – that over which He reigns – is not part of the kingdoms of this world. He told His disciples, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21).” Christ’s kingdom, to which He brought His authority, is in our hearts. We Christians have the unique power to lay down our lives. We have power to overcome temptation and to deny ourselves of sin. We have the power to love one another as He has loved us. This is the greatest power that anyone can possess. It is NOT the power to rule over others (as if His “kingdom were of this world”) but to rule one’s self. True spiritual authority is the authority over self. The best description of spiritual authority comes from none other than the Lord:
Matthew 5:38-44 KJV
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.
This is the greatest power! No conqueror who ever lived, no warrior who ever fought, and no king who ever reigned has had the power to rule the heart. Natural authority may have power to control others, but only the spiritual authority of God’s Spirit can control our hearts. Spiritual authority grows, not in having a church, but in laying down your life for others. In this context, an elderly widow who seeks only to serve others may have more spiritual authority than any other person in her church.
True spiritual authority is foundational. Consider the following scripture:
1 Corinthians 3:10 KJV
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Revelation 21:14 KJV
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Here we find ministry as supporting, or foundational to, believers. Most ministers have confused spiritual authority with natural authority and have come to see their ministries at the top of their churches. When ministry is at the top of the church, it becomes sovereign. True ministry is foundational.
watchman nee spiritual authority. Ron swartz (with his permission) and the bible