Romans 8:1-2, is conditional

[PeterJens]

This is what I am talking about. Your emphasis is always on self or another person.

And very rarely on Christ.

The love of Christ never fails,never. If the believer thinks that His love can fail, and He will take His gift of eternal life away........That believer has not "unlocked" the Love of Christ.

Christs love unlocks love in our hearts. Is this idea too difficult for you to understand.
We live fighting, defended, hurt, proving ourselves, trying to stand strong.

Jesus says I accept you, I love you, there is nothing you have to prove, just accept
my love. That changes you inside, and the love and hurt you defended you do not
need to defend anymore, because Christ has set this love free. No man can truly
hurt you anymore.

But if these words sound strange, then this has not happened to you.
Christs love is what spoke to me from a child, His understanding, His power and
strength. It is this which He planted through His word in my soul.

The cross was the demonstration of the power of Gods love, it drove Him to the
cross to save us. It is the power of salvation. This is all about Christ and who
he is and how it works in the believer.

But this perspective is obviously foolishness to you, but I can but share my
experience of Christ. It is Christ who unlocks love within us.
So I ask again, has Christ unlocked love in your heart?

I think the answer is no. It is not a trick question, or a test.
You say you are not religious, but what you describe to me is religion without
love.

 

[PeterJens]

This is what I am talking about. Your emphasis is always on self or another person.

And very rarely on Christ.

The love of Christ never fails,never. If the believer thinks that His love can fail, and He will take His gift of eternal life away........That believer has not "unlocked" the Love of Christ.

I think I understand what you are saying. If I trust Christ because of His love, but think
God could remove this love, I have not believed in it.

But salvation is responding to the love, that is eternal life. If you do not respond to love,
and show love, you have neither eternal life or love set free and are denying salvation itself.

And once you see love is the key, the issue, the reason why we are lost and the reason why
we are saved, why would you walk away? Realising Jesus is the source of life is the reality,
but if you stop and die inside, you are dead. Part of accepting this is the spiritual reality and
the need to walk is also accepting what darkness actually is. The two go together.
It is not rocket science. We need air to breath, without air we die.
We need Christ to live, without Christ we die.

 

[garee]

Christs love unlocks love in our hearts. Is this idea too difficult for you to understand.
We live fighting, defended, hurt, proving ourselves, trying to stand strong.

Jesus says I accept you, I love you, there is nothing you have to prove, just accept
my love. That changes you inside, and the love and hurt you defended you do not
need to defend anymore, because Christ has set this love free. No man can truly
hurt you anymore.

But if these words sound strange, then this has not happened to you.
Christs love is what spoke to me from a child, His understanding, His power and
strength. It is this which He planted through His word in my soul.

The cross was the demonstration of the power of Gods love, it drove Him to the
cross to save us. It is the power of salvation. This is all about Christ and who
he is and how it works in the believer.

But this perspective is obviously foolishness to you, but I can but share my
experience of Christ. It is Christ who unlocks love within us.
So I ask again, has Christ unlocked love in your heart?

I think the answer is no. It is not a trick question, or a test.
You say you are not religious, but what you describe to me is religion without
love.

What is your understanding of; "Christs love unlocks love in our hearts"? How and whose love as a work does it unlock it ?

 

[PeterJens]

What is your understanding of; "Christs love unlocks love in our hearts"? How and whose love as a work does it unlock it ?

We are all born in love and have love in our hearts. As we grow we lock this love
away and become more and more hard hearted and disfunctional.

We empathise with Christ because what he stands for is what we desperately need.
But the problem with love is we have to take a real risk. We have to trust the other
party, and something this funadmental, really trust.

What bigger gift of love is the cross than can be? What a bigger statement that you
can trust God in this confused, crazy hurt world, with pain, betrayal, tragedy etc.

But we have to open the door and take the risk, make the step of faith and ask
and accept. This is openning up, the first step.

Unlocking our hearts starts with forgiving those who have truly hurt us.
Now it is knowing the love of Christ, seeing it, dwelling in it, that this starts to
make it possible. The Holy Spirit anoints us and encourages us to take the
small steps and slowly see what is going on.

So when doing things together, it is both Christ and ourselves, but in truth
it is us who are yoked to Him.

I talk about things that over many years happened to me. It is hard on the inside
to say what is going on, just things change, and you find yourself somewhere else.

The first thing was my fear of my father who I did not really know. It was knowing
how to relate to authority figures and empathise with decision making.

But the effect is very real.

 

[ladylynn]

Those "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is descriptive language of those who are in Christ. ​Believers walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit not in order to get in Christ, but because they are in Christ.

Amen mailmandan!!! This is so very important a distinction that has to be made if we are to rightly understand the meaning of these verses. Just like those who are the overcomers in the Bible are those who are IN Christ Jesus., who believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For whatever is [SUP][a][/SUP]born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


It's not the work "we" have done that causes us to be overcomers., it is ALWAYS the work that Jesus Christ has done that causes us to be overcomers.

This mindset is the key to opening so many truths in the Bible imo. It ALWAYS comes back to who we are IN CHRIST. It is always because of Jesus and what HE has done.,not what we do. Believers have been brought OUT of the place of sin and death and have been brought INTO the place of eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.

We are now IN the Beloved. We are NOW sheep of HIS pasture. We are now sons and daughters who are now allowed to legally call God our Abba Father.
It's LEGAL because Jesus paid the impossible price for our redemption and adoption. It's not legal because of any meager works we could possibly do. no no never.

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but because of Jesus works alone...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit,



That is why Romans 8:1-2 is unconditional. There is therefore NOW and forever NO condemnation to
those who are IN Christ Jesus.....

Deliverance from Bondage

8 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life [SUP][a][/SUP]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

 

[miknik5]

The problem I find with cc is short statements often lead to miss-understanding.
When I first came here I defended someone who was being attacked for something which
I thought was actually a balanced position and I was accused of being a legalist.

After a long discussion, they admitted I was not. It is always hard in the middle ground.
Like I am partly calvanist and partly armenian. Like I believe we are chosen yet we can
choose to walk away.

Now for those with a superficial understanding of the complexities, it is just a single stop
shop. That is why I look for a debate, putting the arguments from both sides, because
over time I actually grow in faith and knowledge. cc has taught me a lot, lol, even bdf...

Me me me....
no one wants to look at you
no one needs to base the validity of their faith IN CHRIST by you and what you do

so you understand thst?

 

[miknik5]

miknik - You do not like the idea of "friends", sharing how you are getting on,
good or bad, and what is happening in your life.

That is fine. But that is all this conversation is about.
I am just saying Jesus calls us to be open, you are saying that is wrong.
End of story my friend. I accept your rejection, I was just giving you an opportunity
to share, that is all.

Nope. That is not what this thread and topic are at all

it is about the truth that the "righteous" shall live by faith
and yet those declared "righteous" won't be declaring THEMSELVES "righteous" (by their own works) at all

 

[miknik5]

My friend I intend you no harm.
It is you who said everything I was sharing was of the "flesh".
Biblical translation of this is carnal, evil, sexual immorality, lust, greed, murder, envy etc.

If all of life and social interaction is this, society is a very evil place, but I know most interaction
is not this at all, but often people empathising and caring for each other in one way or another.

As I said before, this language is typical of social issues and nothing to do with faith.

I grew up in a family with relating social issues, and have many relatives with social disabilities
in various areas, some under permanent medication, so I know a lot about this area.

But finding a safe place to share and be relaxed can be very hard to find, as many simply do
not appreciate the strengths and weaknesses we all live with.

God bless you, however you work things out, the Lord is Good.

you forgot the other understanding of flesh and carnal men sir which Paul (you know Paul? the one according to you that I follow) understood from those whose eyes were on men as of men were somehow anything!

i mean who is Paul anyway?

can a man be baptized into Paul?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The definition is correct but the exegesis (interpretation) is so wrong. confession is the exact opposite of what you are sayings. Yes homologeō means to say the same thing as another(God). The question is, what is God saying or what has God been saying through His Son? What has God been saying through the Cross of Christ; What has God been saying concerning humanity, when we look at the cross? what has God been saying in regards to what He has done with our sins at the cross? God said at the cross "TETELESTIAL" ; IT IS FINISHED!!!! THE OLD(the Law) IS GONE AND THE NEW ( the new creation in Christ)HAS COME!!! when we say the exact same things that God says regarding the perfect work of Jesus Christ, then we are "homoologeoing" Together with God!!

Did you read 1 John 1:9? Is that what 1 John 1:9 says?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


It says "confess" (homologeō) "our sins" (Greek hamartia – to miss the mark).

 

[ladylynn]

Patently false gospel.

Jesus never told us we would be physically whole, or prosperous, (remember the advice to the young ruler?).... why was the apostle Paul not healed of his affliction? Not enough faith?

In fact, we are told that if we follow Jesus, we should EXPECT trials and persecutions...

You are spreading the false doctrine of "prosperity"... trying to BRIBE people into following Jesus.

3 John 2

[SUP]
2 [/SUP]Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as [I know] your soul keeps well and prospers.


Psalms 35:27

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Let those who favor my righteous cause and have pleasure in my uprightness shout for joy and be glad and say continually, Let the Lord be magnified, Who takes pleasure in the prosperity of His servant.




I think it comes down to seeing how gracious God has dealt with us that would cause us to say He wants us to be prosperous. I can find hundreds of verses that talk about the grace and prosperity of God's people but mostly it's my daily observation and new understanding of grace that brings me to this conclusion of prosperity and blessing without a doubt. "Grace teaches" us so many things just as the Bible says it will.

Titus 2:12-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP]It has trained us to reject and renounce all ungodliness (irreligion) and worldly (passionate) desires, to live discreet (temperate, self-controlled), upright, devout (spiritually whole) lives in this present world,
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One),




It is a generous and good Abba Father we have who takes care of us so massively. We are filled to over flowing with all He gives us in Christ. He not only blesses us with allll spiritual blessings but those blessings over flow into the natural of my life too. How can they not?? That is the nature of being blessed by God. It's always more than we asked or could have imagined.

I have found that God does not afflict His people with sickness and death. He sent Jesus His Son to defeat those horrors., why would He bring them about again by His own hand when His Son died to overcome them? no no He would not nor could He.

Sickness and death are all parts of being here on planet earth where sin still goes on and satan is still hanging out here afflicting and condemning, killing and destroying anything that is good. he is the one who steals kills and destroys.

Paul had a bunch of religious Jews following him around that became a thorn in his side. This was an "affliction" that satan brought upon him, not God. But the Lord promised Paul that HIS grace would be sufficient in this matter. (Just like grace is sufficient for us today)

I realize it's because I come from a grace perspective that I see the Lord this way. I believe that is what grace has taught me., to see things according to the multitude of grace that Paul always prayed for the believers to have. He is the God of all grace. He gives grace to the humble. He giveth more grace and more grace. We are stewards of the "manifold" grace of God.

Many of us are not "stewards" of the manifold grace of God because we have not been taught to look at things from a grace perspective. But truly everything we have is because of the unmerited unearned undeserving love of God IN Christ. (grace) So everything we have or become is because of the love/grace of God in Christ Jesus. As soon as believers start to see the truth about God's grace in Christ for their lives, everything changes and they begin to learn about His blessings. How He blessings us NOT according to what we deserve (just like everything we have or will have) but according to His love and grace. That great love in which He loves us. Gal.1:6


[SUP]6 [/SUP]I am surprised and astonished that you are so quickly [SUP][a][/SUP]turning renegade and deserting Him Who invited and called you [SUP][b][/SUP]by the grace (unmerited favor) of Christ (the Messiah) [and that you are transferring your allegiance] to a different [even an opposition] gospel.


This verse is interesting how he describes turning renegade and deserting Him who invited and called you by the grace and turning to religion and back to the law. I believe that is why we don't see healing and prosperity in our churches or around our lives. We have not been taught the gospel as it was first presented to Paul. Paul fought these religious Jews constantly. Is it any wonder he prayed that the Lord would deliver him from such pains in his back side???

I feel the same way when the grace and truth that Jesus brought is preached and taught by so many and the religious of the groups come and distort the truth with mans addiction to "religion" Man has an addiction to doing things himself. Man is addicted to being strong and 'manning up' and not leaning on anything or anyone. Seriously., man even hates to ask for directions while driving. (not all but it's a human trait many of us have) We don't like asking ANYONE FOR ANYTHING.

Is it any wonder "grace" is not preached and religion is???

 

[PeterJens]

Me me me....
no one wants to look at you
no one needs to base the validity of their faith IN CHRIST by you and what you do

so you understand thst?

I am sharing how people react to certain positions of faith, which you are doing right now.
Whatever you share it will always be something you are sharing so you are involved.
To ignore this is to ignore having a conversation or communication itself.

So the negative approach you are giving does not make any sense.
I am not validating or saying anyone has to do anything. I am sharing a perspective,
an experience. It sounds like your God filter is set to bible verses only.

That is very limiting. Is this how you shop for food, or do your work, or get your
gas at the gas station, lol ?

So you appear to be trying to put me in a straight jacked about what I can express
or share, which unfortunately for you makes no sense. But then that for me sums
up this interaction. But then this is the internet and a forum ...

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe there is a problem here.
Too complex a set of ideas.

Condemnation is complex. In an biblical sense this is condemnation from God in terms of
judgement.

But as the verses I quoted above, it appears if we walk correctly there is no condemnation,
but if we do not, judgement will come.

If we know what the light is and have chosen to walk in it, is we freely choose to walk in
the darkness and do harm surely we are bring judgement on ourselves, for we claim to be
able to see and know the King.

What always amazed me was David. A harem, girls coming out of his ears and he still falls
for Bathsheba, gets her pregnant, kills her husband by devious means, and then repents, no
issues, except the child dies. Now this is living under grace while walking in righteousness.

The heart, faith and relationship matter more than the day to day behaviour. It seems to be
like a stroppy child needing to grow up. While it is a reflex reaction out of control, its ok, but
entrenched rebellion, you are out.

When my son was a kid he was quite hyper active. At the meal table I offered him some money
if he could hold it together for a few hours. He actually thought about it and knew for him that was
just too difficult. He now would have no problems, but back then he still needed to grow a bit more.

Somehow people have got ones relationship with God is something that does not need work, or grows
and develops, it just is. Odd that when everything in scripture and life tells us things are different.

Why do we have to become like children again? To stay children or to actually grow up?

 

[miknik5]

I am sharing how people react to certain positions of faith, which you are doing right now.
Whatever you share it will always be something you are sharing so you are involved.
To ignore this is to ignore having a conversation or communication itself.

So the negative approach you are giving does not make any sense.
I am not validating or saying anyone has to do anything. I am sharing a perspective,
an experience. It sounds like your God filter is set to bible verses only.

That is very limiting. Is this how you shop for food, or do your work, or get your
gas at the gas station, lol ?a

So you appear to be trying to put me in a straight jacked about what I can express
or share, which unfortunately for you makes no sense. But then that for me sums
up this interaction. But then this is the internet and a forum ...

And I am saying that ALL MEN do have to do something FIRST and foremost and that what they have to do is just what EVERY MAN must do to enter in

and that is come to the cross and the TRUTH of the GOSPEL

I am not suggesting any "other perspective" but this ONE AND ONLY WAY into and into THE KINGDOM OF GOD


And here on this website I am not shopping for (temporal) food

 

[PeterJens]

And I am saying that ALL MEN do have to do something FIRST and foremost and that what they have to do is just what EVERY MAN must do to enter in

and that is come to the cross and the TRUTH of the GOSPEL

I am not suggesting any "other perspective" but this ONE AND ONLY WAY into and into THE KINGDOM OF GOD

And here on this website I am not shopping for (temporal) food

Sorry sister for offering you temporal food, but that is my heart, and my heart
is what God created it to be.

How can I or any other follower of Christ not reach out, because that is the
nature of love. Jesus also commanded us to do it.

But maybe this part of following Jesus has missed you. Being part of the Kingdom
is being of one mind, seeing needs and reaching out to help.

So unfortunately the people of God will always reach out when you appear because
that is who we are. I am sorry if you cannot cope with this, maybe we can help you
grow in this without feeling uncomfortable?

God bless you, the Lord is strong and able to heal, He is our creator.

 

[miknik5]

Peter Jens?

Dont worry about it
when darkness comes it will be made manifest those who truly knew of whose SPIRIT they were of from those who simply did lip service to HIS NAME

When Janes instructed men to give their temporal things when it was in their ability to do it. It was because those who profess themselves to be spiritual should have understood that they are required to do these things before ALL MEN. Give to the one who asks and to not withhold anything from any

if we don't even know and do naturally what is the right thing to do before all men then who are we to even profess ourselves as so spiritual?

 

[miknik5]

Do everything and after doing all that you do say of yourself I am only an unworthy servant I only did what was (and should have been done (given one professes themselves to belong to GOD in CHRIST JESUS)) expected

 

[miknik5]

Sorry sister for offering you temporal food, but that is my heart, and my heart
is what God created it to be.

How can I or any other follower of Christ not reach out, because that is the
nature of love. Jesus also commanded us to do it.

But maybe this part of following Jesus has missed you. Being part of the Kingdom
is being of one mind, seeing needs and reaching out to help.

So unfortunately the people of God will always reach out when you appear because
that is who we are. I am sorry if you cannot cope with this, maybe we can help you
grow in this without feeling uncomfortable?

God bless you, the Lord is strong and able to heal, He is our creator.

I sure do hope so
thst the children of GOD will be made manifest by their love especially when evil runs rampant and pours into our backyards and is no longer something we hear about or see from a distance

thwn we shall see how the children are made manifest

 

[PeterJens]

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
John 15:12

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
John 15:15

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
John 15:13

I was thinking that if I am to die for my brothers and sisters, maybe a bit
of friendship and sharing beforehand might be applicable.

If someone is to die to save me, I would want to know them like a brother
or sister because the debt I would owe, would be massive.

But I think so many can claim, yes I know Jesus, yes I follow Him, but
spend time with others, who are you kidding, its Jesus only I need, lol.

 

[JGIG]

You want me to tell you that you are wrong sand then you want me to list the facts of why you are wrong

and I won't do it
it has no bearing on THE GOSPEL or the discussion sir

and!

because I won't profess myself you are trying to use this to invalidate me as if you are right that there is something hidden in me that I am trying to keep hidden

all because I won't do what you want me to do

profess myself

That is not what you said.

Others must judge that, but I must confess I always find you very difficult to follow.

I never said one or the other. I have never called anyone a legalist or a brother on here. I write generally, not to specific people. Are you a legalist? you often give that impression

Welcome to the wormhole into the alternate universe that is PeterJens' . . . Get out now, while you still can, ha!

Many of us have tried to have reasoned conversations with him - to no avail, sigh.

-JGIG

 

[miknik5]

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
John 15:12

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
John 15:15

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
John 15:13

I was thinking that if I am to die for my brothers and sisters, maybe a bit
of friendship and sharing beforehand might be applicable.

If someone is to die to save me, I would want to know them like a brother
or sister because the debt I would owe, would be massive.

But I think so many can claim, yes I know Jesus, yes I follow Him, but
spend time with others, who are you kidding, its Jesus only I need, lol.

And I'm sorry. You don't claim this?