Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[plussizedstickbug]

In the parable of the sower and the types of ground this was spoken unto His own house those who had been given the Word of God before He came.
There are those nations of gentiles who never knew Him because He had never was their God nor did He give unto them His Word of God to keep unto them.
He never even wrote His Word of God on the gentile nations heart or give unto them His new spirit at any time only one peculiar people set aside as a nation Israel of old was.
And when He came face to face with them in and by and through the face of Christ who was long foretold to come unto them addressing them, with the same Word of God they already were given century and centuries in advance. Even Written by their own scribes Prophets spoke it King spoke it and it was written ad given unto them to keep.

And also was the Word of God for them a warning about their ground and straying from keeping their place and ground they placed on and placed for holding the word of God in spirit and truth.
Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

That was not known but unto who it was given unto regarding Him coming and the rain to come later that was to follow after this word spoken to them.
This was telling them plainly to attain to such as this. Prepare their selves till the LORD who is said to be come raining righteousness upon them.

John the Baptist was sent and came unto them with a loud cry calling to this same Word of God unto them to make way unto it.
The Word of God is the Seed the Sower Christ brought and Christ also was unto them their Righteousness of God speaking this same Truth.
Christ Sowed unto them the same promised to come Word of God with blessing it would offer them.
Who believed The Word of God to be True and faithful to be honored by God spoke unto them even that promise they already had received even as a Hope unto them of those good things to come.

 

[plussizedstickbug]

This to me would also be a great warning unto us gentiles who were also given even a better Word that was to come and did come even unto us.
Not to handle the Word of God they have received in deceit like holding and handling it which is the only Truth but with out spirit their hearts far from God.
Basically hypocrites kind of like what Paul warned about being careful how we build our house upon that Rock even Christ who is that Rock.

 

[Abiding]

Amen, He gave the power to those who received him, He did not give the power to those who rejected him. It is quite clear.

He did not say he gave power to those, so they could receive him. Thus there can only be one order.

So wished i could be reformed/calvinist but this is where they go goofy

 

[tek]

Calvinistic teaching claims that all humans have inherited a corrupt spiritual nature due to the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Due to this marred and perverse nature, the human heart is desperately deceitful, and man’s nature is evil. This doctrine is referred to as “total depravity.” Calvinists insist that “evil pervades every faculty of his soul and every sphere of his life. He is unable to do a single thing that is good”. He cannot do, understand, or desire the good: “the corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul”

In other words all non-believers are dumb moronic imbecilic creatures

 

[tek]

Calvinists also believe that, due to inherited spiritual depravity, babies are born depraved with a corrupt nature. The only way for babies to be saved is for them to be one of the elect, a predetermined few whom God arbitrarily decided to save while condemning all others.


In other words God sends billions of babies to hell for eternity

What a doctrine

 

[Abiding]

Calvinists answer questions the bible doesnt answer naughty naughty

 

[plussizedstickbug]

So what happens to all the others churches denominations of Christ do they consider them elect members of the same one body of Christ or are they the not elected ones who falsely believe their are saved?
I have heard this before I took my grand mother to a revival that the church posted and a friend of hers invited her to come.
The speaker at the church said they were the true river of Christ that is flowing on to the ocean which is heaven their destination.
They said all other churches were the whirlpools in the river that collect all the trash.
And this makes sure those who are garbage are kept out of their church.
It made me feel guilty to hear such as that.
I felt like I was taking part of a camp full of church haters.
There was the Baptist Methodist Presbyterian all other churches being grossly violated in their very dignity by and in and from Christ.
I felt guilty I was there I wanted to crawl out that door and then take off running.
I had remorse and regret for hearing that.
My grand mother got mad she never said anything to them she never spoke just got mad and left mad.
That Church was a cult haven in disguise of a church.

Or do they see only those who reject the Gospel and Christ once they have heard it and there by they were made known of this Truth as being those who have not been added to the elect lady the church.

So then what if they believe unbelievers in the Truth of the Gospel being The True Word of God unto Salvation of them from hell.
They do then accept those who do not accpet the predestination election only as also saved and the elect body of Christ.
These just do not understand how they are elected but that does not change all other things they have received like Salvation and such.
If so why would that understanding of election by predestination make one saved and others not.

It would not change those that believe from those who do not neither accept it the Gospel of Salvation in Christ and Him only appointed as Savior unto all.

All it would do is serve to explain why some are offended or repulsed by such things as God and of God they do not believe in or of.

I would never know what their doctrinal ideology was unless I was a theologian.

I had a time settling an issue regarding a daughter of a fundamental church who considered her mother as she called it a watered down catholic.
When that woman was in the hospital and dying she was going to do there and in the process of it.
The daughter kept hammering the mother to repent of her sins and get saved pray with her so she could receive Salvation.
Even when her mother kept refusing her even unto death that she would not do that the daughter then stated she died in her sins and went to hell.

I wanted to pour out and wash down through the crack in the floor.
I could not imagine some one coming to me and telling me cast down you faith it is a vain faith you have in Christ and me on my death bed.
I was shocked at what a test of her mothers faith she was put through on her death bed by her own daughter.

It made me so feel bad the daughter never even appeared to have any greif over her proclomation of damantion on her own mother.
The funny thing was the daughters husband of the same faith and church said he believed once in grace always in grace.
So it had to have been just for their own church or just for that one daughter who offered it to another who said they already had grace.
The husband to the daughter was already gone to be with the Lord during this.

So I wondered what about that singing man grace grace marvelous grace that flows from the throne of God did not rub off on his wife.

Thing like that can really disturb others and make them want to make sure they find all nails to fasten their faith to their head and chest.

Some times the more I know the worse off I am but it does stir me to consider all things unto me and others.

I think surely it is only a formation and platform of Calvinist explanation of why the entire world is not in Christ all as one and all at one time in this time on earth we are in.
In that I can say yes there is a separation between world and the Church not apart of it.


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God untosalvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Egg me pour boiling water on me call me mud but that above unto means I am not turning back it is my nail I drove that next word Salvation into my forehead with.

 

[hopesprings]

Calvinists also believe that, due to inherited spiritual depravity, babies are born depraved with a corrupt nature.

Not all Calvinists believe this.

 

[Cobus]

Where was the will of Jonah? Or Jonah's choice? He chose not to go to Neniveh, as God instructed. So he fled by ship away from the precence of the Lord. Then the storm came. And the only way to calm the storm was to throw Jonah overboad. that would be comsidered murder, or attampted murder today. Wh throws a man into a stormy sea?

Well not many things went Jonah's way or choice. Did Jonah have a choice, or would HE END UP WHERE GOD SENT him? A FISH took Jonah to dry land three days from NINEVEH where he had to go. A FISH! Even the fish did hat God wanted. And then Jonah says.... SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Even my salvation is NOT MY CHOICE or will, IT IS OF THE LORD!

There is only teo wills on earth God's and Satan's. First Jonah did Satan's. and because God saved Jonah, he did God's. The same with us.... We can only do God's will if HE SAVES US! But I have to agree a little with EG, Those that do chose the slavation, also gets that choice from God!

 

[tek]

Where was the will of Jonah? Or Jonah's choice? He chose not to go to Neniveh, as God instructed. So he fled by ship away from the precence of the Lord. Then the storm came. And the only way to calm the storm was to throw Jonah overboad. that would be comsidered murder, or attampted murder today. Wh throws a man into a stormy sea?

Well not many things went Jonah's way or choice. Did Jonah have a choice, or would HE END UP WHERE GOD SENT him?

When Jonah was flying off the board of his ship into freezing water of the ocean what do you think his thoughts were like….Let me help you with that: “Oh man I wish I was right now in a warm cozy bed in some nice hotel somewhere on the beach with a cocktail in my hand”

That was his “Free Will” talking. But he didn’t have a “Choice” and so he ended up in freezing waters.

That’s the difference between a “Choice” and “Free Will”. Do you see it?

 

[Grandpa]

Calvinistic teaching claims that all humans have inherited a corrupt spiritual nature due to the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Due to this marred and perverse nature, the human heart is desperately deceitful, and man’s nature is evil. This doctrine is referred to as “total depravity.” Calvinists insist that “evil pervades every faculty of his soul and every sphere of his life. He is unable to do a single thing that is good”. He cannot do, understand, or desire the good: “the corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul”

In other words all non-believers are dumb moronic imbecilic creatures

Psalm 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[RickShafer]

Yea.
Romans 9 pretty much seals up the sum of first cause. - (Which is God)
I love how Paul went from the religious -(Jewish trusting in their traditions), to one born out of time to an hundred year old man-(Isaac), to the second born(Jacob) receiving the promise.
And then he threads it in nicely with Pharaoh (heart hardened by God). - For He saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". Rom.9:15pp
Then it gets personal :
Read:
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Gen. 21.12
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. Gen. 18.10
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,
11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Gen. 25.23
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Mal. 1.2, 3
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Ex. 33.19 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Ex. 9.16 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 ¶ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Is. 29.16 ; 45.9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Hose'a,
I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. Hos. 2.23 26 And it shall come to pass,
that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Hos. 1.10 27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel,
Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 for he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Is. 10.22, 23 29 And as Isaiah said before,
Except the Lord of Sab'a-oth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomor'rah. Is. 1.9
Righteousness Based on Faith 30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offense: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Is. 28.16

(Pretty much seals up the sum.)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God indeed does as He pleases. However, I believe that God will provide sufficient grace to those who He forknew would respond to it. It is very possible that God does not provide additional grace to Esau because in His infinite wisdom, He forknew that Esau would not respond under any amount of grace.

Again I question this. I must, because I can find nothing in scripture which would say Esau was never saved and is not in heaven today. Not saying he was saved, but nothing would lead me to see it either way, Thus I can not take paul to saying he saved on kid and rejected another kid to hell. for there is no proof either way. Just opinion.

God gave Esau land. He blessed him with much livestock. Again, Jacob called him Lord, and Claimed he was Esau's servant. Esau was a hunter, Jacob was a mild man, meaning esau was stronger. I do not see any reason why we should think Paul was speaking obout the two kids. and not the two nations which came from the kids (Edom and Israel) and again, as I showed. When paul quoted malachi, God was not saying he hated Esau the kid or Jacob the kid. He was saying he loved the nation of Jacob more than he loved the nation of Edom

I believe that Jesus' death on the cross provided sufficient grace to save EVERYONE!!

As stupid as it sounds, some people will reject that grace. In your example above, it would be as if some people would reject the free gift of money. God, however, knows who will accept and reject his offer in advance, and so, for those who He foreknew would reject, He may choose not to offer His grace, knowing in advance it would be rejected, and therefore, ineffective.

True, he may not send them the gospel. But Scripture still sates the Holy Spirit does convict them. Thus they still have no excuse.

Hey EG! Very nice work. I can see that you have put some quality time and thought into this. I may not agree with everything, but I do like the effort and the love of God that is evident in all of your postings. I have made some comments above in the body of your posting in green.

Just something to think about.

What, if any, is the purpose of retroactive prayer?

Suppose that you have just received the news that an airplane has gone down, and that there are only 25 survivors out of 300 people on board. Now you know that a family member was on that plane.

Is there any purpose in praying that your family member is not one of the dead? Will your prayers change an event that has already occurred?

A better question would be, will your prayers change any event that is fatalisticly predestined?

Is there any purpose for any prayers of petition for those who believe that man has no choice?

I believe that your prayers can be effective because God sees those prayers from the beginning, before the plane crash, and therefore can answer the prayer by choosing in advance to save the person you pray for.

That is the power of foreknowledge that God has. That is also the power of prayer, that would become useless in the case of fatalistic predestination.

Amen. Gods foreknowledge has more power than I think we can fathom. I think someone said something about God having to look WAY into the future. I think we forget God is outside of time. What would be 1000 years in the future to us would be near and present to him. God does not have to look way out. It is near to him. which is why it is hard for us to fathom, and i think sometimes confuses us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

??
oh wow. EG?
i am Lutheran, so i do not hold hard and fast to double predestination/and or/totally freewill man etc.
i am not required to force these passages to fit. i have liberty to puzzle over them. and to try to understand.
i am to see them, accept them for what they say without climbing into heaven to ask God why He is doing what He is.

are we certain we want to say God called Abram because he figured He could trust him?

More important than even this. are we foolish enough to think God would call abraham if he KNEW he would reject him. Again, I am trying to get people to see both sides of the fence.

was God taking a chance on Abram?

so, what we seem to want to say is, God thought about, or ran redemptive history through His mind or something first, saw men like Abram, saw Himself calling Abram and saw Abram agreeing, so He kind of went "Whew..okay. i can trust Abram to make my Plan work.....now who else do i see in My mind doing right, being righteous and obeying Me?......okay, him and him, and her....they are all GOOD because they agree to submit to Me....So it is safe for me to go ahead and begin creation now, since I know who I can trust."

Wow. Well if we look at it this way, it does sound foolish. But who said it has to be this way.

Why do you think God would say, whew Abraham will obey me? Why did he not just look for someone in the time and area of where he wanted for a man who would obey him, and say ok, I choose this man?

Who else do I see being righteous? There is non righteous no not one. Abraham was a sinner, Even after God asking to do what he did, he committed many sins, He was not righteous. God just used him to fulfill a purpose, just like he does all of us, if we let him. God is not foolish, Yes he made a plan. And yes he put people in place he knew would fulfill his plan. He did not just force them to do it. What Kind of God would he be if he did this? would he be the loving God that used sinners to fulfill his plan of their own free will, and saved them out of their situation to restore them to him? Again, I think it is how you look at it. We definately do not see how God lookied into the future the say way.

In fact I think this draws us exactly to why Paul wrote romans 9 - 11. Think of what you just said. God chose Isreal. God gave them all the things Paul said in the first 5 verses. Yet people, like us, had to be wondering, did God make a mistake? He chose them, yet they scorned him, committed adultery on him (spiritual) Would nto listen to him, did not obey him, Did not love him, Did not appreciate all he gave them, and ended up rejecting the one he sent to save them. This I believe is the context of these three chapters of romans. And what I was trying to show.

like???

it's not adding up.

this isn't a criticism of you EG. i love you.
these are very difficult passages. and we have not been able to solve the issue by ourselves.
to make them "fit" or "match"; we inevitably turn to the idea that God had to plan it all and see who would be righteous.

then He turns around and says there is none righteous, no not one. and we are willing to believe THAT part.
but really, we don't. because we have to say we WERE righteous or good or had faith in Him without Him, in the Plan before He began creation!

Again, this does not make sense. Salvation is based on faith. not being Good. So your idea that God had to figure out who would be righteous would be a fals argument, because there is non righteous. Thus God did not look into the future to see who would be righteous and chose them, because that is not how one is saved, they are saved by placing faith in him. Thus he had to chose them based on this, not on their good deeds would he not?

i could be totally wrong on this.
i'm not saying you are totally wrong. i'm saying if we continue with our own logic....this is where it has to go.
doesn't it?

Yep I do. Thats why I tried to break down romans 9 used two vews. So we could discuss both, Like the example of easau and jacob. Did God condemn one kid and save another. Or is God talking about two nations, which had nothing to do with the kids. except being the fathers of the nations in question.

i want to talk more EG.
cuz i do want to see if there's something i (we) have been missing.
love you buddy
zonest

Love ya too. Sorry took so long to get back. yesterday was bad day at work. and I had to give a Christmas sermon at church last night. so was not able to log on could not give any real thought as to what people say so I could reply honestly without just my opinion.

 

[superdave5221]

Again I question this. I must, because I can find nothing in scripture which would say Esau was never saved and is not in heaven today. Not saying he was saved, but nothing would lead me to see it either way, Thus I can not take paul to saying he saved on kid and rejected another kid to hell. for there is no proof either way. Just opinion.

Good point EG. You're absolutely right. God's problem with Esau was that he despised his birthright and was therefore unworthy to be in the seedline of our Savior. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he was unsaved. I would not want to speculate on that issue, and I was wrong to do so.

God gave Esau land. He blessed him with much livestock. Again, Jacob called him Lord, and Claimed he was Esau's servant. Esau was a hunter, Jacob was a mild man, meaning esau was stronger. I do not see any reason why we should think Paul was speaking obout the two kids. and not the two nations which came from the kids (Edom and Israel) and again, as I showed. When paul quoted malachi, God was not saying he hated Esau the kid or Jacob the kid. He was saying he loved the nation of Jacob more than he loved the nation of Edom

Agreed.



True, he may not send them the gospel. But Scripture still sates the Holy Spirit does convict them. Thus they still have no excuse.





Amen. Gods foreknowledge has more power than I think we can fathom. I think someone said something about God having to look WAY into the future. I think we forget God is outside of time. What would be 1000 years in the future to us would be near and present to him. God does not have to look way out. It is near to him. which is why it is hard for us to fathom, and i think sometimes confuses us.

Amen. Once again, you are right on the money. God hated (rejected) Esau for the purpose of fulfilling His promise to Abraham and in continuing the seedline for the Messiah. As for salvation, we don't know.

 

[Abiding]

We cant forget the spiritual implication of God hating the firstborn Esau(flesh) and the second born Jacob(Israel,Spirit)
but you all knew that.

 

[zone]

More important than even this. are we foolish enough to think God would call abraham if he KNEW he would reject him. Again, I am trying to get people to see both sides of the fence.

hi bud
yup. i'm trying to see both sides as well.

God is both Sovereign and Merciful.

no EG, i'm not trying to actually say anything about God, i was just trying to examine our (my) logic in this.

see, even if we do it like this:

"are we foolish enough to think God would call abraham if he KNEW he would reject him."

....it STILL turns out to be God planning everything based on who summons up faith, right?

if we must force this to fit, (which you can tell i am less and less willing to do personally, though the discussion is a very good one) it really does come down to:

God has to look into His Own Plan....and see who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation...(let's leave out the issue of God outside of time for now...i don't mean to stir up mental illustrations of linear time for God etc)

if this is the case - God has to look into His Own Plan....and see who will reject/accept Him before He does anything, including beginning creation, the argument we are making ends up being exactly like predestination that we are struggling against on the other side - because:

IF He had to look into His Own Plan first to see who would accept Him; it means He went ahead ANYWAY and allowed men to be born whom HE KNEW would reject Him (because we KNOW there have been and will be many who did and do)!

so i see no difference!

what am i missing?

Wow. Well if we look at it this way, it does sound foolish. But who said it has to be this way.

Why do you think God would say, whew Abraham will obey me? Why did he not just look for someone in the time and area of where he wanted for a man who would obey him, and say ok, I choose this man?

??
here we have Him ordering EVERYTHING based on who will believe (which is the first step to obeying in the 100% freewill camp, right?)

so, we have Him doing everything based on who has/receives/summons FAITH - BEFORE they were ever born!

but we have to agree the scriptures of our Bible say faith itself is gift from God, EG.
what do we do with that?

Who else do I see being righteous? There is non righteous no not one. Abraham was a sinner, Even after God asking to do what he did, he committed many sins, He was not righteous. God just used him to fulfill a purpose, just like he does all of us, if we let him.

i knew i overworked that post
i didn't literally mean righteous, i meant they obeyed! which means they had faith without Him giving it to them! and He then acted accordingly. it's not adding up. not for me so far.

And yes he put people in place he knew would fulfill his plan.

well then, when they/we get to heaven, will we not have things to boast about?

"people in place he knew would fulfill his plan"

it's almost as if we will be getting praise from HIM for making His Plan work!!!
God forbid!

He did not just force them to do it. What Kind of God would he be if he did this?

EG - it looks like in many places He [forced - buzzword, i don't want to use it] ordained that ppl would do things, whether they knew it or not. example, Caiaphas.

John 11
The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, 46but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all. 50Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish.” 51He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

Caiaphas wasn't for The Lord, EG. he was against Him.

would he be the loving God that used sinners to fulfill his plan of their own free will, and saved them out of their situation to restore them to him? Again, I think it is how you look at it. We definately do not see how God lookied into the future the say way.

no EG....i'm not making (forcing) anything to match if i don't have to.
i'm kinda moving away from that in this particular area because of the dangers involved at both extremes.
not moving away from the discussion, but rather from saying it is either A or B.

for now anyway.

so i see both sides....am trying to anyways, okay?

In fact I think this draws us exactly to why Paul wrote romans 9 - 11. Think of what you just said. God chose Isreal. God gave them all the things Paul said in the first 5 verses. Yet people, like us, had to be wondering, did God make a mistake? He chose them, yet they scorned him, committed adultery on him (spiritual) Would nto listen to him, did not obey him, Did not love him, Did not appreciate all he gave them, and ended up rejecting the one he sent to save them. This I believe is the context of these three chapters of romans. And what I was trying to show.

yes, God did choose Israel.
and of course He makes no mistakes.

but Who is really the Ultimate ISRAEL?
i don't want a derailment EG - just saying there's a lot to this.

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2
The Flight to Egypt
13Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Again, this does not make sense. Salvation is based on faith. not being Good. So your idea that God had to figure out who would be righteous would be a fals argument, because there is non righteous. Thus God did not look into the future to see who would be righteous and chose them, because that is not how one is saved, they are saved by placing faith in him. Thus he had to chose them based on this, not on their good deeds would he not?

again, i know EG. i overworked it, trying to highlight what the implications REALLY are.

"Thus he had to chose them based on this"

??

see what i mean?

~

love, from the twilightzone on this one right now....

 

[Abiding]

can anyone help me with this verse?
Matt.23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[RickShafer]

can anyone help me with this verse?
Matt.23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jesus said it at the end of His ministry as He overlooked Jerusalem from the mount of Olives.
Basically it states what happened: He came unto His own and His own received Him not.
They had the oracles of God, and they knew a Messiah was coming but it couldn't be Him.
Because He didn't set up an eternal kingdom, like the prophecies said. (See...they saw only in part, but they thought they saw in full).
So it was a people who had the writings of Moses and the prophets and knew that the Messiah would set up an eternal kingdom when He showed up.
(The Jews still believe this to this day!)
They believe the Messiah will set up an eternal kingdom.....that's their scripture and they are sticking to it.
They are looking for a righteous David. He showed up, but He slipped through their hands.
Because He didn't free them from their captors.
See how all they were looking for was temporal and material?
While Jesus frees souls from the bonds of spiritual chains, tens of thousands of souls a day.

In my mind, this is what Matt. 23:37 means.

 

[Abiding]

"how often would I have gathered"


" and ye would not!"



Rick yes true...in the light of part of the dialogue in this thread my question is primarily
why Jesus would "even try" if He simply administers faith to whomever He elects...
to me this verse may be seen as very misleading in the light of some folks theology.
Or i just dont get it.....which wouldnt be surprising to me.