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Hey EG! Very nice work. I can see that you have put some quality time and thought into this. I may not agree with everything, but I do like the effort and the love of God that is evident in all of your postings. I have made some comments above in the body of your posting in green.
Just something to think about.
What, if any, is the purpose of retroactive prayer?
Suppose that you have just received the news that an airplane has gone down, and that there are only 25 survivors out of 300 people on board. Now you know that a family member was on that plane.
Is there any purpose in praying that your family member is not one of the dead? Will your prayers change an event that has already occurred?
A better question would be, will your prayers change any event that is fatalisticly predestined?
Is there any purpose for any prayers of petition for those who believe that man has no choice?
I believe that your prayers can be effective because God sees those prayers from the beginning, before the plane crash, and therefore can answer the prayer by choosing in advance to save the person you pray for.
That is the power of foreknowledge that God has. That is also the power of prayer, that would become useless in the case of fatalistic predestination.
Just something to think about.
What, if any, is the purpose of retroactive prayer?
Suppose that you have just received the news that an airplane has gone down, and that there are only 25 survivors out of 300 people on board. Now you know that a family member was on that plane.
Is there any purpose in praying that your family member is not one of the dead? Will your prayers change an event that has already occurred?
A better question would be, will your prayers change any event that is fatalisticly predestined?
Is there any purpose for any prayers of petition for those who believe that man has no choice?
I believe that your prayers can be effective because God sees those prayers from the beginning, before the plane crash, and therefore can answer the prayer by choosing in advance to save the person you pray for.
That is the power of foreknowledge that God has. That is also the power of prayer, that would become useless in the case of fatalistic predestination.
that verse is Jesus speaking to a church. a specific church. though it does apply to all churches.
He is outside the church knocking, instead of inside being honored, worshipped and taught.
it is not saying He is knocking at every random man's heart asking to come in.
we can tweak it to say that, and ppl do.
but read the context. the whole chapter.
He is outside the church knocking, instead of inside being honored, worshipped and taught.
it is not saying He is knocking at every random man's heart asking to come in.
we can tweak it to say that, and ppl do.
but read the context. the whole chapter.
??
oh wow. EG?
i am Lutheran, so i do not hold hard and fast to double predestination/and or/totally freewill man etc.
i am not required to force these passages to fit. i have liberty to puzzle over them. and to try to understand.
i am to see them, accept them for what they say without climbing into heaven to ask God why He is doing what He is.
are we certain we want to say God called Abram because he figured He could trust him?
was God taking a chance on Abram?
so, what we seem to want to say is, God thought about, or ran redemptive history through His mind or something first, saw men like Abram, saw Himself calling Abram and saw Abram agreeing, so He kind of went "Whew..okay. i can trust Abram to make my Plan work.....now who else do i see in My mind doing right, being righteous and obeying Me?......okay, him and him, and her....they are all GOOD because they agree to submit to Me....So it is safe for me to go ahead and begin creation now, since I know who I can trust."
like???
it's not adding up.
this isn't a criticism of you EG. i love you.
these are very difficult passages. and we have not been able to solve the issue by ourselves.
to make them "fit" or "match"; we inevitably turn to the idea that God had to plan it all and see who would be righteous.
then He turns around and says there is none righteous, no not one. and we are willing to believe THAT part.
but really, we don't. because we have to say we WERE righteous or good or had faith in Him without Him, in the Plan before He began creation!
i could be totally wrong on this.
i'm not saying you are totally wrong. i'm saying if we continue with our own logic....this is where it has to go.
doesn't it?
i want to talk more EG.
cuz i do want to see if there's something i (we) have been missing.
love you buddy
zonest
oh wow. EG?
i am Lutheran, so i do not hold hard and fast to double predestination/and or/totally freewill man etc.
i am not required to force these passages to fit. i have liberty to puzzle over them. and to try to understand.
i am to see them, accept them for what they say without climbing into heaven to ask God why He is doing what He is.
are we certain we want to say God called Abram because he figured He could trust him?
was God taking a chance on Abram?
so, what we seem to want to say is, God thought about, or ran redemptive history through His mind or something first, saw men like Abram, saw Himself calling Abram and saw Abram agreeing, so He kind of went "Whew..okay. i can trust Abram to make my Plan work.....now who else do i see in My mind doing right, being righteous and obeying Me?......okay, him and him, and her....they are all GOOD because they agree to submit to Me....So it is safe for me to go ahead and begin creation now, since I know who I can trust."
like???
it's not adding up.
this isn't a criticism of you EG. i love you.
these are very difficult passages. and we have not been able to solve the issue by ourselves.
to make them "fit" or "match"; we inevitably turn to the idea that God had to plan it all and see who would be righteous.
then He turns around and says there is none righteous, no not one. and we are willing to believe THAT part.
but really, we don't. because we have to say we WERE righteous or good or had faith in Him without Him, in the Plan before He began creation!
i could be totally wrong on this.
i'm not saying you are totally wrong. i'm saying if we continue with our own logic....this is where it has to go.
doesn't it?
i want to talk more EG.
cuz i do want to see if there's something i (we) have been missing.
love you buddy
zonest
Do you want to say that all non-Christians are evil horrible people like Adolf Hitler or smth?
Non-Christians are not all alike. They are not all the same
Some are better than the others
Some do have good ground before they are born again
They are not righteous but they do have good ground for the seed
That’s what follows from the parable below
Mathew 13:18Hearye therefore the parable of the sower .When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended .He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit , and bringeth forth , some an hundredfold , some sixty , some thirty.
What is a good ground? It's the condition of your heart. It must be your inward inclination or desire towards something. So it must be about the free will
Non-Christians are not all alike. They are not all the same
Some are better than the others
Some do have good ground before they are born again
They are not righteous but they do have good ground for the seed
That’s what follows from the parable below
Mathew 13:18Hearye therefore the parable of the sower .When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended .He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit , and bringeth forth , some an hundredfold , some sixty , some thirty.
What is a good ground? It's the condition of your heart. It must be your inward inclination or desire towards something. So it must be about the free will
Wrong interpretation. Church is a group of people. How can Rev 3:20 be about a group of people when it says “if any man opens I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me” meaning the intimacy with that single person?
God wants all come to repentance
2 Pet. 3: 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Gad wants all men to be saved
1 Tim 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
Jesus offers salvation to all
Matt 11: 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
He died for the whole world
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
He came to save the whole world
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him
Jesus is the Door
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved , and shall go in and out , and find pasture.
Any person in the world is encouraged to knock that Door
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
And in verse below Jesus even says that he himself knocks that door
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me
God wants all come to repentance
2 Pet. 3: 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Gad wants all men to be saved
1 Tim 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
Jesus offers salvation to all
Matt 11: 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
He died for the whole world
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
He came to save the whole world
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him
Jesus is the Door
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved , and shall go in and out , and find pasture.
Any person in the world is encouraged to knock that Door
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
And in verse below Jesus even says that he himself knocks that door
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me
i didn't say He didn't.
btw: that's Peter speaking to the elect. go read it again.
i suggested (do as you will);
context:
To the Church in Laodicea
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
15“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
btw: that's Peter speaking to the elect. go read it again.
i suggested (do as you will);
context:
To the Church in Laodicea
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
15“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Yes it was written to the church in Laodicea meaning to the congregation just like Paul wrote letters to the church in Corinth.
The whole New Testament is written to the church. Who else will be reading it?
In summary, church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23). This group of believers or "the body of Christ" began in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit and will continue to be formed until the day of the rapture of the church
Revelation 3:20 doesn’t mean that Jesus will be standing outside of physical church building located somewhere in Laodicea knocking on its door with his fist. Is it what you suggest? That’s just such a ridiculous interpretation
The whole New Testament is written to the church. Who else will be reading it?
In summary, church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23). This group of believers or "the body of Christ" began in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit and will continue to be formed until the day of the rapture of the church
Revelation 3:20 doesn’t mean that Jesus will be standing outside of physical church building located somewhere in Laodicea knocking on its door with his fist. Is it what you suggest? That’s just such a ridiculous interpretation
The parable of a sower is about the heart of a non-believer. Four types are given
Way side
Stony places
Among thorns
Good ground
So some non-believers have good ground.
That means they will believe the gospel
And Faith come by hearing
Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ
You receive the Holy Spirit by faith just as you receive Jesus as the Lord (Gal.3:14)
If you have Holy Spirit you have understanding
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
For many centuries, the worldwide Church consistently recognized man’s free will throughout Scripture. In the year 680, the doctrine of free-will was authoritatively defended by the Church in the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Then, over 800 years later, the Protestant Reformation erupted. Men like Martin Luther and John Calvin convinced many followers that man’s free will was an illusion. They cited a number of Scriptures out of context, attempting to support their views. One of the passages frequently used was the 9th chapter of Romans. Ironically, when Romans 9 is interpreted in its full biblical context, it actually proves to be a positive argument in favor of man’s free-will. There are many impressive connections between the Biblical books of Jeremiah and Romans: 1. Jeremiah and Paul were both prophets born to the tribe of Benjamin. 2. Both were prophets who wept over the unfaithfulness of the Jews, and over the judgment which came to them as a result. 3. Both used very similar concepts and similar terminology in their books. For example, consider Paul’s “Olive Tree” terminology in Romans 11, which closely parallels Jeremiah’s “Olive Tree” terminology in Jeremiah 11. Similarly, Romans 9 closely parallels Jeremiah 18.
Paul was an Old Testament scholar. He knew the OT backwards and forwards, including the book of Jeremiah. Plus, Paul was a Benjamite prophet, just like Jeremiah. So it is not surprising that Paul’s writings echo the writings of Jeremiah so often. In Jeremiah 18, the prophet Jeremiah likens God’s grace & judgment to the way a Potter works with clay. The Potter makes some vessels for honorable uses, and other vessels for destruction. In Romans 9, the prophet Paul likens God’s grace & judgment to the way a Potter works with clay. The Potter makes some vessels for honorable uses, and other vessels for destruction. In Jeremiah 18, Jeremiah is explicitly clear . . . The clay determines whether or not the Potter will make it into this sort of pot or that. If the Potter makes the clay into a vessel of mercy, but then the clay rebels, then the Potter changes course and remakes the clay into a vessel of wrath. If the Potter makes the clay into a vessel of wrath, but then the clay repents, then the Potter changes course and remakes the clay into a vessel of mercy.
In Jeremiah 18 , the Potter molds the clay of the nations. Faithful nations are molded into vessels of mercy, and rebellious nations are molded into vessels of wrath. And through repentance, any nation can influence the hand of the Potter. In Romans 9 , the Potter molds the clay of the Jews and Gentiles. Those who are faithful are molded into vessels of mercy, and those who are rebellious are molded into vessels of wrath. And today, as always, the Potter’s hand is influenced by man’s genuine repentance. Jeremiah 18 is in agreement with the theology of man’s free-will. And Romans 9 was written in light of Jeremiah 18, even using similar terminology. When these passages are viewed side-by-side , the close parallels are easy to see.
Paul was an Old Testament scholar. He knew the OT backwards and forwards, including the book of Jeremiah. Plus, Paul was a Benjamite prophet, just like Jeremiah. So it is not surprising that Paul’s writings echo the writings of Jeremiah so often. In Jeremiah 18, the prophet Jeremiah likens God’s grace & judgment to the way a Potter works with clay. The Potter makes some vessels for honorable uses, and other vessels for destruction. In Romans 9, the prophet Paul likens God’s grace & judgment to the way a Potter works with clay. The Potter makes some vessels for honorable uses, and other vessels for destruction. In Jeremiah 18, Jeremiah is explicitly clear . . . The clay determines whether or not the Potter will make it into this sort of pot or that. If the Potter makes the clay into a vessel of mercy, but then the clay rebels, then the Potter changes course and remakes the clay into a vessel of wrath. If the Potter makes the clay into a vessel of wrath, but then the clay repents, then the Potter changes course and remakes the clay into a vessel of mercy.
In Jeremiah 18 , the Potter molds the clay of the nations. Faithful nations are molded into vessels of mercy, and rebellious nations are molded into vessels of wrath. And through repentance, any nation can influence the hand of the Potter. In Romans 9 , the Potter molds the clay of the Jews and Gentiles. Those who are faithful are molded into vessels of mercy, and those who are rebellious are molded into vessels of wrath. And today, as always, the Potter’s hand is influenced by man’s genuine repentance. Jeremiah 18 is in agreement with the theology of man’s free-will. And Romans 9 was written in light of Jeremiah 18, even using similar terminology. When these passages are viewed side-by-side , the close parallels are easy to see.
what happens when we change the emphasis?
anything?
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
see, my position is that we ought not to TAKE ONE POSITION OR THE OTHER!
just preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED.
anything?
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Matthew 13:11
And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
see, my position is that we ought not to TAKE ONE POSITION OR THE OTHER!
just preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED.
G
Here's a start, jimdig, it should make one see their life should be holy, acceptable, a living sacrifice, too.
Paul was called by the will of God. Paul says God called all of the corinth church, to be holy, sanctified in Christ Jesus, and, He called people EVERYWHERE to follow Him.
What's complicated about this choice? WHY are you chosen, Christbro, over many predestined for eternity lost?
Following the will of God, you feel, is of no consequence to you, your INCREASE (eternity with Christ) will come no matter if you plant with Him? You're already 'picked.' You're part of the exclusive elect, Scripture speaks of, and, you CANNOT FAIL ! Wow. Nice. Only one thing wrong, with this way of 'selective' thinking, hmm, besides it's Naziistic, it's not right. Choose this day whom YOU will serve. Child of faith and grace, child of the rebellion, the choice is YOURS .
EPIC FAIL to think God doesn't let man make His own choice, those whom He reveals Himself to. Jimdig, who does God reveal Himself to? Many? Few?. Or, ALL (called) and can, therefore, choose to, or, not to, CALL on Him ?
Paul was called by the will of God. Paul says God called all of the corinth church, to be holy, sanctified in Christ Jesus, and, He called people EVERYWHERE to follow Him.
What's complicated about this choice? WHY are you chosen, Christbro, over many predestined for eternity lost?
Following the will of God, you feel, is of no consequence to you, your INCREASE (eternity with Christ) will come no matter if you plant with Him? You're already 'picked.' You're part of the exclusive elect, Scripture speaks of, and, you CANNOT FAIL ! Wow. Nice. Only one thing wrong, with this way of 'selective' thinking, hmm, besides it's Naziistic, it's not right. Choose this day whom YOU will serve. Child of faith and grace, child of the rebellion, the choice is YOURS .
EPIC FAIL to think God doesn't let man make His own choice, those whom He reveals Himself to. Jimdig, who does God reveal Himself to? Many? Few?. Or, ALL (called) and can, therefore, choose to, or, not to, CALL on Him ?
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Let me give you my point first
Calvinistic teaching claims that all humans have inherited a corrupt spiritual nature due to the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Due to this marred and perverse nature, the human heart is desperately deceitful, and man’s nature is evil. This doctrine is referred to as “total depravity.” Calvinists insist that “evil pervades every faculty of his soul and every sphere of his life. He is unable to do a single thing that is good”. He cannot do, understand, or desire the good: “the corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul”
In other words all non-believers are dumb moronic imbeciles
What I believe the parable of a sower shows is that non-believers are not all the same. There are different categories. Hence Calvinistic view is false
Calvinistic teaching claims that all humans have inherited a corrupt spiritual nature due to the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Due to this marred and perverse nature, the human heart is desperately deceitful, and man’s nature is evil. This doctrine is referred to as “total depravity.” Calvinists insist that “evil pervades every faculty of his soul and every sphere of his life. He is unable to do a single thing that is good”. He cannot do, understand, or desire the good: “the corruption extends to every part of man, his body and soul”
In other words all non-believers are dumb moronic imbeciles
What I believe the parable of a sower shows is that non-believers are not all the same. There are different categories. Hence Calvinistic view is false
Ok let’s go through that verse that you posted. Here is the verse where Jesus gives the reason why it is hidden from some people.
Luke 10:[21] In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Are you suggesting that God predestined some people to be Wise and Prudent first? He then looked at people from above and to his surprise and utter amazement noticed that some people are Wise and Prudent! He then got disgusted with Wise and Prudent people. He then thought to himself “Well I better hide things from these people because these people are Wise and Prudent”. So Wise and Prudent people are now all going to hell. Can you see the flaw in a reasoning like that?
Luke 10:[21] In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Are you suggesting that God predestined some people to be Wise and Prudent first? He then looked at people from above and to his surprise and utter amazement noticed that some people are Wise and Prudent! He then got disgusted with Wise and Prudent people. He then thought to himself “Well I better hide things from these people because these people are Wise and Prudent”. So Wise and Prudent people are now all going to hell. Can you see the flaw in a reasoning like that?