Sabbath kept until what year?

[KohenMatt]

Ok, that's just not what's going on in Lev 23, or the OT. If this is what you feel you need to do though, by all means do it. Just don't require others to do it thinking that doing so meets some requirement in the Pentateuch.

As John has shown, you don't have a clear understanding of what God taught the Israelites regarding the months and the days. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that you should start the 7 days over whenever the new moon is sighted. Very few cultures, and prominent ones at that, have taken your stance (unless I'm misunderstanding it).

Even our Gregorian calendar does it the way we're proposing.
Today is the 1st day of July.
It is the 2nd day of the week.

 

[p_rehbein]

As John has shown, you don't have a clear understanding of what God taught the Israelites regarding the months and the days. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that you should start the 7 days over whenever the new moon is sighted. Very few cultures, and prominent ones at that, have taken your stance (unless I'm misunderstanding it).

Even our Gregorian calendar does it the way we're proposing.
Today is the 1st day of July.
It is the 2nd day of the week.

Well, not for nothing, but I DON'T ACCEPT the Gregorian calendar.............way I see it is: Today is July 1st, it's the FIRST day of the Week............so there...........Friday is the LAST day of the Week...........Saturday is the First day of the Weekend and Sunday is the Last day of the Weekend.

Been that way for almost 64 years, I see no need to change now.............

 

[JimmieD]

As John has shown, you don't have a clear understanding of what God taught the Israelites regarding the months and the days. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach that you should start the 7 days over whenever the new moon is sighted.

...except Leviticus 23.

23:7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.

23:35 On the first day is a holy assembly; you must do no regular work.

23:36 For seven days you must present a gift to the Lord. On the eighth day there is to be a holy assembly for you, and you must present a gift to the Lord. It is a solemn assembly day; you must not do any regular work.

23:39 “‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you gather in the produce of the land, you must celebrate a pilgrim festival of the Lord for seven days. On the first day is a complete rest and on the eighth day is complete rest.[SUP]
[/SUP]​

...and except in the Prophets where such a thing is assumed. Here is an example:

Is 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
​

The month began with a New Moon which occured on the Sabbath. Eight days later was a Sabbath. Fifteen days later was a Sabbath.

Even our Gregorian calendar does it the way we're proposing.
Today is the 1st day of July.
It is the 2nd day of the week.

Israelites didn't use a Gregorian calendar.

 

[KohenMatt]

Well, not for nothing, but I DON'T ACCEPT the Gregorian calendar.............way I see it is: Today is July 1st, it's the FIRST day of the Week............so there...........Friday is the LAST day of the Week...........Saturday is the First day of the Weekend and Sunday is the Last day of the Weekend.

Been that way for almost 64 years, I see no need to change now.............

Take a look at your calendar at work or at your home (wherever you may be at the moment), and tell me what day on the line it is)

Unless you only use a digital calendar, which throws my whole evidence off.

 

[JimmieD]

...except Leviticus 23.

23:7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.

23:35 On the first day is a holy assembly; you must do no regular work.

23:36 For seven days you must present a gift to the Lord. On the eighth day there is to be a holy assembly for you, and you must present a gift to the Lord. It is a solemn assembly day; you must not do any regular work.

23:39 “‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you gather in the produce of the land, you must celebrate a pilgrim festival of the Lord for seven days. On the first day is a complete rest and on the eighth day is complete rest.[SUP]
[/SUP]​

Meant to include this one as well:

23:23 The Lord spoke to Moses: 23:24 “Tell the Israelites, ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you must have a complete rest, a memorial announced by loud horn blasts,[SUP] [/SUP]a holy assembly. 23:25 You must not do any regular work,​

 

[KohenMatt]

...except Leviticus 23.

23:7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.

23:35 On the first day is a holy assembly; you must do no regular work.

23:36 For seven days you must present a gift to the Lord. On the eighth day there is to be a holy assembly for you, and you must present a gift to the Lord. It is a solemn assembly day; you must not do any regular work.

23:39 “‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you gather in the produce of the land, you must celebrate a pilgrim festival of the Lord for seven days. On the first day is a complete rest and on the eighth day is complete rest.[SUP]
[/SUP]​

...and except in the Prophets where such a thing is assumed. Here is an example:

Is 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
​

The month began with a New Moon which occured on the Sabbath. Eight days later was a Sabbath. Fifteen days later was a Sabbath.



Israelites didn't use a Gregorian calendar.

Those are all regarding the Feast days specifically, which are different than the weekly. The only instructions given in that chapter regarding the weekly Sabbath is in the verse you didn't mention:

Leviticus 23:3
“‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest,a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord."

6 days of work, 7th day is a Sabbath, etc. etc. There are no instructions otherwise.

 

[JimmieD]

Those are all regarding the Feast days specifically, which are different than the weekly.

They are different now thanks to people like Hillel II. In Leviticus 23 though, there is no difference. There is no regulation in Lev 23 on what to do if the weekly Sabbath is adjacent to a Festival Sabbath (because for Lev 23, that doesn't happen). There is no regulation on "Rules of Postponement" (because for Lev 23, that doesn't happen).

The only instructions given in that chapter regarding the weekly Sabbath is in the verse you didn't mention:

Leviticus 23:3
“‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest,a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord."

6 days of work, 7th day is a Sabbath, etc. etc. There are no instructions otherwise.

The same langugage that is used to describe the Sabbath in Lev 23:3 is the same langage used to describe every Sabbath listed in the passage. There is no difference between the Sabbaths listed in the chapter and the weekly Sabbaths - which is why the chapter starts off by talking about the institution of the weekly Sabbath. The interpretation I'm suggesting doesn't result in having to seperate the meaning and purpose of first 3 verses from the rest of the passage.

23:3 “‘Six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest,a holy assembly. You must not do any work;

23:7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.23:8 You must present a gift to the Lord for seven days, and the seventh day is a holy assembly; you must not do any regular work.’”

23:21 “‘On this very day you must proclaim an assembly; it is to be a holy assembly for you. You must not do any regular work

23:24 “Tell the Israelites, ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you must have a complete rest, a memorial announced by loud horn blasts,a holy assembly . 23:25 You must not do any regular work

23:35 On the first day is a holy assembly; you must do no regular work. 23:36 For seven days you must present a gift to the Lord. On the eighth day there is to be a holy assembly for you, and you must present a gift to the Lord. It is a solemn assembly day;you must not do any regular work.
​

Lev 23:3 tells you that there are to be weelly Sabbaths. The rest of the passage tells you exactly when those Sabbaths occur during the month. There is absolutely no need to seperate vs 3 from what's happening in the rest of the passage. The passage is easy to understand, and works out too coincidentally to be an accident, once it's understood that the author of Lev 23 is using a strictly lunar calendar. There is no reason or warrant for thinking that the Sabbaths in Lev 23 are talking about something different from 23:3.....especially since the Sabbaths in the chapter occur weekly.

 

[john832]

Ok, that's just not what's going on in Lev 23, or the OT. If this is what you feel you need to do though, by all means do it. Just don't require others to do it thinking that doing so meets some requirement in the Pentateuch.

What is going on in Lev 23 are the ANNUAL Feast Days...

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Here we see the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread. Passover is on the fourteenth of the first month. The Days of Unleavened Bread begin on the fifteenth and end on the twenty-first day of the month. These are not weekly Sabbaths, they occur only once a year.

Pentecost is counted from the weekly Sabbath contained in the Days of Unleavened Bread and only occurs once a year.

The Feast of Trumpets occurs once a year on the first day of the seventh month. Atonement occurs once a year...

Exo 30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

on the tenth day of the seventh month.

The Feast of Tabernacles occurs once a year. The first day of the Feast is a high day (an annual Sabbath)...

Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Here the high day referenced is the First Day of Unleavened Bread.

The eighth day, the Last Great Day...

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

and is a separate Feast from the Feast of Tabernacles.

The annual Sabbaths are delineated in Lev 23. The actual Command for the weekly Sabbath is found here...

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[john832]

Well, not for nothing, but I DON'T ACCEPT the Gregorian calendar.............way I see it is: Today is July 1st, it's the FIRST day of the Week............so there...........Friday is the LAST day of the Week...........Saturday is the First day of the Weekend and Sunday is the Last day of the Weekend.

Been that way for almost 64 years, I see no need to change now.............

The seventh day of the week is the end of the week and the first day of the week is the beginning. The days begin at sunset and it has been that way for 6000 years and to quote you...

I see no need to change now.............

 

[JimmieD]

What is going on in Lev 23 are the ANNUAL Feast Days...

...which occur on the Sabbath.

Here we see the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread. Passover is on the fourteenth of the first month. The Days of Unleavened Bread begin on the fifteenth and end on the twenty-first day of the month. These are not weekly Sabbaths, they occur only once a year.

And they occur on the Sabbath. The passage directly tells you that. It's hard for someone to be more explicit.

Pentecost is counted from the weekly Sabbath contained in the Days of Unleavened Bread and only occurs once a year.

...and it occurs on the Sabbath. Again, it's pretty explicit.

The Feast of Tabernacles occurs once a year. The first day of the Feast is a high day (an annual Sabbath)...

Jews in the 2nd Temple period were not using the same calendar that Israelites used - hence the need to distinguis "high days" from weekly Sabbaths. There is no distinction in Lev 23 because there is no need. The feast days simply happen on the weekly Sabbath.

The annual Sabbaths are delineated in Lev 23. The actual Command for the weekly Sabbath is found here...

It's also found in Lev 23 - in the very passage we're talking about.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Yes, and those Sabbath days occured on specific days during the month, and the month was based on observations of the moon.

Don't forget Deut 5, where the Sabbath is connected to the Exodus:

5:15 Recall that you were slaves in the land of Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there by strength and power.That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to observethe Sabbath day​

Which is connected with a specific month and specific time of the month:

Deut16:1 Observe the month Abib and keep the Passover to the Lord your God, for in that month he brought you out of Egypt by night

Ex 23:15 You are to observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread; seven days you must eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you, at the appointed time of the month of Abib, for at that time you came out of Egypt.

Lev 23:7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work. 23:8 You must present a gift to the Lord for seven days, and the seventh day is a holy assembly; you must not do any regular work.
​

 

[john832]

What you don't seem to understand is that they do not occur on the weekly Sabbath, they are Sabbaths, so whichever day they fall on becomes an annual Sabbath.

 

[KohenMatt]

They are different now thanks to people like Hillel II. In Leviticus 23 though, there is no difference. There is no regulation in Lev 23 on what to do if the weekly Sabbath is adjacent to a Festival Sabbath (because for Lev 23, that doesn't happen). There is no regulation on "Rules of Postponement" (because for Lev 23, that doesn't happen).

The reason why there are no instructions for Sabbaths adjacent to Feast Days is because it's a moot point. You have the weekly Sabbaths which are their own command. And then you have the annual Feast days. God doesn't need to explain every possible scenario.

The same langugage that is used to describe the Sabbath in Lev 23:3 is the same langage used to describe every Sabbath listed in the passage. There is no difference between the Sabbaths listed in the chapter and the weekly Sabbaths - which is why the chapter starts off by talking about the institution of the weekly Sabbath. The interpretation I'm suggesting doesn't result in having to seperate the meaning and purpose of first 3 verses from the rest of the passage.

23:3 “‘Six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest,a holy assembly. You must not do any work;

23:7 On the first day there will be a holy assembly for you; you must not do any regular work.23:8 You must present a gift to the Lord for seven days, and the seventh day is a holy assembly; you must not do any regular work.’”

23:21 “‘On this very day you must proclaim an assembly; it is to be a holy assembly for you. You must not do any regular work

23:24 “Tell the Israelites, ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you must have a complete rest, a memorial announced by loud horn blasts,a holy assembly . 23:25 You must not do any regular work

23:35 On the first day is a holy assembly; you must do no regular work. 23:36 For seven days you must present a gift to the Lord. On the eighth day there is to be a holy assembly for you, and you must present a gift to the Lord. It is a solemn assembly day;you must not do any regular work.
​

Lev 23:3 tells you that there are to be weelly Sabbaths. The rest of the passage tells you exactly when those Sabbaths occur during the month. There is absolutely no need to seperate vs 3 from what's happening in the rest of the passage. The passage is easy to understand, and works out too coincidentally to be an accident, once it's understood that the author of Lev 23 is using a strictly lunar calendar. There is no reason or warrant for thinking that the Sabbaths in Lev 23 are talking about something different from 23:3.....especially since the Sabbaths in the chapter occur weekly.

Thousands of years of interpretation and practice, as well as the hebrew language would disagree with you.

Again, there are no cultures or generations (at least of any significance) that have celebrated it the way you propose.

 

[JimmieD]

What you don't seem to understand is that they do not occur on the weekly Sabbath, they are Sabbaths, so whichever day they fall on becomes and annual Sabbath.

You keep asserting this, but the evidence says otherwise. In Lev 23 there is no difference in occurence between a weekly Sabbath and Festival Sabbath. The Festival Sabbaths simply occur on the weekly Sabbath.

 

[JimmieD]

Again, there are no cultures or generations (at least of any significance) that have celebrated it the way you propose.

Except the generation that was responsible for Lev 23.

 

[KohenMatt]

You keep asserting this, but the evidence says otherwise. In Lev 23 there is no difference in occurence between a weekly Sabbath and Festival Sabbath. The Festival Sabbaths simply occur on the weekly Sabbath.

Could you work out the math on Shavuot (Pentecost) and tell me when it was supposed to be celebrated, and which dates should be on?

 

[KohenMatt]

Except the generation that was responsible for Lev 23.

And you have evidence of this that would differentiate it from every other generation? Or is it just your personal opinion?

 

[john832]

The reason why there are no instructions for Sabbaths adjacent to Feast Days is because it's a moot point. You have the weekly Sabbaths which are their own command. And then you have the annual Feast days. God doesn't need to explain every possible scenario.




Thousands of years of interpretation and practice, as well as the hebrew language would disagree with you.

Again, there are no cultures or generations (at least of any significance) that have celebrated it the way you propose.

Especially not the Jews. Why is this significant?

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

so God committed the Oracles to the Jews and someone comes along in the twenty-first century and knows more than they know about the Sabbaths, weekly and annual?

 

[john832]

You keep asserting this, but the evidence says otherwise. In Lev 23 there is no difference in occurence between a weekly Sabbath and Festival Sabbath. The Festival Sabbaths simply occur on the weekly Sabbath.

Except that an annual Sabbath is said to occur on a particular day of a particular month. Xmas occurs on how many days a year? I'll bet you have no trouble figuring that out, so apply that thinking to the Feast Days, they occur once a year on a particular date.

 

[JimmieD]

Especially not the Jews. Why is this significant?

Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

so God committed the Oracles to the Jews..?

It's pretty well known that the Jewish calendar changed over time - probably thanks to the later influence of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Selucids, and Romans. You can even see this transformation in the OT itself where the names of the months change to Babylonian names. You can also see it in various places in the Prophets:

Eze 22:8 You have despised my holy things and desecrated my Sabbaths!

Eze22:26 Her priests abuse my law and have desecrated my holy things. They do not distinguish between the holy and the profane,[SUP] [/SUP]or recognize any distinction between the unclean and the clean. They ignore[SUP] [/SUP]my Sabbaths and I am profaned in their midst.

Jer17:21 The Lord says, ‘Be very careful if you value your lives![SUP] [/SUP]Do not carry any loads[SUP] [/SUP]in through[SUP] [/SUP]the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. 17:24 The Lord says,[SUP] [/SUP]‘You must make sure to obey me. You must not bring any loads through the gates of this city on the Sabbath day. You must set the Sabbath day apart to me. You must not do any work on that day.
​

This language is all through the Prophets. It doens't really sound like they were adequately observing and remembering God's oracles.

and someone comes along in the twenty-first century and knows more than they know about the Sabbaths, weekly and annually​

What I'm saying is pretty well documented. It's verifiable that the calendar the Jews use today is the result of development over time.

I also appreciate how you try to potray me as somehow arrogant rather than engaging with the arguments. When all else fails start with the insults and innuendos. Nice touch.

 

[JimmieD]

And you have evidence of this that would differentiate it from every other generation? Or is it just your personal opinion?

I base my concliusions on what they wrote in Lev 23.

I do appreciate how you subtly use the word "opinion" though as if I just conjured this up from nowhere. Nice.