Sabbath

[Cygnus]

Is paul inspired. Did he tell us what Jesus would not say? I thought ALL scripture was inspired (God breathed)

Did Jesus say the law was the means to sanctification?
Did Jesus not say no one is good but God? (I quoted these words)
Did Jesus not say, In this law (the law of love or the two commands) are all the law and prophets (I mentioned these words and this saying)
Did Jesus say we could fulfill the law? I thought he was adamant that no one had done that (except God of course)
Paul quotes Moses. Does moses have a say? Should we not listen to the one who was given the law?

Deuteronomy 27:26 (moses)
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

How about Jesus on the sermon on the mount?

Did Not Jesus say this?

Matt 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. (Jesus came to fulfill) 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Is this not the exact words James said in his epistle?

James 2: 17 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Is jesus here showing a biblical truth here. That these pharisees, WHo were the mother theresa's of their day, and according to the law were the most upright people on earth. tell us we must exceed theres if we are to even have hope?

Then did Not jesus say according to the command. WHich says this. But I tell you. it goes deeper than the command?

first murder:

21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

How about Adultry?

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Or how about swearing oaths?

3 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Systematically Jesus telling us the the letter of the law says this, But we can break the law by doing other stuff not written. Why would he tell us these things unless the law was taken out of context by people (pharisees and people today trying to say we must obey the law by following it) because the law was given to SHOW we are sinners. Not to teach us HOW to be righteous people. It is weak in that area. Although it is PERFECT in the area of bring us all to knowledge we are under a curse and in need of atonement. Which was fulfilled by Christ himself. I can go on and on and on!

so I do not quite understand what you mean as I did speak of christ. But here I gave some more examples. do these help?

This is not the first time this topic has come up. Most start with Paul's words and how works don't get you to heaven. Forgive me if I pointed a finger at you, it was unintentional. I may have been reading higher up or lower down when I hit the reply button. It seems like people avoid the words and Jesus and go directly to Paul. When you remind them what Jesus said they tell you that is not what Paul said and that is not what Jesus meant.

 

[MalikB]

Matthew 24:11-12


11 Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people, 12 and because lawlessness will increase, the love of many people will grow cold.

 

[MalikB]

This is not the first time this topic has come up. Most start with Paul's words and how works don't get you to heaven. Forgive me if I pointed a finger at you, it was unintentional. I may have been reading higher up or lower down when I hit the reply button. It seems like people avoid the words and Jesus and go directly to Paul. When you remind them what Jesus said they tell you that is not what Paul said and that is not what Jesus meant.

I agree. When there seems to be a contradiction between The Messiah's and Paul's writings, many Christians will prioritize Paul over The Messiah without having a clear interpretation of how The Messiahs writings should actually be perceived.

 

[MalikB]

2 Peter 3:17



17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continuously be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

 

[Cygnus]

So let me come at it this from Jesus who said in Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

When the young man asked Jesus about Eternal Life, what did Jesus say? Matthew 19:
16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

People always quote Paul first and not Jesus and I am asking why? Most of the time the first words out of my mouth on this subject is quoting Matthew 5 while other move right to Paul to argue about it. Then the anger starts. You only need to read through the thread to see this. There was a time I fell into this category...

 

[MalikB]

So let me come at it this from Jesus who said in Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

When the young man asked Jesus about Eternal Life, what did Jesus say? Matthew 19:
16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

People always quote Paul first and not Jesus and I am asking why? Most of the time the first words out of my mouth on this subject is quoting Matthew 5 while other move right to Paul to argue about it. Then the anger starts. You only need to read through the thread to see this. There was a time I fell into this category...

We are on the same page. I got met with a lot of aggression very quickly when sharing scripture that I believe supports keeping law after the death.

 

[SophieT]

Only to show his quote that the subject of verses 5-6 proves that the Sabbath is not included.

oh boy

Calvin states the opposite of support for your view...I posted that and you deflected. now you are back to Calvin

from your post 2224:

A footnote in Calvin'sCommentaries regarding verses 5-6: " It has been suggested as a question by some, whether the Christian Sabbath is included here? The very subject in hand proves that it is not."

and I posted remarks by Calvin that illustrate he disagrees with your understanding:

• “The external observance of the Sabbath rest is a Jewish ceremonial ordinance and no longer binding on Christians. Sabbatarians surpass the Jews three times over in a crass and carnal Sabbatarian superstition.” John Calvin

Calvin is saying that Sabbatarians are worse than the Jews three times over in a crass and carnal superstition

I don't think you understand that while you would like to include Calvin in your opinions, he actually REFUTES what you say

John Calvin concerning the Sabbath
“First, therefore, God rested; then He blessed this rest, that in all ages it might be held sacred among men: or He dedicated every seventh day to rest, that his own example might be a perpetual rule. The design of the institution must be always kept in memory: for God did not command men simply to keep holiday every seventh day, as if he delighted in their indolence; but rather that they, being released from all other business, might the more readily apply their minds to the Creator of the world.

Lastly, that is a sacred rest, which withdraws men from the impediments of the world, that it may dedicate them entirely to God. But now, since men are so backward to celebrate the justice, wisdom, and power of God, and to consider his benefits, that even when they are most faithfully admonished they still remain torpid, no slight stimulus is given by God’s own example, and the very precept itself is thereby rendered amiable. For God cannot either more gently allure, or more effectually incite us to obedience, than by inviting and exhorting us to the imitation of Himself. Besides, we must know, that this is to be the common employment not of one age or people only, but of the whole human race.

Afterwards, in the Law, a new precept concerning the Sabbath was given, which should be peculiar to the Jews, and but for a season; because it was a legal ceremony shadowing forth a spiritual rest, the truth of which was manifested in Christ. Therefore the Lord the more frequently testifies that He had given, in the Sabbath, a symbol of sanctification to his ancient people.

Therefore when we hear that the Sabbath was abrogated by the coming of Christ, we must distinguish between what belongs to the perpetual government of human life, and what properly belongs to ancient figures, the use of which was abolished when the truth was fulfilled. Spiritual rest is the mortification of the flesh; so that the sons of God should no longer live unto themselves, or indulge their own inclination. So far as the Sabbath was a figure of this rest, I say, it was but for a season; but inasmuch as it was commanded to men from the beginning that they might employ themselves in the worship of God, it is right that it should continue to the end of the world.”

so Calvin is saying that he does believe in a 'day of rest', but does not believe that the Sabbath of the OT should be continued. He states above, the use of the Sabbath as pertains to the law, was ABOLISHED when the TRUTH (Jesus death and resurrection and salvation through faith by the grace of God ALONE)

stop trying to confuse what is stated

 

[SophieT]

Not true... I just dont believe your interpretation of gospel.

you have changed what the Bible states clearly actually IS the gospel

it is obvious what you believe

Jesus was not a Sabbatarian and He did not equate salvation with works. that, is your doing and the troupe of fellow Sabbatarians that have joined the forum to compliment your postings

 

[SophieT]

We are on the same page. I got met with a lot of aggression very quickly when sharing scripture that I believe supports keeping law after the death.

you got met with the truth of the Bible and it does not fit your personal Sabbatarian/law keeping practices

 

[SophieT]

The law does not condemn... sin does. Keep the law = blessings, break the law (sin) = curses.... Its that simple

let's see....if you break the law in any way, even in your thoughts according to Jesus, then you have sinned

so without the law, as scripture states, we could excuse our sin...so, your premise is wrong

Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. Romans 3:20

the law makes you aware of sin...the opposite of what you say

 

[SophieT]

I've invited both of you more than once to have a discussion about any specific verse that you believe supports lawless theology. No one gave me one. I also asked for the interpretation of Matthew 5:18 and 19.... specifically how a place in heaven is determined by laws done and taught. Noone did that either. If we cant honestly and openly discuss specific verses in scripture, there is nowhere to go from there.

you just joined this past Sunday...here less than a week and you want to run things

there are myriads of threads about Sabbath keeping along with hundreds of scripture references that illustrate the fallacy of Sabbath keeping as dictated by folks like you, who would like to prove that Christians are wrong

you cannot prove Christians are wrong because you promote a false gospel and a false Christ who is not Christ the Son of God, but a weak character who needs your help to secure your salvation

please...the irony of you stating that others cannot honestly and openly discuss specific verses in scripture is just too over the top

I will also add, that you cannot cherry pick verses that you believe support your premise. look up the word context

 

[SophieT]

How did he keep the sabbath? by not working, by following exodus 20:8-11. His motivation was his love, respect, honor for his Father.

Do you believe he was sinless? If so that means he kept Torah. He did not break laws.

and yet Jesus did break the Sabbath, by healing, he also reminded the Pharisees of how David broke the Sabbath and then Jesus called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath

your understanding is so flawed there are no words to adequately describe it

JESUS BROKE THE SABBATH DUDE

Jesus was sinless, you and I are not

 

[MalikB]

you have changed what the Bible states clearly actually IS the gospel

it is obvious what you believe

Jesus was not a Sabbatarian and He did not equate salvation with works. that, is your doing and the troupe of fellow Sabbatarians that have joined the forum to compliment your postings

If you don't have a specific verse to address then it is all empty claims. I'm not sure what all is included in this Sabbatarian title, but The Messiah kept and taught the law... the Sabbath included.

 

[MalikB]

you got met with the truth of the Bible and it does not fit your personal Sabbatarian/law keeping practices

Chapter and verse?

 

[rstrats]

oh boy

Calvin states the opposite of support for your view... QUOTE]


My view is that Romans 14 is not talking about the Sabbath.

Calvin wrote: "It has been suggested as a question by some, whether the Christian Sabbath is included here? The very subject in hand proves that it is not."

I don't understand how you can say that his view that the Sabbath is not included is the opposite of my view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've invited both of you more than once to have a discussion about any specific verse that you believe supports lawless theology. No one gave me one. I also asked for the interpretation of Matthew 5:18 and 19.... specifically how a place in heaven is determined by laws done and taught. Noone did that either. If we cant honestly and openly discuss specific verses in scripture, there is nowhere to go from there.

Yeah your right. I have not discussed any scripture at all
dude you just hurt yourself by trying to say something that is Not true. I have been posting scripture all day

 

[SophieT]

@ rstrats

look

I have no clue what you are trying to say

you didn't use the quote feature properly and your post is not making sense

try again if you find it important to do so

 

[SophieT]

Chapter and verse?

your response to what I said:

SophieT said:
you got met with the truth of the Bible and it does not fit your personal Sabbatarian/law keeping practices

there is nothing about the Sabbatarians in the Bible. what chapter and verse? do you have your own Bible?

 

[SophieT]

If you don't have a specific verse to address then it is all empty claims. I'm not sure what all is included in this Sabbatarian title, but The Messiah kept and taught the law... the Sabbath included.

people have addressed you with scripture multiple times and you ignore it

when you are ready to discuss the verses posted by others, a proper discussion might be had

Jesus broke this Sabbath law you are so insistent on. you ignore it. you cannot expect people to take you seriously when you do things like that

Jesus Heals on the Sabbath
3 Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus. Mark 3


see that? the Pharisees became angry because Jesus didn't follow their fake Sabbath day worship

sound familiar?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How did he keep the sabbath? by not working, by following exodus 20:8-11. His motivation was his love, respect, honor for his Father.

Do you believe he was sinless? If so that means he kept Torah. He did not break laws.

I know he was sinless he fulfilled the law. By the law of love. NOT by the law of Moses, that’s not why it was given. It was given to confine all under sin. We t was given not for the righteous but the sinner. You have been shown these passages over and over