Sabbath

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Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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As I said, it probably is. You certainly make a good case there.

The things that give me pause are that a person can be under more than one Covenant at a time, so under the old Covenant the Israelites were actually under more than one Covenant.

So is the Covenant that Jesus is referring to when he says this is the New Covenant in my blood is that the same one that Jeremiah is talking about? The other thing that gives me pause is isn't it in Jeremiah that he says he makes the Covenant with the house of Israel?
Yes he does say with Israyl, and from Exodus to the NT it says Gentiles that keep the Passover (Yahshua) are a part of Israyl...(Numbers 15:15-16, Exodus 12:47-49)

Hebrews, the passage I qouted earlier makes it clear that Jeremiah is indeed talking about the Covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah...

Psalm 89 and 105 make it clear exactly wha this covenant is, the issue is mainline doctrine is so far from what all these Scriptures say most will ignore what is clearly written to hold on to traditional thinking. Honeslty, I did for years, it was hard to accpet PS 89 and 105 after being told different for many years. Thing is the human mind, thinks the meaning of PS 89 and 105 somehow downgrade the Messsiah, however when really understood, IMO make Him and His works that much more special and the long term of YHWH that much more impressive...

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Aḇraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

Jeremiah 31:33, “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Yisra’yl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people.”

The Covenant stands fast with the Messiah:

Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

Psalms 132:11-12,11 יהוה has sworn in truth to Dawiḏ; He does not turn from it, “Of the fruit of your body I set upon your throne."12 “If your sons guard My covenant And My witnesses that I teach them, Their sons shall sit upon your throne forever.”"

"I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever"

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of YHWH and of His Messiah; and He will reign forever and ever."

Hebrews 1:8-14,8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever, a sceptre of straightness is the sceptre of Your reign."9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. Because of this, Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” Psa 45:6-7."10 And, “You, Master, did found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands."11 “They shall perish, but You remain. And they shall all grow old like a garment,"12 and like a mantle You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.” Psa 102:25-27."13 And to which of the messengers did He ever say, “Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”? Psa 110:1."14 Are they not all serving spirits sent out to attend those who are about to inherit deliverance?"
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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that is not what i said at all.

Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread — which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the sabbath and yet are innocent?"
(Matthew 12:3-5)
Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
(Mark 2:25-26)
Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.
(Luke 6:3-4)

how about you take this context and explain what it means, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" --- because these things are what He said when He declared it.
it is better to arrive at a conclusion for yourself then to have someone tell you.
Why are the priests blameless?

Because they are doing the will of YHWH... The purpose and intent of the Sabbath (see Isa 58)

Why was Yahshua blameless? because He was doing the will of YHWH...

The Sabbath is a blessing that is a "holy convocation" at an "Appointed time" it is thus the time YHWH says to "Set apart" for HIm and His will. It is a blessing because it is a time for humans to connect with YHWH. Not that humans cant connect on other days but this is the time He says to set aside for Him and His will....
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Yes, one law for Israel and the stranger who lives among them. This of course, being in the old Covenant. But we are not strangers. That could be a factor.

I agree that God's house was to be a house of prayer for All Peoples. That house is no longer around. we know that it is neither on this mountain or that mountain that we need to pray and seek God.
In Isa 56 it says "I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off."

Daniel 7:25, “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change appointed times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

Also the Sabbath is kept in the Kingdom forever:

Isaiah 66:22, “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand."Isaiah 66:23, “And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bPossible meaning: Every week on the Sabbath."Isaiah 66:24, “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”

Also Yahshua said "till heaven and earth pass nothing will pass from the Law" and "Lawful do right on Sabbath"

and the strangers... we were before we knew Yahshua, just as they were before they knew Him... The ceased to be strangers when they kept Passover... because as a native of the land...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Why are the priests blameless?

Because they are doing the will of YHWH... The purpose and intent of the Sabbath (see Isa 58)

Why was Yahshua blameless? because He was doing the will of YHWH...

The Sabbath is a blessing that is a "holy convocation" at an "Appointed time" it is thus the time YHWH says to "Set apart" for HIm and His will. It is a blessing because it is a time for humans to connect with YHWH. Not that humans cant connect on other days but this is the time He says to set aside for Him and His will....
what i quoted for you are the facts which lead to the conclusion that man was not made for the sabbath.
it is useful to work that out. work that out.


the purpose of the sabbaths are for a sign, so that Israel know that it is the LORD which sanctifies them.
Isaiah 58 doesn't state a purpose. Ezekiel 20:12, Exodus 31:13 explicitly state the purpose of the sabbaths. you know that.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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I believe your question was can you love your neighbor and still end up breaking one of the Ten Commandments, and I understood that to mean the letter of The Commandments.

So in healing on the Sabbath, Jesus equates that with the priests who Minister on the Sabbath, thus breaking the letter of the law.

We don't know why the man was gathering sticks on the Sabbath. It doesn't say if he was doing it for himself, or to help a poor Widow.

But certainly, go with the intent of the law! In my view, the intent of the Sabbath is to teach us to trust in God, that we don't have to work every waking moment. And of course the bigger picture, that salvation, rest, is not attained through our own labors.
but Yahshia said the priest were blameless not the broke the Law but it wa OK. YHWH Commanded them to do His will... True we dont know the intent of the stick guy, but stand firm in saying it was not doing Yah;s will nor was he helping others, look at the passage:33And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation. 34They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him. 35And the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” I trust the Most High knew his heart and exactly what was going on. Finally true we do not obtain salvation through our own deeds, only by His power and mercy, yet this is not reason or instruction to abolish His Commands or ignore them in any manner. Mercy does not command a ceasing of living the right way.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Isaiah 66:22, “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand."Isaiah 66:23, “And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bPossible meaning: Every week on the Sabbath."Isaiah 66:24, “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
(Revelation 21:23)


please explain to me how we will celebrate and keep the new moon festival in eternity ..?
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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what i quoted for you are the facts which lead to the conclusion that man was not made for the sabbath.
it is useful to work that out. work that out.


the purpose of the sabbaths are for a sign, so that Israel know that it is the LORD which sanctifies them.
Isaiah 58 doesn't state a purpose. Ezekiel 20:12, Exodus 31:13 explicitly state the purpose of the sabbaths. you know that.
Isa 58 is purpose by explicit instruction IMO.

The "owth" verses are purpose by general "Set apartness" if you will...

I am no stranger to the mark of YHWH in Scriptrue.

Ezekiel 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a *sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am YHWH Who sanctifies them."

*Sign is Word #H226, Hebrew Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.

Add in Isaiah 56:1-7 and we see it is for all humans...
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
(Revelation 21:23)


please explain to me how we will celebrate and keep the new moon festival in eternity ..?
Well im not there so I cant say for sure, but I trust that YHWH will know since He says we will do it:

Isaiah 66:22, “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand."Isaiah 66:23, “And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bPossible meaning: Every week on the Sabbath."Isaiah 66:24, “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”

however if we consult ALL Scripture there is not a clear answer but insight:

Isaiah 60:20, “No longer does your sun go down, nor your moon withdraw itself, for יהוה shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended.”

bottom line like I said, I think Yah knows when...
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
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Looks like we're working with a different text for Psalm 110. The one that the King James is based on, and I think most translations today says the Lord, as in Divine name, says to my Lord as in master.
We are working from two different Bible versions. Unfortunately, my link to the Psalms URL overlapped with the Jewish Encyclopedia link.
I used the Complete Jewish Bible version so as to arrive as closely as possible to the original Hebrew text of the OT.
This link should work. https://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/psalms/110.html


https://www.biblestudytools.com/search/?s=references&q=Adonai
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Well im not there so I cant say for sure, but I trust that YHWH will know since He says we will do it:

Isaiah 66:22, “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand."Isaiah 66:23, “And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bPossible meaning: Every week on the Sabbath."Isaiah 66:24, “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”

however if we consult ALL Scripture there is not a clear answer but insight:

Isaiah 60:20, “No longer does your sun go down, nor your moon withdraw itself, for יהוה shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended.”

bottom line like I said, I think Yah knows when...

Isaiah 66:22, if it is proof sabbath will be observe in eternity, then it is proof that new moon will be observed for exactly the same reasoning.
but you show me, Isaiah just two chapters before, says the moon does not withdraw itself at this time. therefore there is no new moon to be observed - because its appointed time is when the moon withdraws.
therefore Isaiah 66:22 is not speaking of the observance of days.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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Isaiah 66:22, if it is proof sabbath will be observe in eternity, then it is proof that new moon will be observed for exactly the same reasoning.
but you show me, Isaiah just two chapters before, says the moon does not withdraw itself at this time. therefore there is no new moon to be observed - because its appointed time is when the moon withdraws.
therefore Isaiah 66:22 is not speaking of the observance of days.
Isaiah 60:19-21,19 “No longer is the sun your light by day, nor does the moon give light to you for brightness, but יהוה shall be to you an everlasting light, and your Elohim your comeliness."20 “No longer does your sun go down, nor your moon withdraw itself, for יהוה shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended."21 “And your people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the earth forever – a branch of My planting, a work of My hands, to be adorned."

I think YHWH ca neasily calculate the moon and the Sabbaths with or without the moon cycles.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Isaiah 60:19-21,19 “No longer is the sun your light by day, nor does the moon give light to you for brightness, but יהוה shall be to you an everlasting light, and your Elohim your comeliness."20 “No longer does your sun go down, nor your moon withdraw itself, for יהוה shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended."21 “And your people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the earth forever – a branch of My planting, a work of My hands, to be adorned."

I think YHWH ca neasily calculate the moon and the Sabbaths with or without the moon cycles.
remember a few months ago, you claimed that you do not teach Sabbath for salvation? well, it is very safe to say you told a big fat one when you said that...………...
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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remember a few months ago, you claimed that you do not teach Sabbath for salvation? well, it is very safe to say you told a big fat one when you said that...………...
LOL!

Ok quote where I said the Sabbath saves people...

Or are you making up false accusations?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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LOL!

Ok quote where I said the Sabbath saves people...

Or are you making up false accusations?
o.k, so it is not necessary to keep the Sabbath for a someone who trusts Christ for salvation? yes or no??
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Actually, I think the words in Exodus 20 relate specifically to the Covenant that God made with Israel.
John 4:
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Rom. 11:
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. (Are these not the examples of Faith)
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, (Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom. 2:
28 For he is not a Jew,(Israelite) which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew,(Israelite) which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Passover is also part of this "Covenant". I don't believe a man can bypass Passover, and go into Heaven another way. I think we must "Deny our self" and take Hold of His Covenant with Israel. So then we too, can be grafted in AMONG THEM, and become like them inwardly. Not like those who rejected His Word because of unbelief and were broken off, but those who continued in the Goodness of God and HIS Love. Chapter 11 of Hebrews speaks of the Faithful "branches".

Paul explains.

Rom. 11:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

I don't believe there is another way into the Kingdom.

Zech. 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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o.k, so it is not necessary to keep the Sabbath for a someone who trusts Christ for salvation? yes or no??
While I do believe transgression of the Sabbath is a sin, so is stealing, lying, murder, adultery, etc. Yet all of these can be forgiven, just as transgreession of the Sabbath can be forgiven. We have all sinned, and need mercy. All those in Messiah will have their sins forgiven, and thus enter the Kingdom.

1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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No, I believe you have misunderstood what I wrote.

Eternal life is something that Jesus will give to people. making them an immortal God is not something he will do.

So it's a combination of what you asked for, and what you think your role in it will be.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So you don't believe the Messiah is an immortal God?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Yes, Jesus Christ is the word made flesh.

He is not the same in every respect as Yahweh, unless Jesus sits at his own right hand and talks to himself.
You are Right, The Messiah sit's at the right hand of the Father. But it was the Messiah which created all things. It was the Christ who said:

"I am the Lord your God". At least this is what the scriptures say. And I have no reason to doubt them.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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While I do believe transgression of the Sabbath is a sin, so is stealing, lying, murder, adultery, etc. Yet all of these can be forgiven, just as transgreession of the Sabbath can be forgiven. We have all sinned, and need mercy. All those in Messiah will have their sins forgiven, and thus enter the Kingdom.

1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."
but, since gentiles were never under the Law, they ( myself included ) were never told to keep it.

see, Jesus said " whosoever believes in Me shall have eternal life, he who does not believe is condemned ".

nothing about Sabbath keeping.