Salvation by Faith and Works?

[cronjecj]

We obey the commandments of Christ through faith.

Without faith we cannot obey the commandments of Jesus..

And faith comes by hearing the word and Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.

1.Love your God with all your heart, strength and mind. (fulfills the first 4 commandments)

2.Love your neighbor as thyself. (fulfills the last 6 commandments)

Do the above and ye shall inherit everlasting life.

 

[feedm3]

Those who doth not the will of our Father in heaven has not the Holy Spirit in them to start with.. (they were false, wolves in sheep's clothing)

I agree, meaning one who believes without obedience to the gospel does not have salvation.

So that means salvation does not come due to faith (belief) alone.

Because if they had the Spirit, Christ would have finished the work (the will of the Father) what He started in them through His Spirit as He has promised he would in His word.

Not quite getting you here. Christ said "it is finished" He finished the work that was given to Him by the Father.

and no, I am not looking to argue; you?

 

[jonathanbchristian]

James is not talking about salvation, it is talking about Christian works. The difference is that we are saved by faith not of works lest any man should boast but our works as Christians are tried by God when we are judged. Wood, hay, and stubble are not good works, we need to work the works of gold and silver.

 

[feedm3]

James is not talking about salvation, it is talking about Christian works. The difference is that we are saved by faith not of works lest any man should boast but our works as Christians are tried by God when we are judged. Wood, hay, and stubble are not good works, we need to work the works of gold and silver.

Well if not concerning salvation, these "christian works" sure have an impact on ones faith. Can we be saved while having "dead faith"? please tell me.

 

[cronjecj]

I agree, meaning one who believes without obedience to the gospel does not have salvation.

So that means salvation does not come due to faith (belief) alone.
Not quite getting you here. Christ said "it is finished" He finished the work that was given to Him by the Father.

and no, I am not looking to argue; you?

i meant the work in us (working in progress) through His Spirit.............. not the work what Christ did at the cross at Calvary (work finished)

Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Hi wakeup. lol

no

 

[cronjecj]

Well if not concerning salvation, these "christian works" sure have an impact on ones faith. Can we be saved while having "dead faith"? please tell me.

ill tell you, no you cannot be saved when one has dead faith..

We have to believe first then Jesus sends the Comforter and then the Comforter leads us into all truth..

Is there a problem here?

 

[feedm3]

ill tell you, no you cannot be saved when one has dead faith..

Well then you admit that James is speaking of works THAT ARE concerning Salvation.

How can one say "we are not saved by works"
Then say "we are not saved by dead faith" when it is the lack of works that produces dead faith?

You are not making sense.

Is there a problem here?

Yes, that is the problem, YOU ARE NOT MAKING SENSE.

 

[cronjecj]

Well then you admit that James is speaking of works THAT ARE concerning Salvation.

How can one say "we are not saved by works"
Then say "we are not saved by dead faith" when it is the lack of works that produces dead faith?

You are not making sense.

Yes, that is the problem, YOU ARE NOT MAKING SENSE.

You have ignored this statement made so may times before: good deeds are the result of faith.

Faith without works are dead. im not ignorant of this.

But it's not my problem that you fail to believe that what Christ began in us He will finish.

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

 

[RedTent]

I like very much the guidelines most of you are giving for understanding scripture. Because we are so mixed up about Faith and Works, and all of the side issues it brings up, I think it is so very important we do all we can to get in line with our Creator, to separate all of men's ideas on the subject and live in tune with the reality of God.

I read every single scripture with the word "law" in it. Every one is God breathed, every one must fit to make a true and complete picture. It was like opening a door to truth!

Another way I found was to dig into history of how we got ourselves in this mess. We say the Jews are trying to work their way to heaven and such strange ideas, the Jews say we are pagan worshippers because our Christ does not fit the Messiah of scripture so is man made. They read that Christ is a Warrior, as opposed to our Meek and Milk picture. OK, so I am exaggerating to make a point! Each is so incomplete a picture that both has a point.

If you read the history of the church in the first years AD, the ideas are such a distortion of scripture that the way back to God is plain to see. For instance, the ideas brought about by the Kokhba Revolt. For 135 years christian leaders were Jewish, then gentiles took over with lots of anti Judaism. Clement, Origen, Eusebius, or Justin had strange bible interpretations and we are still influenced by them today. The laws of the christian Roman Emperor Constantine are an eye opener, as you relate them to today's thinking. Luther was quite an influence.

I think, for God it is simple. God is too holy for us to even imagine being as rightous, it requires His grace. At the same time, we cannot do without repentance to keep in that grace. Simple.

 

[RedTent]

I like very much the guidelines most of you are giving for understanding scripture. Because we are so mixed up about Faith and Works, and all of the side issues it brings up, I think it is so very important we do all we can to get in line with our Creator, to separate all of men's ideas on the subject and live in tune with the reality of God.

I read every single scripture with the word "law" in it. Every one is God breathed, every one must fit to make a true and complete picture. It was like opening a door to truth!

Another way I found was to dig into history of how we got ourselves in this mess. We say the Jews are trying to work their way to heaven and such strange ideas, the Jews say we are pagan worshippers because our Christ does not fit the Messiah of scripture so is man made. They read that Christ is a Warrior, as opposed to our Meek and Mild picture. OK, so I am exaggerating to make a point! Often each is so incomplete a picture that both has a point.

If you read the history of the church in the first years AD, the ideas are such a distortion of scripture that the way back to God is plain to see. For instance, the ideas brought about by the Kokhba Revolt. For 135 years christian leaders were Jewish, then gentiles took over with lots of anti Judaism. Clement, Origen, Eusebius, or Justin had strange bible interpretations and we are still influenced by them today. The laws of the christian Roman Emperor Constantine are an eye opener, as you relate them to today's thinking. Luther was quite an influence.

I think, for God it is simple. God is too holy for us to even imagine being as rightous, it requires His grace. At the same time, we cannot do without repentance to keep in that grace. Simple.

 

[feedm3]

You have ignored this statement made so may times before: good deeds are the result of faith.

Faith without works are dead. im not ignorant of this.

And you agree what we cannot be saved by dead faith, then you say we are saved by faith only. EVEN THOUGH IT IS A LACK OF WORKS THAT PRODUCES "DEAD FAITH"
You still have not cleared up this contraction.

But it's not my problem that you fail to believe that what Christ began in us He will finish.

What do you mean?
Salvation?
Don't you know those believers told to "depart" is the end?
He is finishing what he started.

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

What part of this are you not getting?
We are not saved because we deserve Christ to die for our sins, but do you think this means we do not have to obey what is commanded?
According to His Mercy" that's the point, not anything we have done to deserve salvation, baptism will not make us deserve anything, it is an answer of obedience.

NOW please clear up your contradiction above because you still are not making sense until you clear that one up.

WAS PAUL SAVED BEFORE HE HAD HIS SINS WASHED AWAY?
DID ANANIAS UNDERSTAND WHEN ONES SINS ARE WASHED AWAY?
DO WE HAVE TO BE IN CHRIST TO BE SAVED?
HOW DO WE GET IN CHRIST?
DO WE HAVE TO BE FREED FROM SIN? HOW?

I HAVE ASKED YOU THIS OVER AND OVER AND EVERY TIME YOU WAIT AND RESPOND TO SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD OF DEFENDING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
I WILL ANSWER WHATEVER YOU WANT AND ALREADY PROVED THAT------YOUR TURN.

 

[cronjecj]

What part of this are you not getting?
We are not saved because we deserve Christ to die for our sins, but do you think this means we do not have to obey what is commanded?

We obey the commandments of Jesus because we have faith in Him. (i stated this earlier)

According to His Mercy" that's the point, not anything we have done to deserve salvation, baptism will not make us deserve anything, it is an answer of obedience.

Agreed.

NOW please clear up your contradiction above because you still are not making sense until you clear that one up.

Faith and obeying the commandments of Jesus goes hand in hand, you cannot have the one without the other.

WAS PAUL SAVED BEFORE HE HAD HIS SINS WASHED AWAY?

No.

DID ANANIAS UNDERSTAND WHEN ONES SINS ARE WASHED AWAY?

Yes.

DO WE HAVE TO BE IN CHRIST TO BE SAVED?

Yes.

HOW DO WE GET IN CHRIST?

By believing in Christ and by believing we receive the Holy Spirit (born of Spirit)

DO WE HAVE TO BE FREED FROM SIN? HOW?

Yes, by the blood of the Lamb.

I HAVE ASKED YOU THIS OVER AND OVER AND EVERY TIME YOU WAIT AND RESPOND TO SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD OF DEFENDING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.
I WILL ANSWER WHATEVER YOU WANT AND ALREADY PROVED THAT------YOUR TURN.

WHY ARE YOU WRITING IN CAPITALS?

 

[feedm3]

WHY ARE YOU WRITING IN CAPITALS?

because I have to repeat the same thing over and over to you, MAYBE CANT SEE LOWERCASE

 

[cronjecj]

because I have to repeat the same thing over and over to you, MAYBE CANT SEE LOWERCASE

guess you missed the part in red...

 

[feedm3]

WAS PAUL SAVED BEFORE HE HAD HIS SINS WASHED AWAY?

No.

If no, then how was he saved by faith alone? His sins were not washed away when he met Christ on the road to Damascus, but when he was baptized.
How do you explain this?

DID ANANIAS UNDERSTAND WHEN ONES SINS ARE WASHED AWAY?

Yes.

Then why do you say that it is at the point of belief knowing and understanding this passage?

DO WE HAVE TO BE IN CHRIST TO BE SAVED?

Yes.

HOW DO WE GET IN CHRIST?

By believing in Christ and by believing we receive the Holy Spirit (born of Spirit)

You know why you have no scripture here, because those are your words.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Which should I believe?
We are baptized INTO Christ, that is what the Bible says.

DO WE HAVE TO BE FREED FROM SIN? HOW?

Yes, by the blood of the Lamb.

So are these passages in contraction?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This shows how we contact the blood of Christ and are made free from sin.

Im sure you will reject this as well, but you are in contradiction with yourself.
Inconsistency is the first sign of a flawed interpretation.

 

[cronjecj]

If no, then how was he saved by faith alone? His sins were not washed away when he met Christ on the road to Damascus, but when he was baptized.

How do you explain this?

True baptism is the Holy Spirit baptism which is a gift of God, you do not only receive the Holy Spirit by getting wet and there are scriptures that supports this.

Then why do you say that it is at the point of belief knowing and understanding this passage?
You know why you have no scripture here, because those are your words.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Which should I believe?
We are baptized INTO Christ, that is what the Bible says.
So are these passages in contraction?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Once again the true baptism is the Holy Spirit baptism, it is a gift of God not just by getting wet. Some receive the gift of the Holy Spirit by been baptized with water and some receive the Holy Spirit by calling upon His name and believing in Him.

Mark 1:8 (KJV)
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Made the input in red....

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28)

 

[feedm3]

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28)

Love that passage, yet it does not explain this:

Quote:
WAS PAUL SAVED BEFORE HE HAD HIS SINS WASHED AWAY?

No.

If no, then how was he saved by faith alone? His sins were not washed away when he met Christ on the road to Damascus, but when he was baptized.
How do you explain this?

Quote:
DID ANANIAS UNDERSTAND WHEN ONES SINS ARE WASHED AWAY?

Yes.

Then why do you say that it is at the point of belief knowing and understanding this passage?

Can really not see the contraction you are making, or are you purposely ignoring it and pretending that there is no contradiction?
Can you explain this or not?
You cannot have it both ways.
According to Acts 22:16, was Paul saved at the point of belief or when he had his sins washed away?

 

[cronjecj]

Love that passage, yet it does not explain this:

Quote:
WAS PAUL SAVED BEFORE HE HAD HIS SINS WASHED AWAY?

If no, then how was he saved by faith alone? His sins were not washed away when he met Christ on the road to Damascus, but when he was baptized.
How do you explain this?

Quote:
DID ANANIAS UNDERSTAND WHEN ONES SINS ARE WASHED AWAY?

Then why do you say that it is at the point of belief knowing and understanding this passage?

Can really not see the contraction you are making, or are you purposely ignoring it and pretending that there is no contradiction?
Can you explain this or not?
You cannot have it both ways.
According to Acts 22:16, was Paul saved at the point of belief or when he had his sins washed away?

Paul indeed got baptized and Jesus washed away his sins. Jesus baptized him with the Holy Spirit either by the immersion of water or believing and calling upon the name of the Lord.

There are scriptures that supports water baptism for the washing away of sins and their are scriptures that supports the moment one believe their faith are made whole.

 

[feedm3]

Paul indeed got baptized and Jesus washed away his sins. Jesus baptized him with the Holy Spirit either by the immersion of water or believing and calling upon the name of the Lord.

According to this passages being baptized is calling upon the name of the Lord (read it again)
There is no reason to assume this was Holy Spirit baptism, but you can if you want.

There are scriptures that supports water baptism for the washing away of sins and their are scriptures that supports the moment one believe their faith are made whole.

[/quote]

Your right here, so what does that mean to us?
Both are needed, we do not choose one or the other, we carry out both.

Now your saying we can be saved two different ways, belief alone, Holy Spirit baptism.
Paul was saved Just like the Jews in Acts 2,
"what shall we do" - The non-Christian Jews, Acts 2:37
"just believe"- you
"repent and be baptized" - Peter Acts 2:38.

 

[cronjecj]

According to this passages being baptized is calling upon the name of the Lord (read it again)
There is no reason to assume this was Holy Spirit baptism, but you can if you want.

Your right here, so what does that mean to us?
Both are needed, we do not choose one or the other, we carry out both.

Now your saying we can be saved two different ways, belief alone, Holy Spirit baptism.
Paul was saved Just like the Jews in Acts 2,
"what shall we do" - The non-Christian Jews, Acts 2:37
"just believe"- you
"repent and be baptized" - Peter Acts 2:38.

Faith scriptures,

faith made whole (Mark 10:52)
Her faith was made whole (Mark 5:34) (Matthew 9:22)
He believed (Mark 9:24)
Believe on Him (John 6:29)
Access into His grace by faith (Romans 5:2)
Justified by faith (Romans 1:17)
works are the result of faith (James 2:18)
saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)
Faith is the substance of things hoped for (Hebrews 11:1)

How to obtain faith?

Only believe (Mark 5:36)
Repent and believe (Mark 1:15)
Only believe and ye shall be made whole (Luke 8:50)
Faith comes by hearing the word (Romans 10:17)
Receive and believe on Him (John 1:12)
He that believes on Him is not condemned (John 3:28)
Confessing Jesus Christ with thy mouth (Romans 10:9)
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21) Romans 10:13)
All that call upon the name of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:2)