I'm not looking at it from any perspective. You are the one making the statement. I don't know about a Church saying this, but this is the first time I heard such a statment ever, that there are two kinds of sins, fleshly and spiritual and baptism is only for the spiritual. So, I asked a question, how does one eliminate the fleshly sins, if not by baptism. You made the statment, so I assume you have an answer.
Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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So since faith is a work:
1 Thessalonians 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
it was Abraham's righteous works that increased his faith that resulted in his righteous work that save him, so you see, you (or Abraham) could not get around "righteous works", God will not "obey for you"
There is nothing God cannot do, but I can tell you what He will not do, He will not obey Christ for you.
You arrogantly believe because Christ died for you, that you can lounge around until you die or He comes again, without obeying Him, total disregard for what He did for you, and think He will obey His own laws for you, you my friend are in for a rude awakening.
1 Thessalonians 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
it was Abraham's righteous works that increased his faith that resulted in his righteous work that save him, so you see, you (or Abraham) could not get around "righteous works", God will not "obey for you"
There is nothing God cannot do, but I can tell you what He will not do, He will not obey Christ for you.
You arrogantly believe because Christ died for you, that you can lounge around until you die or He comes again, without obeying Him, total disregard for what He did for you, and think He will obey His own laws for you, you my friend are in for a rude awakening.
Christ has given us His word, if you chose not to obey it, you will have to deal with the wrath, you can reject Jesus, and he will forgive you, you can reject God and He will forgive you, but when you reject the written word of God (the revelation witnessed by the Holy Spirit, also known today as the bible) you will not be forgiven...
You must obey the Gospel or be judged by it :
Matthew 12:32 (NKJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
John 12:48 (NKJV)
[SUP]48 [/SUP]He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
You must obey the Gospel or be judged by it :
Matthew 12:32 (NKJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
John 12:48 (NKJV)
[SUP]48 [/SUP]He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
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No actually you have, Because as I said, I have proven it at least 3 times if not four. I know you have read it (again your not fooling anyone) so it is on you.
Yes I am. What is the law of Christ?
No more condemnation. My sins have been removed, I am secure in him. And because of this, I have been given to power to be like him.
Your under the law of moses, because you still have not condemned yourself with it to the point you will repent.
I never said he would. But obeying the law of Christ will not save me either, I first must be saved BEFORE I can even understand the law of Christ, Let alone be given the POWER to do it.
E
what you think your sly? Who said there were spiritual sins? the only person I heard claim this was you. Now your saying it was me?? Wow.
Any other bright ideas??
All sins are commited against God. Which means our spiritual souls are dead/. Unless our spiritual souls are cleansed, We are doomed to eternity apart from God.
No physical baptism in water can was our spiritual souls. They can only be cleansed BY GOD.
You reject the word of God,
Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
There is no clearer scripture in all of Gods word that one must be baptized to be saved, and all you think you need to do is the same as devils, believe.
You're right when you say all you need to do is believe on Him, what is sad is you have not clue what it means to "believe on Him" it means to do and keep 'ALL' His commands. you cannot believe on someone and reject His word.
Works are nothing more than a by-product of Faith in the living God, creator of all.
Abrahan believed God and so did Noah, there works were a by-product of their Faith
[h=3]Hebrews 11[/h]Living Bible (TLB)
11 What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Men of God in days of old were famous for their faith.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith—by believing God—we know that the world and the stars—in fact, all things—were made at God’s command; and that they were all made from things that can’t be seen.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]It was by faith that Abel obeyed God and brought an offering that pleased God more than Cain’s offering did. God accepted Abel and proved it by accepting his gift; and though Abel is long dead, we can still learn lessons from him about trusting God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Enoch trusted God too, and that is why God took him away to heaven without dying; suddenly he was gone because God took him. Before this happened God had said[SUP][b][/SUP] how pleased he was with Enoch. [SUP]6 [/SUP]You can never please God without faith, without depending on him. Anyone who wants to come to God must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely look for him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Noah was another who trusted God. When he heard God’s warning about the future, Noah believed him even though there was then no sign of a flood, and wasting no time, he built the ark and saved his family. Noah’s belief in God was in direct contrast to the sin and disbelief of the rest of the world—which refused to obey—and because of his faith he became one of those whom God has accepted.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Abraham trusted God, and when God told him to leave home and go far away to another land that he promised to give him, Abraham obeyed. Away he went, not even knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And even when he reached God’s promised land, he lived in tents like a mere visitor as did Isaac and Jacob, to whom God gave the same promise. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Abraham did this because he was confidently waiting for God to bring him to that strong heavenly city whose designer and builder is God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Sarah, too, had faith, and because of this she was able to become a mother in spite of her old age, for she realized that God, who gave her his promise, would certainly do what he said. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And so a whole nation came from Abraham, who was too old to have even one child—a nation with so many millions of people that, like the stars of the sky and the sand on the ocean shores, there is no way to count them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]These men of faith I have mentioned died without ever receiving all that God had promised them; but they saw it all awaiting them on ahead and were glad, for they agreed that this earth was not their real home but that they were just strangers visiting down here. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And quite obviously when they talked like that, they were looking forward to their real home in heaven.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If they had wanted to, they could have gone back to the good things of this world. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But they didn’t want to. They were living for heaven. And now God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has made a heavenly city for them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]While God was testing him, Abraham still trusted in God and his promises, and so he offered up his son Isaac and was ready to slay him on the altar of sacrifice; [SUP]18 [/SUP]yes, to slay even Isaac, through whom God had promised to give Abraham a whole nation of descendants!
[SUP]19 [/SUP]He believed that if Isaac died God would bring him back to life again; and that is just about what happened, for as far as Abraham was concerned, Isaac was doomed to death, but he came back again alive! [SUP]20 [/SUP]It was by faith that Isaac knew God would give future blessings to his two sons, Jacob and Esau.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s two sons as he stood and prayed, leaning on the top of his cane.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it was by faith that Joseph, as he neared the end of his life, confidently spoke of God bringing the people of Israel out of Egypt; and he was so sure of it that he made them promise to carry his bones with them when they left!
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Moses’ parents had faith too. When they saw that God had given them an unusual child, they trusted that God would save him from the death the king commanded, and they hid him for three months and were not afraid.
[SUP]24-25 [/SUP]It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be treated as the grandson of the king, but chose to share ill-treatment with God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. [SUP]26 [/SUP]He thought that it was better to suffer for the promised Christ than to own all the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking forward to the great reward that God would give him. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And it was because he trusted God that he left the land of Egypt and wasn’t afraid of the king’s anger. Moses kept right on going; it seemed as though he could see God right there with him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And it was because he believed God would save his people that he commanded them to kill a lamb as God had told them to and sprinkle the blood on the doorposts of their homes so that God’s terrible Angel of Death could not touch the oldest child in those homes as he did among the Egyptians.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The people of Israel trusted God and went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians chasing them tried it, they all were drowned.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]It was faith that brought the walls of Jericho tumbling down after the people of Israel had walked around them seven days as God had commanded them. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith—because she believed in God and his power—Rahab the harlot did not die with all the others in her city when they refused to obey God, for she gave a friendly welcome to the spies.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Well, how much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah and David and Samuel and all the other prophets. [SUP]33 [/SUP]These people all trusted God and as a result won battles, overthrew kingdoms, ruled their people well, and received what God had promised them; they were kept from harm in a den of lions [SUP]34 [/SUP]and in a fiery furnace. Some, through their faith, escaped death by the sword. Some were made strong again after they had been weak or sick. Others were given great power in battle; they made whole armies turn and run away. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And some women, through faith, received their loved ones back again from death. But others trusted God and were beaten to death, preferring to die rather than turn from God and be free—trusting that they would rise to a better life afterwards.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Some were laughed at and their backs cut open with whips, and others were chained in dungeons. [SUP]37-38 [/SUP]Some died by stoning and some by being sawed in two; others were promised freedom if they would renounce their faith, then were killed with the sword. Some went about in skins of sheep and goats, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in dens and caves. They were hungry and sick and ill-treated—too good for this world. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And these men of faith, though they trusted God and won his approval, none of them received all that God had promised them; [SUP]40 [/SUP]for God wanted them to wait and share the even better rewards that were prepared for us.
Abrahan believed God and so did Noah, there works were a by-product of their Faith
[h=3]Hebrews 11[/h]Living Bible (TLB)
11 What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Men of God in days of old were famous for their faith.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith—by believing God—we know that the world and the stars—in fact, all things—were made at God’s command; and that they were all made from things that can’t be seen.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]It was by faith that Abel obeyed God and brought an offering that pleased God more than Cain’s offering did. God accepted Abel and proved it by accepting his gift; and though Abel is long dead, we can still learn lessons from him about trusting God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Enoch trusted God too, and that is why God took him away to heaven without dying; suddenly he was gone because God took him. Before this happened God had said[SUP][b][/SUP] how pleased he was with Enoch. [SUP]6 [/SUP]You can never please God without faith, without depending on him. Anyone who wants to come to God must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely look for him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Noah was another who trusted God. When he heard God’s warning about the future, Noah believed him even though there was then no sign of a flood, and wasting no time, he built the ark and saved his family. Noah’s belief in God was in direct contrast to the sin and disbelief of the rest of the world—which refused to obey—and because of his faith he became one of those whom God has accepted.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Abraham trusted God, and when God told him to leave home and go far away to another land that he promised to give him, Abraham obeyed. Away he went, not even knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And even when he reached God’s promised land, he lived in tents like a mere visitor as did Isaac and Jacob, to whom God gave the same promise. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Abraham did this because he was confidently waiting for God to bring him to that strong heavenly city whose designer and builder is God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Sarah, too, had faith, and because of this she was able to become a mother in spite of her old age, for she realized that God, who gave her his promise, would certainly do what he said. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And so a whole nation came from Abraham, who was too old to have even one child—a nation with so many millions of people that, like the stars of the sky and the sand on the ocean shores, there is no way to count them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]These men of faith I have mentioned died without ever receiving all that God had promised them; but they saw it all awaiting them on ahead and were glad, for they agreed that this earth was not their real home but that they were just strangers visiting down here. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And quite obviously when they talked like that, they were looking forward to their real home in heaven.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If they had wanted to, they could have gone back to the good things of this world. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But they didn’t want to. They were living for heaven. And now God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has made a heavenly city for them.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]While God was testing him, Abraham still trusted in God and his promises, and so he offered up his son Isaac and was ready to slay him on the altar of sacrifice; [SUP]18 [/SUP]yes, to slay even Isaac, through whom God had promised to give Abraham a whole nation of descendants!
[SUP]19 [/SUP]He believed that if Isaac died God would bring him back to life again; and that is just about what happened, for as far as Abraham was concerned, Isaac was doomed to death, but he came back again alive! [SUP]20 [/SUP]It was by faith that Isaac knew God would give future blessings to his two sons, Jacob and Esau.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was old and dying, blessed each of Joseph’s two sons as he stood and prayed, leaning on the top of his cane.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it was by faith that Joseph, as he neared the end of his life, confidently spoke of God bringing the people of Israel out of Egypt; and he was so sure of it that he made them promise to carry his bones with them when they left!
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Moses’ parents had faith too. When they saw that God had given them an unusual child, they trusted that God would save him from the death the king commanded, and they hid him for three months and were not afraid.
[SUP]24-25 [/SUP]It was by faith that Moses, when he grew up, refused to be treated as the grandson of the king, but chose to share ill-treatment with God’s people instead of enjoying the fleeting pleasures of sin. [SUP]26 [/SUP]He thought that it was better to suffer for the promised Christ than to own all the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking forward to the great reward that God would give him. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And it was because he trusted God that he left the land of Egypt and wasn’t afraid of the king’s anger. Moses kept right on going; it seemed as though he could see God right there with him. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And it was because he believed God would save his people that he commanded them to kill a lamb as God had told them to and sprinkle the blood on the doorposts of their homes so that God’s terrible Angel of Death could not touch the oldest child in those homes as he did among the Egyptians.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The people of Israel trusted God and went right through the Red Sea as though they were on dry ground. But when the Egyptians chasing them tried it, they all were drowned.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]It was faith that brought the walls of Jericho tumbling down after the people of Israel had walked around them seven days as God had commanded them. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith—because she believed in God and his power—Rahab the harlot did not die with all the others in her city when they refused to obey God, for she gave a friendly welcome to the spies.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Well, how much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah and David and Samuel and all the other prophets. [SUP]33 [/SUP]These people all trusted God and as a result won battles, overthrew kingdoms, ruled their people well, and received what God had promised them; they were kept from harm in a den of lions [SUP]34 [/SUP]and in a fiery furnace. Some, through their faith, escaped death by the sword. Some were made strong again after they had been weak or sick. Others were given great power in battle; they made whole armies turn and run away. [SUP]35 [/SUP]And some women, through faith, received their loved ones back again from death. But others trusted God and were beaten to death, preferring to die rather than turn from God and be free—trusting that they would rise to a better life afterwards.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Some were laughed at and their backs cut open with whips, and others were chained in dungeons. [SUP]37-38 [/SUP]Some died by stoning and some by being sawed in two; others were promised freedom if they would renounce their faith, then were killed with the sword. Some went about in skins of sheep and goats, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in dens and caves. They were hungry and sick and ill-treated—too good for this world. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And these men of faith, though they trusted God and won his approval, none of them received all that God had promised them; [SUP]40 [/SUP]for God wanted them to wait and share the even better rewards that were prepared for us.
1 Corinthians 12:6 There are many ways in which God works in our lives, but it is the same God who does the work in and through all of us who are his.
The context disagrees. Paul clearly is establishing a difference between works of the law, and those through faith. He then uses OT saints of faith to show that they and we are no different. You might also want to check the beatitudes which is the new 10 commandments of the NT. They are much the same as OT but much stricter in that it is now of the letter as well.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Ok, so you rationalized your way out on that one. Seems typical.
However, it is still water that God uses to enter us into Christ.
Every sacrament/mystery has a physical element to it. God does not operate with man in only some spiritual/non physical way.
That is why your original statement was tending towards Gnosticism. Unfortunately it was Zwingli who denied the physical aspects of sacraments. It is this subtle form of Gnosticism that has invaded a not of Protestant theology.
`
Baptism does not save a person either. It is necessary to enter into Christ, but just because we believe,(initial belief) repent and are baptized, one is not necessarily saved, that is, inherits the promise unless one endures, remains faithful.
There is no such thing as a static-one-time- faith salvation. It is dynamic, it is continuing, active and must bear fruit. If not, one cannot be saved.
However, it is still water that God uses to enter us into Christ.
Every sacrament/mystery has a physical element to it. God does not operate with man in only some spiritual/non physical way.
That is why your original statement was tending towards Gnosticism. Unfortunately it was Zwingli who denied the physical aspects of sacraments. It is this subtle form of Gnosticism that has invaded a not of Protestant theology.
`
Baptism does not save a person either. It is necessary to enter into Christ, but just because we believe,(initial belief) repent and are baptized, one is not necessarily saved, that is, inherits the promise unless one endures, remains faithful.
There is no such thing as a static-one-time- faith salvation. It is dynamic, it is continuing, active and must bear fruit. If not, one cannot be saved.