SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[dcontroversal]

No I think you got this alittle mixed up.

No man can unter unless he is first cleansed. How are we cleansed. By the work of God. (titus 3: 5)

it is not our works of rightiousness, But his mercy which saves us by the washing and new birth of the Holy Spirit.

which is what LT was trying to show you

I have taken John 3 and the reference to water as found below...

If he was referencing John 3 the water is indicative of being born of a woman I.E> Her water bursts...

In order to enter the kingdom of God you must...

1. Be born into this world and or conceived
2. Be born of the spirit<--born again in Christ by faith thru grace because of mercy I.E. Saved, redeemed, justified and all of the other words that biblically apply unto the saved children of God

Obviously children that have not reached whatever age (moment of realization) of accountability are safe under the blood as well as children who die before an ability to make a decision of faith to wit David's 1st born son from Bathsheba..I will go to him (David stated) concerning his death....

When the Exodus came it was blood (Passover) before water Red SEA
When Jesus was pierced it was blood before water
Someone saved it is blood before water

The putting the water before spirit in John 3 tells me it is something other than baptism and context as well as the fact Nicodemus was viewing it from a physical birth as well seems to indicate context....

 

[Stephen63]

Galatians 5:13-15 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Proverbs 30:12-14 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. [SUP]13 [/SUP]There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. [SUP]14 [/SUP]There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Are the unlearned needy? Are the foolish spiritually poor?

We see biting & devouring, and no love. We see pride & arrogance. We see self righteousness. We see now 41 pages of evidence that clearly shows nothing has been gained for God. We see no compassion for the babes, nor the sinners.

Competition......everybody wants to win....... but at what cost?

Beware of the leaven of the pharisees.

2 Peter 3:17 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[dcontroversal]

like the religious pharisees (who his church resembles.) who did not think they needed saved, because they had history, Tradition, words of men, And the writings of their fathers,

If you do not think you need saved, no one can ever convince you you still need to be saved.

I agree...the whole approach is of exact similitude and right down the line with the Pharisees approach to the word of God...Jesus condemned it, Paul condemned it, the Bible condemns it and to ADD to JESUS for salvation and or to KEEP salvation is contrary to what Jesus taught as required for ETERNAL life as in a simple childlike faith....period!

ETERNAL MEANS ETERNAL-->NOT---->ETERNAL THAT CAN BE LOST IS NOT ETERNAL, BUT RATHER TEMPORARY!

 

[And]

This ia a false prophet thread





Thoughts on faith and works'

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel ...offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch ... pleased God.




Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, ...obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.



Heb 11:9 By faith ihe sojourned




Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:


Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, ... blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.


Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, ... gave commandment concerning his bones.


Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents,


Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused ... Choosing rather ...




Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt,


Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land:
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, ...


Faith is an actio word

Faith without works is DEAD

We dont need works to be saved?
that is a bald faced lie.

Faith always works by love and obedience to all God says

He says do not steal
have fatih!
he says in the WHOLE BIBLE keep the sevemnth day Sabbath.
Obey
He says love God with all your heart and soul and mind

that means Bible time not television time.

Works will not save you
lack of works will not save you either

commandment keeping will not save you
commandment breaking will not save you wither.

Jesus saves!
His blood saves

and the ones his blood saves are the obedient ones
his blood does NOT SAVE THE DISOBEDIENT

the whole Bible tells you that from genesis to revelation'

Check it out!

 

[dcontroversal]

Galatians 5:13-15 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
.

Go back and read your first 4-6 posts that were directed at me.....This is hilarious coming from you......! I will say that you most definitely take the cake.....for real!

 

[dcontroversal]

Glad to see that you named your thread before you posted on this thread of truth as works do not save us, works do not keep us saved so keep on twisting scriptures that have nothing to do with salvation to your own eternal judgment....Jesus plus works for salvation is a heretical teaching double condemned by the word of God to hell...again I am glad you chose a proper name for your post as it fits your theology....

This is a false prophet thread (as found below)<---added by Dcontroversal

Thoughts on faith and works'

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel ...offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch ... pleased God.




Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, ...obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.



Heb 11:9 By faith ihe sojourned




Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:


Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, ... blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.


Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, ... gave commandment concerning his bones.


Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents,


Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused ... Choosing rather ...




Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt,


Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land:
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, ...


Faith is an actio word

Faith without works is DEAD

We dont need works to be saved?
that is a bald faced lie.

Faith always works by love and obedience to all God says

He says do not steal
have fatih!
he says in the WHOLE BIBLE keep the sevemnth day Sabbath.
Obey
He says love God with all your heart and soul and mind

that means Bible time not television time.

Works will not save you
lack of works will not save you either

commandment keeping will not save you
commandment breaking will not save you wither.

Jesus saves!
His blood saves

and the ones his blood saves are the obedient ones
his blood does NOT SAVE THE DISOBEDIENT

the whole Bible tells you that from genesis to revelation'

Check it out!

 

[dcontroversal]

Again lets see what Jesus says, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. "

Why does Jesus say this, it is to make a point that you are to be forgiven a pretty much unreachable amount of times. Then He goes this is a liken to the kingdom of heaven to show that if you fall away but then come back in repentance you will be forgiven no matter how many times you fall cause you will never reach that point of not forgiven. Unless you are not repentant for your sin, then He will spit you out.

Two problems with your theology....

1. There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..it is impossible to fall away to the extent that you loose your salvation and then have to be re-saved
2. The context of 70 times 7 is found within the ranks of forgiving those who sin against US and is not about being saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost.......

 

[dcontroversal]

I have to go for now, but I will leave you with this. I have known a few people that have fallen away. One was a guy I ran into who was born and raised in a Baptist family. He was baptized in Jesus name, confessed Jesus Lord and Savior, and repented of his sins. He lived all the way tell he was 25 a good life striving to live how Jesus says for us. At 25 however he lost his wife in a horrible accident, they had been married for 3 years. He ended up through hatred refusing that God existed, and joined a group where he and others spent the next 11 years debating the bible trying to prove it false. If Jesus was mentioned he would argue how he was just a mere man and a false prophet.

I met him when he was 36 and I over hear him conversing with another about the falsehood of the bible. I started talking to him and after a month of debates, showing him the scriptures again, and showing Gods love I opened his eyes again. He broke down and started crying saying, "How could I have been so wrong. " " How could I have turned my back on God. "
I told him don't worry God is calling you back into His love and grace. All you need to do is repent, and confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. He did this and even went further by asking me if I would baptize him again. At first I said I am not sure that would be proper, but I went back and prayed and I was given my answer that I could baptize him. So I went to him the next day and told him I would. He thanked me, but I told him no, thank God.

Point is if the Lord did not use me to speak to him he would probably still be lost today. A clear story of one who was once saved, turned their back on God, but then was brought back into that salvation.


If you say this can not happen, then it is the same as condemning those who this has happened to because to you they can't be saved again, or were never saved in the first place. If you talk to him or another from the same position they will clearly argue or debate your reasoning.

One thing I have noticed is the fact that almost every time with few exceptions when somebody who teaches works to keep or gain salvation talks about someone who (fell away) it is without exception almost always a BAPTIST.....

Funny how the ones who teach works to gain or keep salvation never seem to fall away and get LOST....what a farce!

 

[dcontroversal]

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You can highlight scriptures all year long in red (especially the ones which have nothing at all to do with being saved) and it will not change the fact that works to keep or get salvation is heresy, contrary to the truth, double cursed, condemned to hell and come from the mouths of false teachers who will enjoy the mists of darkness for ever!

 

[danalee]

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I love all of you for your hand in illumination of the scriptures. I will admit I am not quite understanding this works versus grace thread and the other ones either. Can someone please explain it to me in simple terms?

What is meant by the last verse, 'do thy first works'? I am thinking the works talked about in scripture are meaning different things. Works here could mean what we do to repent, that being part of a continual cleansing we do to maintain our relationship with God in an honest and humble way.

I am thinking that there is merit in the teaching that we are saved by the grace of God in his Christ, but that we are also told to repent and obey God's commandments...now is the argument that if we don't do the work of repentance we are in danger of losing our salvation? And some of you are saying we never lose our salvation once we accept the gift of the cross?

 

[dcontroversal]

I love all of you for your hand in illumination of the scriptures. I will admit I am not quite understanding this works versus grace thread and the other ones either. Can someone please explain it to me in simple terms?

What is meant by the last verse, 'do thy first works'? I am thinking the works talked about in scripture are meaning different things. Works here could mean what we do to repent, that being part of a continual cleansing we do to maintain our relationship with God in an honest and humble way.

I am thinking that there is merit in the teaching that we are saved by the grace of God in his Christ, but that we are also told to repent and obey God's commandments...now is the argument that if we don't do the work of repentance we are in danger of losing our salvation? And some of you are saying we never lose our salvation once we accept the gift of the cross?

The first works was the Love of God......they like many churches were doing everything under the sun for Jesus but had forgotten about the simple truth concerning the Love of God....A study of the church and the Pastors they had Timothy and John and it becomes evident how fast a church can lose it's way to the extent it gets warned by God concerning their authority

The jest of this post....

1. Is salvation based upon grace through faith and because of the mercy of God gained by faith
or
2. Are we saved and kept saved by our works plus Jesus

My OP states what I believe clearly..our salvation is based upon faith void of our human works or efforts to gain it or keep it...NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US

 

[danalee]

Two problems with your theology....

1. There remaineth no more sacrifice for sins..it is impossible to fall away to the extent that you loose your salvation and then have to be re-saved
2. The context of 70 times 7 is found within the ranks of forgiving those who sin against US and is not about being saved, lost, saved, lost, saved, lost.......

So is there a thought that we can be certain one is saved? I hope I am saved. Yet in that disbelief I can turn more hopeful at times where I don't think there is anything I can do to lose my salvation except deny Jesus on the cross. Although I find that if I don't revere the words of repentance I end up feeling awful. I repent because I am deeply moved by God's overwhelming love for me, I do this for love of my father in heaven. I do this to show reverence and obedience because that is what is right - not for my salvation.

I guess it might seem a bit wrong to repent in the hopes it would affect an outcome to benefit me. That would make God's love and his work through christ seem insignificant in power. And that power to save therefore comes from our hands (of work). I thought no one but God through the power of Jesus Christ can save?

 

[LT]

Can someone please explain it to me in simple terms?

-Nearly everyone here agree as one that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works; but maintaining that works ans the pursuit of holiness are still in our purpose as Christians, and are a sign and expression of our faith.

-A few are on the fence about the "not of works" part because they understand how important works are in a Christians life, and feel that no one would do the works if their salvation wasn't riding on it.

- An certain group is saying that works (specifically purity to the early church format) is needed to maintain salvation.
They say this because they believe that their small group (which believes that instruments are sinful in churches) are the only saved people.

 

[danalee]

The first works was the Love of God......they like many churches were doing everything under the sun for Jesus but had forgotten about the simple truth concerning the Love of God....A study of the church and the Pastors they had Timothy and John and it becomes evident how fast a church can lose it's way to the extent it gets warned by God concerning their authority

The jest of this post....

1. Is salvation based upon grace through faith and because of the mercy of God gained by faith
or
2. Are we saved and kept saved by our works plus Jesus

My OP states what I believe clearly..our salvation is based upon faith void of our human works or efforts to gain it or keep it...NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. In that case, I'm with you on this one. I don't think that man has any divine power, our works are dead. But really, those who think otherwise can do so because they are still saved if they believe so we can all be happy.

 

[danalee]

-Nearly everyone here agree as one that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works; but maintaining that works ans the pursuit of holiness are still in our purpose as Christians, and are a sign and expression of our faith.

-A few are on the fence about the "not of works" part because they understand how important works are in a Christians life, and feel that no one would do the works if their salvation wasn't riding on it.

- An certain group is saying that works (specifically purity to the early church format) is needed to maintain salvation.
They say this because they believe that their small group (which believes that instruments are sinful in churches) are the only saved people.

I hope that LT keeps up a presence here because I like to know what's really going on. Thank ya, you're a smart kid.

 

[dcontroversal]

So is there a thought that we can be certain one is saved? I hope I am saved. Yet in that disbelief I can turn more hopeful at times where I don't think there is anything I can do to lose my salvation except deny Jesus on the cross. Although I find that if I don't revere the words of repentance I end up feeling awful. I repent because I am deeply moved by God's overwhelming love for me, I do this for love of my father in heaven. I do this to show reverence and obedience because that is what is right - not for my salvation.

I guess it might seem a bit wrong to repent in the hopes it would affect an outcome to benefit me. That would make God's love and his work through christ seem insignificant in power. And that power to save therefore comes from our hands (of work). I thought no one but God through the power of Jesus Christ can save?

John said clearly in his writings...Little Children I have written these things unto you that you may KNOW that you have eternal life....The answer is yes we can know for sure that we are saved....

John 3:16 uses an Aorist Tense Verb which means this...

IS HAVING ETERNAL LIFE

I was saved when I trusted Christ in the past
I am saved right now as I type
I am continuing to be saved into the future

A present CONTINUING RESULT from a PAST COMPLETED ACTION...

WE are saved from faith to faith it is WRITTEN

WHEN we acknowledge the completed works of Christ and acknowledge him in faith we are saved and rendered legally innocent because the Heavenly Father now views us through the blood of his dear Son and we are found JUSTIFIED before the throne of Grace...

Ecclesiastes 3:14 Everything God does is eternal..nothing can be added or subtracted from it and he does it this way so that we should FEAR HIM...

To add works to Jesus to gain or keep salvation is to say that what Jesus did is not good enough!

Having said that....NO ONE IS SAYING that a born again child of God should not serve God and do the works as the works point to a biblical conversion that has taken place inwardly..

We are justified before God by faith
MEN can see our invisible claim of faith BY OUR WORKS
WORKS DO NOT SAVE US OR KEEP US SAVED!

 

[Alligator]

You should read your own posts...they testify to unbelief and what a lost man would say or reason. Actually sounds like what someone would write who knows the truth about eternal salvation...in case you didn't understand I will re-post it for you to read again....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

COP OUT....well maybe you like teaching things out of context that will take you straight to hell as well as anyone who believes your heretical doctrine of works/water for salvation...the only reason you mouthed is because in context the verses you quoted refute your heresy and make you look like a fool!

Again I will say....maybe context means nothing to you, but in context the water verses you apply to biblical salvation makes it void as eternal, biblical salvation has nothing to do with..

1. Works
2. Baptism<--work of righteousness and first act of obedience AFTER biblical salvation
3. Church membership or affiliation
4. Back flipping down the isle while speaking some jibberesh
5. Being slain in the spirit

etc.

No maybe you trust into the above and I would suggest the bible in context.....

its amazing that after all those hours you bragged about studying the Bible and you still don't get it. The only thing you have is a smart mouth, like one or two others on here.

over and out.

 

[dcontroversal]

its amazing that after all those hours you bragged about studying the Bible and you still don't get it. The only thing you have is a smart mouth, like one or two others on here.

over and out.

Whatever man....I call like I see it!....Not my fault you refuse to listen and want to follow a road that leads as south as you can get.....God is in the North parts and to make his courts you need to trust into Jesus and the work that he already completed for YOU and if you keep putting your works to Christ as your means of salvation you will never make it as it is a FALSE GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND and CONTRARY to what Jesus, Paul, John etc. taught.

Trust Jesus for total salvation before it is eternally too late!

 

[dcontroversal]

its amazing that after all those hours you bragged about studying the Bible and you still don't get it. The only thing you have is a smart mouth, like one or two others on here.

over and out.

I bet if I agreed with you that you would not have accused me falsely as I didn't brag, but rather stated facts when I was told that I needed to study Matthew....And your view/opinion etc. concerning me does not even make the list....

 

[Alligator]

Whatever man....I call like I see it!....Not my fault you refuse to listen and want to follow a road that leads as south as you can get.....God is in the North parts and to make his courts you need to trust into Jesus and the work that he already completed for YOU and if you keep putting your works to Christ as your means of salvation you will never make it as it is a FALSE GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND and CONTRARY to what Jesus, Paul, John etc. taught.

Trust Jesus for total salvation before it is eternally too late!

While I don't agree with any of that, I would at least like to give you credit for making a decent post.