SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[SarahM777]

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.Jas. 2:24

Of course a dead faith won't save you. So you agree that a dead faith (one void of any works) cannot save you, therefore works are also required to make it an active faith, is that right?

You do understand there is a DISTINCTION that MUST be made we are NOT DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by our works. We are ONLY declared RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH. The passage that Paul quotes from in Genesis shows that NO WORKS AT ALL were involved in his being DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.

Genesis 15

15 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

So is James getting at by saying we are JUSTIFIED NOT BY FAITH ALONE?

The Free Dictionary

jus·ti·fy(jŭs′tə-fī′)v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v.tr.1. To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.
2. To declare free of blame; absolve.
3. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.
4. Lawa. To demonstrate sufficient legal reason for (an action taken).
b. To prove to be qualified as a bondsman.

5. Printing To adjust the spacing within (lines in a document, for example), so that the lines end evenly at a straight margin.

v.intr. Printing

In order to get to what James is ACTUALLY SAYING about faith you MUST start with verse 14

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

What he does say is can a FAITH THAT HAS NO DEEDS SAVE? His premise still starts with FAITH. James is DEFINING that type of faith. He is NOT SAYING WORKS SAVE. James point is that one who HAS A SAVING FAITH WILL PRODUCE FRUITS. James is still very clear that at the root of it is FAITH.

See no matter how much one wants to slice it dice it and put it in the blender the Bible is very clear that WITHOUT FAITH
you CAN NOT please God. Even your works CAN NOT please God without FAITH.

Jesus and the apostles take it even one step further,you can HAVE GOOD WORKS but you are doing them with the wrong motive and they too MEAN NOTHING. Jesus is very clear on that when IF you LOVE ME you will keep and obey my commands. Paul says this

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

John goes on and says this

1 John

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Soninto the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends,since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God;but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command:Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

 

[SarahM777]

And to take it a bit further what is at the very heart of it all is AGAPE LOVE. How many of us ACTUALLY ask the Lord to give us the SAME kind of heart that He has? How many of us ask Him to teach us to show the SAME kind of love He has shown us? Do we get it through our heads that that is the very reason that the world at the time of the disciples was turned on its head BECAUSE they were living,breathing and showing agape love?

 

[Elin]

You are right, Baptism does not save, but is necessary for salvation, Just like
faith does not save either, but is necessary for salvation.
Justification does not save either, but is necessary for salvation.

Paul emphatically states otherwise. . .this is your own notion.

Take it up with him.

Our differences are irresolvable because you accept an authority outside Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state and is contradictory to it, as in the above.

Your self-evident error means you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

God initiated it with Grace, it was his part of the covenant, faith is mans part, God makes nobody have faith, it is not I that is out of their mind or I would believe in "faith only"

There is no bilateral covenant in the NT (Jer 31:31-34).

 

[Jabberjaw]

There is no bilateral covenant in the NT (Jer 31:31-34).

There is no such thing as a one sided covenant, a covenant is a contract between two sides, in this case God and man.

Hebrews 8:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Paul emphatically states otherwise. . .this is your own notion.

Take it up with him.

Our differences are irresolvable because you accept an authority outside Scripture which can authorize what Scripture does not state and is contradictory to it, as in the above.

Your self-evident error means you are wasting your time and ours here.

Paul never said "faith only" anywhere, nor did anyone else

 

[Jabberjaw]

And to take it a bit further what is at the very heart of it all is AGAPE LOVE. How many of us ACTUALLY ask the Lord to give us the SAME kind of heart that He has? How many of us ask Him to teach us to show the SAME kind of love He has shown us? Do we get it through our heads that that is the very reason that the world at the time of the disciples was turned on its head BECAUSE they were living,breathing and showing agape love?

He said if you "agapao" Me you will keep My commandments :

 John 14:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]"If you love Me, keep My commandments.

 

[Elin]

Lets take the most famous verse in all the Bible. John 3:15-16. In vs 15 uses the word "should" as does vs 16. That is a word that implies conditions to be met before it is possible to award the eternal life.
It is a future determination. It does not say one has eternal life.

FAIL. . .

"Shall/should" expresses determination; i.e., to fix conclusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain.

According to your view
this text should read as follows:
whoever believes in Him has eternal life, because God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but
definitely has eternal life."

According to its grammatical construction, that is exactly what it means,
in agreement with Ro 3:27; Eph 2:8-9; etc.

Your grasp of Scripture, as well as the English language, is much too inadequate
for you to represent them correctly.

Add to that your acceptance of an authority outside Scripture
which can authorize what the Scriptures do not state,
and we have no bases for examining the Scriptures with you.

You are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[SarahM777]

He said if you "agapao" Me you will keep My commandments :

 John 14:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]"If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Agape and agapao are describing the same thing. Agape is the noun form and agapao is the verb form.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You do understand there is a DISTINCTION that MUST be made we are NOT DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by our works. We are ONLY declared RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH. The passage that Paul quotes from in Genesis shows that NO WORKS AT ALL were involved in his being DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.

You do see faith only does not justify:

James 2:24 (KJV) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Agape and agapao are describing the same thing. Agape is the noun form and agapao is the verb form.

And that changes "if you love Me you will keep my commandments" how?

 John 14:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]"If you love Me, keep My commandments.

 

[SarahM777]

[/COLOR]You do see faith only does not justify:

James 2:24 (KJV) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Go back and PUT IT INTO CONTEXT.

James 2

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

James DOES NOT says that your works DECLARE YOU RIGHTEOUS. He also still says it is FAITH THAT SAVES US. All he is defining is the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN a living,breathing active faith and a DEAD FAITH.

Justified again has these meanings

Merriam Webster

[h=2]jus·ti·fy[/h] verb \ˈjəs-tə-ˌfī\: to provide or be a good reason for (something) : to prove or show (something) to be just, right, or reasonable


James is clearly pointing out that WORKS are an evidence of a SAVING FAITH. What he is not saying is that works in and of themselves can save you. What he is plainly saying is that works come OUT OF A SAVING FAITH but the basis of those works is still FAITH. Because WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Go back and PUT IT INTO CONTEXT.

James 2

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

My point exactly, deeds are works... so faith without works = unsaved.

 

[Stephen63]

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

​

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

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2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
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Ezekiel 18:24-26 ESV
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.

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Hebrews 10:26-28 ESV
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

​

1 John 2:3-4 ESV
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Romans 2:6-8 ESV ​

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
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Romans 11:22 ESV
Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
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Hebrews 6:4-6 [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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Revelation 2:4-7 ESV
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
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Revelation 3:1-6 ESV
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
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2 Peter 1:9-10 ESV
For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
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Luke 6:46 ESV
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?
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Galatians 5:4 ESV
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
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Ephesians 2:10 ESV
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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Revelation 22:19 ESV
And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
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Colossians 1:23 ESV
If indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

How many of these will you cry against? How can you not see? How can you refuse these? I'll tell you how: with excuses & accusations. All you will do is post & tell how wrong I am & try against all odds to make me look wrong. But you won't have a leg to stand on. Who (besides EG) will believe you now?
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Well, DC, guess you chose to ignore it all...... that's what they do when the can't do nothin' else.

 

[Elin]

here is one that has it promised in
whoever believes (present tense, active, continuing) but then the second clause puts the negation into the promise.
Whoever does not obey shall NOT see life. It matters not that one believes for a while, but if that faith/belief is not conditioned by obeying, one cannot inherit the promise.

More knowledge of the Greek would show you your error.

The word for "believe" and the word for "obey" are the same (apeitheo),
because belief obeys.

The text reads: "Whoever believes. . .whoever does not believe."

True belief causes obedience, but they are separate entities.

Paul emphatically states that the former saves, and the latter does not save.

Here is another..
John 1:12-13 - But to all who did receive Him [Christ], who believed in His name,
He gave the right to become children of God,

The grammatical construction of the text states that to "receive" (accept, hold) him

is to "believe" in him, they are the same, just as to "come" is to "believe"
(Jn 6:35; 7:37-38).

Your understanding of English grammar is too inadequate to grasp
the grammatical construction of the texts.

Here is one that states that upon belief and receiving Christ(baptism) one is not even a child of God.
It gives one a right or authority to become a child of God.

Note the right is based on believing/receiving (which are grammatically the same), not on obedience.

Living in obedience makes one a child of God, not the believing.

Obedience is nowhere found in the text, you have added it of your own authority.

There are many more

So far, there are none.

You are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

A debate can only go this many pages when people are not listening to each other.

Actually, it is unbelief that makes a debate go on.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@SarahM777

Good works are necessary because they help others determine if one's faith is true faith.

It is not up to us to determine if anyone is saved, if yuo looked at a pharisee and all their good works. One could assume they are saved. But they are not.

James is telling each individual to test their own faith. not telling us to test someone elses faith. that is taking james out of context

"You will know them by their fruits."

If we have faith, than that faith will translate into physical actions, then people will know that we're the real deal.

"They will know we are Christians by our love."



Faith ---> A state of mind
good works ---> A result of that state of mind


Good works is faith in action. You can't have true 100% faith in the Almighty without that faith overwhelming you, causing you to become zealous for the Lord; your zeal will dictate your actions.. Your actions will cause you to produce fruit, your faith helps your actions to produce good fruit, so that others will know that you have true faith.

Jesus said faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. So how much faith does one need to do any work?

There is nothing in Canon law that states we are saved by works alone. From my own personal experience, I have never attended a sermon in which a Catholic priest taught and promoted a 'saved by works' doctrine.

There is nothing in the cannon which says we are saved by works period. No one has to say we are saved by works to believe or promote it. The pharisees did not go around preaching works saved, Yet we all know that is what they believed

This bible verse does not hinder a 'faith + works = salvation'; it does not at all discourage us from performing good deeds, it just reminds us that faith is the main component of how we're saved.

Yes it does. NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST. No works. Zero zip nada. If yuo can take credit (boast) it is by your actions or works.

 

[Elin]

Such pacity of understanding. If Adam was perfect, he would have already attained immortality and woiuld have been unable to sin.

Nope. . .perfection does not mean immutability.

Adam was created perfect, but mutable, as were the angels in heaven.

The obedience of both angels and man were tried.

After the trial, all were made immutable in the outcome of their trial,
the obedient angels were made immutable in perfection,
and the rebels, including Adam, were made immutable in sin.

Therein, Adam lost his physical life (immortality) and his eternal life (Holy Spirit life),
resulting in his physical death (mortality) as a sign of his spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life).

This is what a comparison of the right understanding of the NT with the OT shows
about obedience and rebellion in angels and man.

Jesus came to raise again to eternal life in the new birth all those who believe in him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Our faith causes us to perform good works that are beneficial to the kingdom of God. Good works that are beneficial to the kingdom of God generate and strengthen the faith of other Christians, therefore helping them on the path to salvation. From that perspective, good works certainly can help us attain salvation, although faith is of course the underlying reason why we're saved.

Our faith does not cause, it allows. It is the empowering force which enables us to do it

It wouldn't be wise to completely discredit the value of good works in our daily spiritual lives.

no one is devaluating any work. However some are valuing work far above what it shoudl be valued, by giving it salvic reward.

@Dcontroversal --- post #1070

Baptism certainly can help save souls. Once you're baptized, you receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Once one is baptized, the purification of his/her soul starts and continues until he/she is dead.

I have been washed completely. There is no partial washing, it is completely done by the HS (titus 3: 5)

If your still trying to wash yourself. your not even partially clean, your still a filthy sinner still doomed to destruction

 

[Elin]

There is no such thing as a one sided covenant, a covenant is a contract between two sides, in this case God and man.

You are quite Biblically uninformed.

What was man's side of the land covenant?

Hebrews 8:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Mediator does not imply bilateral covenant.

It implies administration.

Where do you find anything bilateral in the promise of the new covenant in Jer 31:31-34?

You also do not know or understand the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

You are wasting your time and ours here.