SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

Cassian · Apr 22, 2014

How come it is not for you? You do realize that the Church from the Apostles on until 500 AD was exclusively Greek, Everything was written in Greek, taught in Greek, yet, the meaning you give to dikiao, was NEVER used in those 500 years. Then when Rome fell in the west, Latin was reintroduced in the west, but in the east, Greek remained the exclusive language for another 400 years until the 9th century when the Slavic language was used also.

It was not until Anselm developed his Satisfaction theory in the 11th century, a western bishop, and used the Midieval, civil meaning, the legal meaning was used. Unfortunately the RCC adopted it and when the Reformers split from the RCC all the reformers also adopted this doctrine for the atonement. As the saying goes, it went downhill, south ever since.
So, unfortunately, you have been misled by a man and a false doctrine. I am not sure where the idea that salvation at the time of believing was finite came because the RCC does not hold this view either. The only theology that it fits is Calvin's system based on predestination. Obviously, if God has already decreed who is saved from before the foundations of the earth, then one is not even lost before faith. Faith seems to be a trigger that predestination kicks in, but even that is just theater, since if one is actually saved before faith, what would faith actually do.
But once again, the whole theological system was developed by a man's opinion/interpretation. Hardly the Gospel of Christ from the beginning.

And · Apr 22, 2014

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light word, commandments, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And · Apr 22, 2014

Jesus forgives by his blood
and you are clean

now
stay clean
You get saved from sin and cleansed as you walk obediently

sin by sin
give them up
this is the ladder of sanctification

I know this is a new concept but if you actually read your bible through you will find these hidden truths that are essential for salvation.

And · Apr 22, 2014

its not about GETTING clean
Jesus makes us clean immediately.
his blood cleanses from all sin

it is about staying clean

never talkecd about
that is called sanctifictaion
staying and remaining clean
staying in the bible
staying and following Jesus

Jesus doesnt walk into bars
follow Jesus
Jesus doesnt walk into theaters
follow Jesus
Jesus doesnt spen mney on lavish cars
follow Jesus
sanctification
this is where the devil has trapped all the churches now
they know niothing about staying sanctified for he invented the lie once save always saved and then they dont believe in sanctification
so they will be lost

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that continue law breaking.

posthuman · Apr 22, 2014

have we all read Romans chapter 7 in this thread?

don't we know that it is not the regenerated man, sanctified in Christ, that does evil, but sin that dwells within him, as we yet live in the flesh, with the blessed hope of Christ's return, to be fully embraced and made whole; making the full purchase of that which we have received in part?

we've read John, and understand and confess that we all have sin?

we've read Hebrews, and understand that only Christ can atone for us and only in Christ are we sanctified, and not of our own?

we've read James and we understand that the righteousness we've been freely given is manifested in doing the will of God?

so why is this 67 pages long?

newbirth · Apr 22, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

Can you tell me what Paul means by this
[h=3]Romans 12[/h]King James Version (KJV)

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[h=3]Ephesians 4[/h]King James Version (KJV)

4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,(HOW?)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

[SUP]5 [/SUP]One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[SUP]9 [/SUP](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;

[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Neither give place to the devil.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

If my salvation is guaranteed with or without following this letter, well .....

newbirth · Apr 22, 2014

well I guess some may feel there is no need to bring the flesh under the control of the spirit, but the body is the temple of the holy spirit and God says we have the power to bring the flesh under subjection of the spirit. So I am just encouraging house cleaning...

1Cor 6
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

newbirth · Apr 22, 2014

posthuman said:

well I guess some may feel there is no need to bring the flesh under the control of the spirit, but the body is the temple of the holy spirit and God says we have the power to bring the flesh under subjection of the spirit. So I am just encouraging house cleaning...

1Cor 6
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Elin · Apr 22, 2014

Cassian said:

Dikaioo (verb) - to justify; to deem to be right, to show to be right,

to show to be right or righteous; passive voice - to be justified (Mt 11:19; Lk 7:35; Ro 3:4; 1Tim 3:16)

to declare to be righteous, to pronounce righteous;
--by man, concerning God (Lk 7:29; Ro 3:4),
--by man concerning himself (Lk 10:29, 16:15),
--by God concerning man, on certain conditions laid down by God (Ro 2:13)
--a) by law-keeping (no such case has occurred in human experience--Ro 3:9-20; Gal 2:16,
---- 3:10, 11, 5:4)
--b) by God himself, the Justifier (Ro 3:26, 8:33), through Christ, as a propitiation
-------- by his blood (Ro 3:25) of those that have faith in Jesus (Ro 5:1);
---- as Judge, God's legal and formal acquittal of guilt, saving from his wrath (Ro 5:9) on guilt
-------- at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:1)
---- being justified upon one's exercise of faith (Ro 5:1)
---- resulting in no condemnation (Ro 8:1, 34) at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:33)

Diakaiosis (noun) - justification; act of pronouncing righteous, just by acquittal of guilt (Ro 4:25, 5:18);

its precise meaning is determined by the meaning of the verb dikaioo, to justify, above.

Dikaioma (noun) - justification; concrete expression of righteousness, declaration that a person or thing is righteous,
does not signify character, only position,
the expression and effect of diakaosis (noun)

Signifies:
1) an ordinance; what God has declared to be right; his decree of judgment (Lk 1:6; Ro 1:32, 2:26; 8:4;
Heb 9:1, 10),
2) a sentence of acquittal, by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions
a) of his grace in Christ, through Christ's expiatory sacrifice,
b) the acceptance of Christ by faith (Ro 5:16),
c) Christ's one righteous act (as "act" in Rev 15:4, 19:8) of propitiation (Ro 5:18)

The "many meanings" of dikaio, and the contexts determining which meaning, are explained above.

In the Greek, "justification" is
a declaration of guiltlessness, positional right ("rightwise") standing before God (Ro 4:5)
by faith (Ro 3:24)
because of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on guilt of sin at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:1, 33, 34).

Cassian · Apr 22, 2014

Elin said:

I am glad we agree with the word, dikiao. It never has the legal meaning in scripture.
Your last two lines, in Greek the word, justification means guiltlessness. But the Greek word used is dikaio, not justification, Justification is one of the English meanings because it was added to the Latin. Stay with the Greek and the theological meaning you will have it correct.
Your theology is askew also because I'm sure you would not agree that God has declared all men NOt GUILTY in Rom 5:9. also in Rom 3:24.
All things were reconciled by His Blood, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19 also the World was reconciled to God by His death and resurrection. Rom 5:18 also, the justification was life, physical life, not a declaration of NOT GUILTY.

Hoffco · Apr 22, 2014

God saves us, beginning with sanctification and ending in full sanctification, Glorification. Justification is like the gravy on top of the meal and potatoes, Love Hoffco

Elin · Apr 22, 2014

Cassian said:

That is precisely what the scholars of NT Greek say it does mean.

Dikaioo (to justify), dikaiosis and dikaioma (justification) are all forms of the same word dikaio,
whose precise meaning is that of dikaioo.

Your examination skills cannot gather at least that much from the Greek, making it necessary
to explain it to you?

The statement is absolutely correct as it stands.

Latin has nothing to do with Greek definitions.

Agreed. . .and that is what I have done in my post above.

I agree with the Greek of Ro 5:9:

"Then more having been justified now by the blood of him we shall be saved through him from the wrath."

I agree with the Greek of Ro 3:22-24:

"a righteousness and of God via faith of Jesus Christ to all and upon all those believing. . .
(parenthetical). . .being justified freely by the of him grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus."

I'm thinking it is your Greek that is askew.

My understanding of the Scriptures does not set them against themselves,
so I will leave it to you to deal with your doing so.

Let me be sure I have this straight.
The Greek reads

"So then, as through one offense (Adam) to all men to condemnation,
so also through one righteous act (Christ) to all men to justification of life."

and you think Christ's act of righteousness on the cross brought physical life?

The level of your understanding here is staggering.

Elin · Apr 22, 2014

P.S.:

Dikaioo (verb) - to justify; to deem to be right;
to show to be right or righteous, passive voice - to be justified (Mt 11:19; Lk 7:35; Ro 3:4; 1Tim 3:16);
to declare to be righteous, to pronounce righteous;
--by man, concerning God (Lk 7:29; Ro 3:4),
--by man concerning himself (Lk 10:29, 16:15),
--by God concerning man, on certain conditions laid down by God (Ro 2:13)
--a) by law-keeping (no such case has occurred in human experience--Ro 3:9-20; Gal 2:16,
---- 3:10, 11, 5:4)
--b) by God himself,
---- the Justifier (Ro 3:26, 8:33), through Christ, as a propitiation
-------- by his blood (Ro 3:25) of those that have faith in Jesus (Ro 5:1);
---- the Judge, his legal and formal acquittal of guilt, saving from his wrath (Ro 5:9) on guilt
-------- at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:1)
--c) through faith, one being justified (Ro 5:1)

resulting in no condemnation (Ro 8:1, 34) at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:33)

Dikaiosis (noun) - justification; act of pronouncing righteous, just by acquittal of guilt (Ro 4:25, 5:18);

its precise meaning is of the verb dikaioo, to justify, above.

Dikaioma (noun) - justification; concrete expression of righteousness;
declaration that a person or thing is righteous;
does not signify character, only position;
the expression and effect of diakaosis (noun)

Signifies:
1) an ordinance; what God has declared to be right; his decree of judgment (Lk 1:6; Ro 1:32, 2:26; 8:4; Heb 9:1, 10),
2) a sentence of acquittal, by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions
--a) of his grace in Christ, through Christ's expiatory sacrifice,
--b) the acceptance of Christ by faith (Ro 5:16),
--c) Christ's one righteous act (as "act" in Rev 15:4, 19:8) of propitiation (Ro 5:18)

The "many meanings" of dikaio, and the contexts determining which meaning, are explained above.

In the Greek, "justification" is
a declaration of guiltlessness, positional right ("rightwise") standing before God (Ro 4:5)
by faith (Ro 3:24)
because of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on guilt of sin at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:1, 33, 34).

Cassian · Apr 22, 2014

Elin said:

Ever hear of the Incarnation and the resurrection? It is not all just about the Cross. without the resurrection the Cross is null and void, The Primary work of Christ was to give life to the world, overcome the condemnation of death to Adam.
But I digress here but to say you have a very long way to go in understanding scriptural soteriology. Just another one to help you I Cor 15:12-22, tell me that life is something other than physical?

Also forgiveness of sins is NOT salvation.

Elin · Apr 22, 2014

Cassian said:

None of which has any bearing on the Greek definitions of "justification," "justify" and "justifier."
(Post #1333)

Then show it according to the NT Greek.

Tell it to Luke (1:77).

Kerry · Apr 22, 2014

Oh well people just don't get it, flesh is flesh and can't see the Spirit for it.

dcontroversal · Apr 22, 2014

newbirth said:

How is it that we can cause the Holy Spirit to grieve?

dcontroversal · Apr 22, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

No doubt and after you give them the 1st century A.D. understanding they try and twist that up into a pretzel and when you call them on that they start twisting it into a re-twisted pretzel so as to earn their OWED salvation which they initiate because the faith and work of Jesus is sub-par and not sufficient to save them to the UTTERMOST<-----LOOK that word up salvation loosers.....

dcontroversal · Apr 22, 2014

Elin said:

P.S.:

Dikaioo (verb) - to justify; to deem to be right;
to show to be right or righteous, passive voice - to be justified (Mt 11:19; Lk 7:35; Ro 3:4; 1Tim 3:16);
to declare to be righteous, to pronounce righteous;
--by man, concerning God (Lk 7:29; Ro 3:4),
--by man concerning himself (Lk 10:29, 16:15),
--by God concerning man, on certain conditions laid down by God (Ro 2:13)
--a) by law-keeping (no such case has occurred in human experience--Ro 3:9-20; Gal 2:16,
---- 3:10, 11, 5:4)
--b) by God himself,
---- the Justifier (Ro 3:26, 8:33), through Christ, as a propitiation
-------- by his blood (Ro 3:25) of those that have faith in Jesus (Ro 5:1);
---- the Judge, his legal and formal acquittal of guilt, saving from his wrath (Ro 5:9) on guilt
-------- at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:1)
--c) through faith, one being justified (Ro 5:1)

resulting in no condemnation (Ro 8:1, 34) at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:33)

Dikaiosis (noun) - justification; act of pronouncing righteous, just by acquittal of guilt (Ro 4:25, 5:18);

its precise meaning is of the verb dikaioo, to justify, above.

Dikaioma (noun) - justification; concrete expression of righteousness;
declaration that a person or thing is righteous;
does not signify character, only position;
the expression and effect of diakaosis (noun)

Signifies:
1) an ordinance; what God has declared to be right; his decree of judgment (Lk 1:6; Ro 1:32, 2:26; 8:4; Heb 9:1, 10),
2) a sentence of acquittal, by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions
--a) of his grace in Christ, through Christ's expiatory sacrifice,
--b) the acceptance of Christ by faith (Ro 5:16),
--c) Christ's one righteous act (as "act" in Rev 15:4, 19:8) of propitiation (Ro 5:18)

The "many meanings" of dikaio, and the contexts determining which meaning, are explained above.

In the Greek, "justification" is
a declaration of guiltlessness, positional right ("rightwise") standing before God (Ro 4:5)
by faith (Ro 3:24)
because of forgiveness of sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on guilt of sin at the Final Judgment (Ro 8:1, 33, 34).[/QUOTE

The definitions of the words speak loud and clear...too bad people who can read are in essence blind to the truth as they have swallowed a fully laden camel while choking on a gnat.....

dcontroversal · Apr 22, 2014

Hoffco said:

Seems to me that the order is...Salvation-->Justification-->Sanctification--->Glorification

SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

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