Saved by Grace through Faith

[flob]

Thank you Marc.
Whether 2 Cor 12:3 begins with 'And' or 'Or,' it is still clear that the 'third heaven' (2) is not 'Paradise' (4).
Because of the conjunction. As well as the separate names in the same small section.

I'm convinced Paul's model is God's. That Paul didn't visit the 3rd floor of a 7-storey mountain.
Just like John, in Jesus' Revelation to him, did not. But rather went to the peak. So to speak. Cf Rev 14:1-5.
Am I correct in guessing that the 3 levels are supposed to be the sky, the expanse above them (space?)..........and then wherever the Lamb physically is now?
When the Lord Jesus was crucified and His soul and spirit left His body, He and the saved thief did not ascend to the heavens, Matthew 12:40. Instead, He went to Paradise, Luke 23:43. Beneath the earth, as the same book as well as the Old Testament, describes. Luke 16:27-31, re 'rising' from the dead, 1 Samuel 28:3-20.
This matter isn't an Element of the faith, once for all delivered to us, but it is interesting, and bears on God's eternal purpose and design to have humans, made up of body and soul and spirit, to fully be His eternal abodes, collectively comprising His assembly, His Father's house, Himself as the Vine, and One New Man. He Himself also...........became flesh, Praise Him!!!
Jn 1:14; Heb 2:14

 

[p_rehbein]

One thing is certain, there is no shortage of opinions...............but, in the end, that is all they are, opinions. ]

The Good News is that one day all will know...........and that is quite possibly the ONLY time there will be an agreement.

 

[SeaBass]

So it is LOL Good job you pointed that out Now tell me. If Christ is the author/source of eternal salvation how can we save ourselves? The source of our salvation is in Him. He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to His own purpose and grace (Tit 3.5). And how has He done it? By REGENERATION and the RENEWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

So if it is not according to works, the obedience mentioned cannot involve works. And of course it does not. It refers to obedience to the Gospel. And how do you obey the Gospel? By BELIEVING in Jesus Christ. (See post 56).



But not me

Christ is the source of salvation and men can "save themselves" by choosing to obey Christ.

Acts 2:40 "save yourselves'
1 Tim 4:16 "save thyself"
1 Pet 1:22 seeing you have purified your souls"
2 Cor 7:1 "cleanse ourselves"


Christ saves those that believe repents confesses and submits to baptism Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16 therefore those that do these obedient works of Christ's, and not his own works, are the ones Christ saves.

Yes, you did try to remove "obey" from Heb 5:9 when you misapplied "not according to our works" of Tts 3:5. Man cannot come up with his own works to meritorously save himself but must do CHRIST'S works to be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

Are you serious, or just dim? obedience unto righteousness is simply saying that as we obey God it produces righteousness. That is the common experience of all Christians. And it occurs because they have been saved and counted as righteous by God. They are obedient because of the righteousness that God has accounted to them and worked in them, and this results in further righteousness. But it all results from God's free gift of salvation (Eph 2.8-10)

Paul did as a matter of fact say obedience UNTO righteousness proving one gains righteousness through obeying...obedience leads to righteousness.
Faith only tries to pervert Paul's words by trying to find a way to make a person righteous WITHOUT having to do any righteous works.

Rom 6:18 "....ye became the servants of righteousness."

How did Paul say they became servants of righteousness? By faith only/no works? NO! By obeying from the heart that form of doctrine. They obeyed, they worked righteousness, in order to be a servant to righteousness, one cannot be a servant to righteousness by doing no work....you cannot be a servant to some thing that you do not do. Faith only therefore can NEVER make one a servant of righteousness.

yes AND HOW HAS THIS HAPPENED? (See the context). . They had been the servants of sin. they responded to God's call to be crucified with Christ and receive renewal of life through His resurrection. And the consequence was that they were freed from sin. They had been saved by God's grace through faith,

How it happened they became servants of righteousness was by OBEYING from the heart that form of doctrine..which is OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS...

Obey from the heart>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then freed from sin, servants of righteousness
Obedience>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness

You evidently do not like that Paul used the word OBEYED so you change/rewrite the verse to read "they responded to God's call to be crucified with Christ and receive renewal of life through His resurrection." in order to try to get around the word "OBEYED".

LOL but to OBEY THE GOSPEL is to BELIEVE. That IS the Gospel. That if you believe you will be saved. And once you have obeyed the Gospel by believing, you will be freed from sin. You should try it Seabass.

Obeying the gospel is NOT believing only. What was the "form of docrtine" they obeyed that freed them from sin? Belief only? No! Belief only faith only is not even to be remotely found in the context.


Rom 6:17,18---obeying that form of doctrine>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>freed them from sin.
Rom 6:7 -------he that is "dead">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>freed from sin.


So whatever that form of doctrine it was they obeyed, it made them "dead". From the context of Rom 6:3-6 it is baptism where one becomes "dead", a baptism into death where the old man of sin dies. Not a single verse anywhere in the bible says faith only makes one dead for that is a phantom verse that appears only in the imagination of faith only advocates.

But believing is not a work. It is a response to an offer. Repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind resulting from hearing the Gospel. The initial confession of Christ is not a work it is the outward response of faith. So all you have left is baptism. And baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is undergone consequent on being saved.

Jn 6:27-29 Jesus Himself call believing a work,
--it is a form of obedience (Jn 3 36 ASV) where "believeth" is contrasted to "obeyeth not",
--believing includes being baptized, Acts 2:40 cf 44 with "believed" in v44 including having accepted Peter's words and baptized from v41.

Repentance is a work, Mt 12:41 cf Jonah 3:10

A public confession before men (Mt 10:32,33) is a work, an act, some thing that is done.

Obeying the command to submit to baptism is an act, some thing done, a work one does.


None of these things are a simple mental assent of the mind that one just thinks about while sitting and doing nothing.

 

[valiant]

Christ is the source of salvation and men can "save themselves" by choosing to obey Christ.

He is not only the source but the AUTHOR. He brings it about. Sinful man cannot choose to obey Christ. To do so would be contrary to their nature, aims, purposes and desires. It is only if Christ saves them that they have any hope. Salvation is of the LORD not of ourselves.

Acts 2:40 "save yourselves'

from what? from this sinful and adulterous generation. it is NOT talking about salvation from sin. It means come out and respond to Christ in order to be saved.

1 Tim 4:16 "save thyself"

you 'forgot' to mention that he was also to save others. How would Timothy save others? by proclaiming to them the word. how was he to save himself? by responding to the word.

thus having been saved once for all by Jesus Christ (Tit 3.5; Eph 2,8-9) he is to carry that salvation into effect by responding to the word of God.

You still haven't got it have you? Or is it that you don't want to get it? I suspect the latter.

Salvation is given to us once for all in Christ, and once we have been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin, we are to walk with Christ while this salvation is carried into effect and worked within us as we respond to His word. This latter is salvation from the POWER of sin..

1 Pet 1:22 seeing you have purified your souls"

Yes once we have been saved we are then called on to cooperate with God to ensure that that salvation is carried into effect. No one suggests that in overcoming sin we are not to cooperate with God.

But notice that this was because they had already been redeemed through the blood of Christ (verses 18-19). Why did you miss that out? Doesn't seem very honest to me. You just select out the bits that suit you. Having 'believed' unto salvation they are to cooperate with God as He carries it into effect.

And how did they purify their inner lives? by being obedient to the truth

2 Cor 7:1 "cleanse ourselves"

yes once we have been saved we are to continually 'cleanse ourselves'. as Jesus said, those who are bathed need continually to wash their feet. And how are we to cleanse ourselves, by cooperating with God in perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

None of these verses are talking about salvation from God's judgment. They are talking about deliverance from sin's power which we achieve by cooperating with God's saving power. This was what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the cross which was the power of God unto salvation to those who are BEING saved. The cross works continually within us as we are constantly 'crucified with Christ'. But this is a consequence of our having been saved from God's judgment on sin.

Christ saves those that believe repents confesses and submits to baptism Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33 Mk 16:16 therefore those that do these obedient works of Christ's, and not his own works, are the ones Christ saves.

NOT OF WORKS (Rom 3.27-28), NOT OF WORKS (Rom 4.5), NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2.8-9), NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH YOU HAVE DONE (Tit 3.5). How soon will that sink in?

You have such odd ideas. Repentance (change of mind) and belief are not things you choose to do. They result from man responding to God's work within them. They hear His promise, believe it and respond. They do not DO anything. They hear, respond and are saved.

You seem to be hung up on baptism. Baptism never saved anyone. 'Christ sent me, NOT to baptise, but to preach the Gospel.' (1 Cor 1.17).

Yes, you did try to remove "obey" from Heb 5:9 when you misapplied "not according to our works" of Tts 3:5. Man cannot come up with his own works to meritorously save himself but must do CHRIST'S works to be saved.

yes you have to 'obey the Gospel' by responding to the word of God.

How can you do Christ's works? HE alone can do those. WE cannot do Christ's works. If we do works they are our own. But thank God He did His works on our behalf, His obedience can be set to our account. That is why we can be 'counted as righteous. Then we are to allow Christ to do His works through us. But that is a FRUIT of salvation. It is not its basis. Your JW doctrine is totally unscriptural. you must look at the whole counsel of God. It is CHRIST Who saves.

 

[SeaBass]

certainly it means that they must constantly respond to God's working within them. Having been saved once for all, they are experiencing that salvation at the hands of Jesus Christ, they must therefore be active in bringing it about. But there is no mention of 'being lost if they quit'. That is your invention. If they show signs of slacking there is a remedy God will chasten them in order to make them renew their efforts (Heb 12.3 ff). But their effort is put into working OUT what God has worked IN..

The verse is saying one cannot be saved until he first starts this work and must continue the work.
No work = no salvation.
God does not work in those who are not working out their own salvation.
God does not work in those that have faith only.
God is working in those that have chosen to obey God's will.
God said one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved so those that do these things then God can be seen working in them by the fact they are working out what God said to do. God is not working salvation in those that refuse to obey His will.

Soooo?

"Work out your salvation" the verb work is middle deponent showing that YOU, the subject, is to do the action/work and God does not passively do the work for you.

But it is not a work in the sense that you mean. They are being commanded to work out the salvation that God is working within them. In other words they are to cooperate with God in His salvation which has become theirs because He has given it to them.. We all agree on that.

"work out your own salvation" the verb works is imperative, a command that must be obeyed else one finds himself in disobedience/unrighteousness before God for failing to do this work.

You post "work out the salvation that God is working within them"

Again, the verb work is middle deponent showing YOU, NOT GOD, but YOU do the work. There is a work YOU are commanded to do (work out your own salvation) and a work that God does. If YOU do not do YOUR WORK (work out your own salvation) then God is not doing HIS work in you.

But it has to be thought out before it can be worked out. We first come to Christ and participate in salvation because we entrust ourselves into His saving hands. We then make sure that we respond to Him and work that salvation out in our daily lives because we have been saved, and we do it knowing that GOD is at work within us..

Paul said to continue to work out your salvation.
Paul did not say "work for you have already been saved"...that's a major rewrite of the verse.
Salvation is something works for and must continue to work for..."work out your own salvation"..want salvation? then WORK it out.

Yes because they have come to Christ for salvation, and have received it one for all, and God and Christ began working that salvation through them so that they began to obey. Paul is talking about Christians who are obeying God. And he wants them to go on obeying God and is urging them to do so, not because it will save them from God's judgment (they are already saved from that) but because it will bring about their salvation from the power of sin.

NO verse says Christ begins to work in one so they can then obey. Christ is NOT working in those that are not first obeying Him. Christ said one must believe repent confess and be baptized to be saved. Only those that do what Christ is Christ working in them. Christ is not working in those that are do no works ( that will not believe repent confess and be baptized.)

The salvation process is NOT:

do disobedience/unrighteousness>>>>>>saved>>>>>then do obedience/righteousness.


1 Jn 3:10 as long as one CONTINUES to NOT do righteousness, then he CONTINUES to NOT be of God/lost. Therefore the only way one can ever be of God/saved is if he first starts doing God's righteousness. Ding "no works" only leaves one unrighteous before God.

They have always obeyed since they were first saved. Having been counted as righteous by God, and having been renewed by the Holy Spirit, they are now living in obedience to Him. And Paul is calling on them to continue their response to God at work within them.

They were counted righteous by God for they first obeyed/worked righteousness. God does not count those that work unrighteous as righteous.

But you are quite wrong in saying that God does not work in those who are not obeying Him. It is because He works in men that they first come to obey Him. (1 Peter 1.2). It is through the sanctifying work of the Spirit that men come to faith. And once having believed they begin to obey Him.

God is not working salvation in those that are not obeying Him. He does work salvation in those that do obey His will in believing repenting confessing and submitting to baptism.

If you command a person to do "x" and that person does not do "x" then you are not working in that person. When that person does do "x" then you are working in that person as seen by that person doing what you commanded them to do.

And as long as that person continues to "worketh not" what you commanded them, then you are not working in them.
Just as John said - he that continues to NOT do righteousness (do what God commanded) then he continues to NOT be of God and God is NOT working in Him.

As I have already shown you, you are all mixed up about salvation. You are like a blind man who feels part of an elephant and then thinks that he can describe the whole. One CAN DO NOTHING towards one's initial salvation. That is wholly the work of God (Titus 3.4-7; Ephesians 2.8-10). But what one CAN DO is work out the salvation that God has GIVEN them and respond to God allowing Him to work through them, working out what God has worked in..

Not a single, solitary verse says "one can do nothing towards one's initial salvation". That is a man made idea through and through, totally and completely foreign to the teaching of the bible.

Peter's listeners in Acts 2 were lost and asked what they must do? Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins.

1) Peter did NOT command them to "worketh not" to be saved/have sins remitted
2) Peter did NOT command them to have faith only to be saved/have sins remitted
3) they could "save yourselves" (v40) by obeying those word of Peter proving there IS something one can do towards his initial salvation.
4) salvation is not a work of God alone, for again, the "work" in "WORK out your own salvation" is middle deponent showing YOU have a work to do in your own salvation. If you do not do YOUR WORK then God is not working in you..he that continues to NOT do righteousness CONTINUES to NOT be of God, 1 Jn 3:10

 

[mwc68]

He is not only the source but the AUTHOR. He brings it about. Sinful man cannot choose to obey Christ. To do so would be contrary to their nature, aims, purposes and desires. It is only if Christ saves them that they have any hope. Salvation is of the LORD not of ourselves.



from what? from this sinful and adulterous generation. it is NOT talking about salvation from sin. It means come out and respond to Christ in order to be saved.



you 'forgot' to mention that he was also to save others. How would Timothy save others? by proclaiming to them the word. how was he to save himself? by responding to the word.

thus having been saved once for all by Jesus Christ (Tit 3.5; Eph 2,8-9) he is to carry that salvation into effect by responding to the word of God.

You still haven't got it have you? Or is it that you don't want to get it? I suspect the latter.

Salvation is given to us once for all in Christ, and once we have been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin, we are to walk with Christ while this salvation is carried into effect and worked within us as we respond to His word. This latter is salvation from the POWER of sin..



Yes once we have been saved we are then called on to cooperate with God to ensure that that salvation is carried into effect. No one suggests that in overcoming sin we are not to cooperate with God.

But notice that this was because they had already been redeemed through the blood of Christ (verses 18-19). Why did you miss that out? Doesn't seem very honest to me. You just select out the bits that suit you. Having 'believed' unto salvation they are to cooperate with God as He carries it into effect.

And how did they purify their inner lives? by being obedient to the truth



yes once we have been saved we are to continually 'cleanse ourselves'. as Jesus said, those who are bathed need continually to wash their feet. And how are we to cleanse ourselves, by cooperating with God in perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

None of these verses are talking about salvation from God's judgment. They are talking about deliverance from sin's power which we achieve by cooperating with God's saving power. This was what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the cross which was the power of God unto salvation to those who are BEING saved. The cross works continually within us as we are constantly 'crucified with Christ'. But this is a consequence of our having been saved from God's judgment on sin.



NOT OF WORKS (Rom 3.27-28), NOT OF WORKS (Rom 4.5), NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2.8-9), NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH YOU HAVE DONE (Tit 3.5). How soon will that sink in?

You have such odd ideas. Repentance (change of mind) and belief are not things you choose to do. They result from man responding to God's work within them. They hear His promise, believe it and respond. They do not DO anything. They hear, respond and are saved.

You seem to be hung up on baptism. Baptism never saved anyone. 'Christ sent me, NOT to baptise, but to preach the Gospel.' (1 Cor 1.17).




yes you have to 'obey the Gospel' by responding to the word of God.

How can you do Christ's works? HE alone can do those. WE cannot do Christ's works. If we do works they are our own. But thank God He did His works on our behalf, His obedience can be set to our account. That is why we can be 'counted as righteous. Then we are to allow Christ to do His works through us. But that is a FRUIT of salvation. It is not its basis. Your JW doctrine is totally unscriptural. you must look at the whole counsel of God. It is CHRIST Who saves.

Didn't sinful men choose to follow Christ? Hmmmm who were these men? Oh Yeah, the Apostles

 

[valiant]

Didn't sinful men choose to follow Christ? Hmmmm who were these men? Oh Yeah, the Apostles

'you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.' It's quite clear really. I rest my case.

 

[mwc68]

'you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.' It's quite clear really. I rest my case.

The choice was still theirs. What of the disciples that LEFT after Jesus explained the Eucharist? Were they not chosen?

 

[SeaBass]

He is not only the source but the AUTHOR. He brings it about. Sinful man cannot choose to obey Christ. To do so would be contrary to their nature, aims, purposes and desires. It is only if Christ saves them that they have any hope. Salvation is of the LORD not of ourselves.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author (the cause) of salvation unto all them that OBEY.
It does NOT say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that "worketh not" or have faith only.

There were sinful men in Acts 2 that chose to obey the words of Peter and the Lord added them to his church.....sinful men certainly can choose to obey God. Man does not have a totally depraved sinful nature...another false idea man has added to the bible. Again, Peter's listeners in Acts 2 were lost yet while in that lost state they heard and understood what Peter said so much so they were pricked in the hearts by those words and desired to know what to do about what Peter convicted them of and even obeyed what Peter commanded them to do...no total depravity, sinful nature here at all. None of this would have happen if there were such a thing as total depravity.

from what? from this sinful and adulterous generation. it is NOT talking about salvation from sin. It means come out and respond to Christ in order to be saved.

That adulterous generation was lost in their sins and if Peter's listeners did not want to be lost they had better obey Peter's words so they could have "remission of sins".


Why did they ask Peter what they must do? Peter told them they were lost and they wanted to know what to do about their lost state.
Why would Peter command them how to have their sins remitted if he was not telling them they were lost in thier sins?
Peter convicted them of murdering the Messiah with their evil hands, a sin they were guilty of and have to have remitted if they wanted to be saved.

No where did Peter command them to "respond to Christ" but commanded them to repent and be baptized FOR REMISSION OF SINS..clearly Peter was talking about salvation from sin.

you 'forgot' to mention that he was also to save others. How would Timothy save others? by proclaiming to them the word. how was he to save himself? by responding to the word.

thus having been saved once for all by Jesus Christ (Tit 3.5; Eph 2,8-9) he is to carry that salvation into effect by responding to the word of God.

You still haven't got it have you? Or is it that you don't want to get it? I suspect the latter.

Salvation is given to us once for all in Christ, and once we have been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin, we are to walk with Christ while this salvation is carried into effect and worked within us as we respond to His word. This latter is salvation from the POWER of sin..

Paul told him to save thyself and them that hear thee. My point being Peter told Timothy to "save thyself" proving Timothy had a role in his own salvation...that role being working out his own salvation.

Heb 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

If Heb 10:10 is the "once for all " you are referring to, Christ's sacrifice is being compared to hose animal sacrifices of the OT. Those animal sacrifices had to made over and over and over again for sins where Christ's sacrifice on the cross need to be done just once.

Yes once we have been saved we are then called on to cooperate with God to ensure that that salvation is carried into effect. No one suggests that in overcoming sin we are not to cooperate with God.

No one is first saved, THEN co-operates with God...no one is first saved while not co-operating, disobeying God.
Again as long as one continues to not do righteousness he continues to not be of God.

But notice that this was because they had already been redeemed through the blood of Christ (verses 18-19). Why did you miss that out? Doesn't seem very honest to me. You just select out the bits that suit you. Having 'believed' unto salvation they are to cooperate with God as He carries it into effect.

1 Pet 1:22 "seeing YOU have purified YOUR souls."

How could they purify their own souls...save themselves? It suppose to be the blood of Christ that purifies one's soul.
They could purify their own souls in the sense by obeying the gospel by submittijng to baptism where the blood of Christ washed away their sins. Again, they had a role in their own salvation to work out by submitting to baptism so Christ's blood can cleanse away their sins/purify their souls.

And how did they purify their inner lives? by being obedient to the truth

Yes, OBEDIENT to the truth/gospel of Christ. That obedience to the truth is how they worked out thier own salvation..purified their own souls.

yes once we have been saved we are to continually 'cleanse ourselves'. as Jesus said, those who are bathed need continually to wash their feet. And how are we to cleanse ourselves, by cooperating with God in perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

One that is a Christian must continue to walk in the light so that Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 jn 1;7. This continual walk in the light is part of that continual working out one's salvation.

None of these verses are talking about salvation from God's judgment. They are talking about deliverance from sin's power which we achieve by cooperating with God's saving power. This was what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the cross which was the power of God unto salvation to those who are BEING saved. The cross works continually within us as we are constantly 'crucified with Christ'. But this is a consequence of our having been saved from God's judgment on sin.

I posted those verses for they demonstrate that man can save himself and he saves himself in the sense by obeying God's will. So man works out his own salvation", "purifies his own soul" and "saves himself" by obeying God's will.

NOT OF WORKS (Rom 3.27-28), NOT OF WORKS (Rom 4.5), NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2.8-9), NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH YOU HAVE DONE (Tit 3.5). How soon will that sink in?

You pull these "not of works" verses out of the bible and isolate them for all the verses that requires one to do work out his salvation in obey the will of God. So these "not of works" do not eliminate works in obeying the will of God but eliminate works of merit and works of the OT law from salvation.

In Rom 4:1-4 Abraham was said to be one that "worketh not" yet Abraham certainly did do works, Heb 11:8;17; Gen 26:5.
This is not a contradiction when it is said Abraham worketh not" he did not work to keep the law perfectly so that he could merit salvation. Yet he did do obedient works by which he was justified. Therefore:

---all works are not the same else one has a contradiction with Abraham both 'working not' when he did do works
---works of merit do not save and thses are not the works that Abraham worketh not
---works of obedience in doing God's will does save and these are the works Abraham did do that he was justified by.

You have such odd ideas. Repentance (change of mind) and belief are not things you choose to do. They result from man responding to God's work within them. They hear His promise, believe it and respond. They do not DO anything. They hear, respond and are saved.

Both repentance and believing are things man has been commanded to do and that command implies that man has the ability, responsibility ,accountability for doing these things.

So God is working in those that do the work of repenting and believing. You keep trying to find a way to put all the work on God while man sits and does nothing yet God is not working in those that sit and do nothing.

You seem to be hung up on baptism. Baptism never saved anyone. 'Christ sent me, NOT to baptise, but to preach the Gospel.' (1 Cor 1.17).

Baptism doth also now save us, 1 Pet 3:21
he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

So baptism is a PART of the salvation, its the means by which God has chose n to save man where men come into contact with the blood of Christ that washes away sins.

Paul was baptized himself to wash away his sins Acts 22:16, he baptized others, 1 Cor 1:14,16 and taught the necessity of baptism, 1 Cor 1:13,14; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12-14 Rom 6:3-7, etc.

IN Christ's great commission (Mt 28:19,10; Mk 16:156,16) Christ commission all His disciples including Paul to go, teach and baptize. Christ would not commission Paul to go and baptize then tell Paul not to baptize for that constitutes a contradiction.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: "

THis is a not-but elliptical statement where,as in 1 Pet 3:3,4 where emphasis is put on one thing (preaching) over another (baptizing) but not to the exclusion of baptizing for again, Paul DID baptize 1 Cor 1:114,16. As in 1 Pet 3:3,4 where Peter put emphasis on the inward adorning over the outward adorning but not the the exclusion of the outward adorning for wives are not to go without putting on apparel.

yes you have to 'obey the Gospel' by responding to the word of God.

This obeying is how one works out his own salvation.

How can you do Christ's works? HE alone can do those. WE cannot do Christ's works. If we do works they are our own. But thank God He did His works on our behalf, His obedience can be set to our account. That is why we can be 'counted as righteous. Then we are to allow Christ to do His works through us. But that is a FRUIT of salvation. It is not its basis. Your JW doctrine is totally unscriptural. you must look at the whole counsel of God. It is CHRIST Who saves.

Christ told man to believe, repent, confess and be baptized these are Christ's works He has given man to do so when pone believes he sis dong Christ's work, the work of God that God has given man to do.

Rev 2:26 ":"
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations."

So man certainly can do Christ's works for man had been commanded to keep Christ's works....keeping Christ's works meaning doing what Christ said to do.

 

[Stephen63]

To whom much is given....much is required.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Luke 12:47-48 (KJV) [SUP]47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [SUP]48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It is of absolute necessity that the truth be told..... NO ONE CAN BE SAVED BY WORKS. It is by God's grace thru our present, continuous faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved. Good works are merely the evidence of a real & active faith in Christ. Without that evidence manifested, I believe it's safe to say that the faith isn't manifested, either. It's the evidence of good works that brings glory to God.
Matthew 5:14-16 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [SUP]16[/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Good works doesn't save us, but they are the evidence that we are saved. Good works is our "shining light" that brings glory to God.

 

[p_rehbein]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Good works doesn't save us, but they are the evidence that we are saved. Good works is our "shining light" that brings glory to God.

Yes..............

 

[mailmandan]

Are you serious, or just dim?

Try blind.

obedience unto righteousness is simply saying that as we obey God it produces righteousness. That is the common experience of all Christians. And it occurs because they have been saved and counted as righteous by God. They are obedient because of the righteousness that God has accounted to them and worked in them, and this results in further righteousness. But it all results from God's free gift of salvation (Eph 2.8-10) yes AND HOW HAS THIS HAPPENED? (See the context). . They had been the servants of sin. they responded to God's call to be crucified with Christ and receive renewal of life through His resurrection. And the consequence was that they were freed from sin. They had been saved by God's grace through faith,

Notice how he ignores "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are "unto righteousness" (cause us to become righteous/as if we are saved by works). Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to save themselves by works. Just look at the Pharisees.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

LOL but to OBEY THE GOSPEL is to BELIEVE. That IS the Gospel. That if you believe you will be saved. And once you have obeyed the Gospel by believing, you will be freed from sin. You should try it Seabass.

He REFUSES to REPENT and BELIEVE the Gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the Gospel by choosing to believe the Gospel. Refusing to obey the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to believe the Gospel. Those who refuse to believe the Gospel trust in works to save them.

The Gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The Gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The Gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).

But believing is not a work. It is a response to an offer. Repentance is not a work, it is a change of mind resulting from hearing the Gospel. The initial confession of Christ is not a work it is the outward response of faith. So all you have left is baptism. And baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is undergone consequent on being saved.

Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repenting is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe (trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation). Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation and He gets 100% credit for our salvation. Water baptism and other works that follow "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) are not the means of our salvation and faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works.

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, "BEFORE WATER BAPTISM - Acts 10:43-47" (Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

 

[valiant]

The choice was still theirs. What of the disciples that LEFT after Jesus explained the Eucharist? Were they not chosen?

No, that is why in the end they left. They were hangers on not those who had been called.

 

[valiant]

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author (the cause) of salvation unto all them that OBEY.
It does NOT say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that "worketh not" or have faith only.

you really are lacking in understanding, aren't you? that Christ was the AUTHOR (commencer and cause) of their salvation EXPLAINS why they obeyed Him.

Once Christ has been the Author of a man's salvation that man is 'created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God had before ordained that he should walk in them' (Eph 2.10). So OF COURSE it would not say that. Works RESULT from a man's salvation

There were sinful men in Acts 2 that chose to obey the words of Peter and the Lord added them to his church.....sinful men certainly can choose to obey God.

They did not 'choose' to obey the words of Peter. They responded to the Holy Spirit working in their hearts and followed Peter's guidance. They had ASKED 'what shall we do?' Peter simply showed them.

you are so blind to truth that it is almost unbelievable. Stop reading your Watchtower books and start studying the Bible as a whole.

 

[valiant]

sinful men certainly can choose to obey God.

why should a sinful man choose to obey God? He chooses the way of sin because of what he is.

Man does not have a totally depraved sinful nature..

do you even understand this term? it merely indicates that every part of him is affected by sin.

Again, Peter's listeners in Acts 2 were lost yet while in that lost state they heard and understood what Peter said so much so they were pricked in the hearts by those words and desired to know what to do about what Peter convicted them of and even obeyed what Peter commanded them to do...no total depravity, sinful nature here at all. None of this would have happen if there were such a thing as total depravity.

why were their hearts pricked? Because the Holy Spirit had convicted them of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16.8-11). It was His work, not the desires of their own hearts, that caused them to want salvation. Peter was just God's instrument. 'Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.' Peter did not COMMAND them. He answered their question as to what they should do. It was between them and God. But it would not have happened without the work of the Holy Spirit.

You simply show that you haven't a clue what 'total depravity' means. You are mixed up on that like you are mixed up on everything else.

Why did they ask Peter what they must do? Peter told them they were lost and they wanted to know what to do about their lost state.

Now at last you are getting closer to the truth. They asked Peter what to do. Be careful or you may be converted. But in fact he did NOT tell them that they were lost, he told them about Jesus, and how He had died and risen again and was now enthroned in Heaven as their LORD and Messiah.

Why would Peter command them how to have their sins remitted if he was not telling them they were lost in thier sins?

well he did know that thy were lost in their sins, but he had not told them that. He left the Holy Spirit to convict them. And that is what He had done, breaking through their sinfulness to reach their inner heart.

Peter convicted them of murdering the Messiah with their evil hands, a sin they were guilty of and have to have remitted if they wanted to be saved.

No the Holy Spirit convicted them of it. Peter simply preached it.

No where did Peter command them to "respond to Christ" but commanded them to repent and be baptized FOR REMISSION OF SINS..clearly Peter was talking about salvation from sin.

Were they not responding to Christ? That was precisely WHO they were responding to. That is the One Whom the message had been all about.

And Peter did not 'command' them. He responded to their question. He told them HOW to respond to Christ. Having been convicted, and having believed in Jesus Christ, they were to change their minds and their allegiance. And they would demonstrate this by being baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ, demonstrating their commitment to HIM. It was an act demonstrating their new found BELIEF. (or are you suggesting they would do it without believing?) It was their response in faith that would result in their being saved. baptism was just outward evidence of it.

 

[valiant]

Paul told him to save thyself and them that hear thee. My point being Peter told Timothy to "save thyself" proving Timothy had a role in his own salvation...that role being working out his own salvation.

if you got your quotes from the Bible instead of from your Watchtower books you would know the context. Timothy was already SAVED (Tit 3.5; Eph 2.8-9). Having been saved he now had to respond to God's working so as to ensure that that salvation continued to work effectively in him. And how was he to do that? Not by struggling to overcome sin but by taking heed to himself and to what he taught. He was to study what he himself was teaching from the Scriptures. And the word of God would renew him and enable him to be 'saved' from the sin still at work in his life. It was not initial salvation that he was seeking. He knew that he was already accepted by God and accounted as righteous in God's eyes and born again of the Spirit of God. What he would be seeking would be the purifying work of the word in his life effected by the Spirit. THAT was how he would 'save himself' from the power of sin. 'The washing of water with the word' (Eph 5.25-27)

As he read and thought on the word he would be enabled to 'energise out his own salvation' (cause the salvation God had given him to be effective) because God would be at work in him to will and do of His good pleasure' (Phil 2.12-13). It was all God's work not his. He simply responded.

 

[Sirk]

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Luke 12:47-48 (KJV) [SUP]47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. [SUP]48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

It is of absolute necessity that the truth be told..... NO ONE CAN BE SAVED BY WORKS. It is by God's grace thru our present, continuous faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved. Good works are merely the evidence of a real & active faith in Christ. Without that evidence manifested, I believe it's safe to say that the faith isn't manifested, either. It's the evidence of good works that brings glory to God.
Matthew 5:14-16 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. [SUP]16[/SUP]Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Good works doesn't save us, but they are the evidence that we are saved. Good works is our "shining light" that brings glory to God.

And here I thought you held a different view than this. Not sure why I did but I am glad to see we are in agreement. I always like to say that good works are a symptom of a transformed life.

 

[valiant]

Heb 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

If Heb 10:10 is the "once for all " you are referring to, Christ's sacrifice is being compared to hose animal sacrifices of the OT. Those animal sacrifices had to made over and over and over again for sins where Christ's sacrifice on the cross need to be done just once.

well I wasn't referring to this verse. But let's have a look at it. It is saying that we who believe are sanctified by Christ's WILL revealed in full obedience when He offered himself on the cross once for all. In other words as a consequence of HIS willing obedience we are sanctified to God. We are His, not because of what we have done, but because of what He has done.

No one is first saved, THEN co-operates with God...no one is first saved while not co-operating, disobeying God.
Again as long as one continues to not do righteousness he continues to not be of God.

LOL but that is what the verse in Hebrews SAYS. That we are saved because of His act of will in offering Himself. By His act of obedience we are sanctified in God's eyes, set apart as His. As a consequence of that we will experience continual sanctifying from then on carried out by GOD (John 17.17; 1 Cor 1.18). So we are first saved, and then we begin cooperating with God as a consequence of our salvation, resulting in that saving work being effective in our lives.

It is as a consequence of that saving activity that we begin to do righteousness.

But BEFORE we are righteous Christ 'justifies the ungodly' (Rom 4.5). so how can you say they are not saved without cooperating.?

 

[valiant]

1 Pet 1:22 "seeing YOU have purified YOUR souls."

How could they purify their own souls...save themselves

It says nothing about saving themselves. It talks only of them purifying their inner lives.

How do they do this? 'by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently from the heart.' Note that it is talking to those who are already Christians. Having been redeemed by the blood of Christ they are to obey the truth by loving their fellow-Christians. By this they 'purify themselves'. This comes AFTER initial salvation. I have already explained this to you before. You just ignore what you are told and quote from your Watchtower books.

So this purifying occurs AFTER they have been saved. First they are begotten again by the Holy Spirit, and are cleansed in the blood of Christ once for all (verses 18-19), then they enter into the process of purifying their lives by obeying Him in loving one another. Jesus described this when He said, 'he who is bathed needs to do nothing afterwards but wash his feet'. They set about 'purifying themselves' AFTER they have been cleansed in the blood of Jesus (bathed).

It is supposed to be the blood of Christ that purifies one's soul.

The blood of Christ first cleanses the whole being. you are quite right in that. and it continues to do so whenever they sin (1 John 1.7). So having been purified once for all they undergo continual purifying.

They could purify their own souls in the sense by obeying the gospel by submittijng to baptism where the blood of Christ washed away their sins.

now you are totally ignoring the context of the words. they purify themselves by loving their fellow-Christians AFTER they have been saved. it says nothing about their doing it by obeying the Gospel.