Saved by Water
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It is difficult to keep people apart, when they have similar ideas. Sorry.
Can you prove from the text that Cornelius didn't receive forgiveness of sins UNTIL Peter baptized him?
In FACT, Peter didn't order the baptism UNTIL he saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit in him, which clearly proves that Cornelius was SAVED and received forgiveness of sins BEFORE being water baptized.
"must"??? Sounds like a command. The Holy Spirit is received PASSIVELY when one believes. As Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 show.
This is clearly shown by the following records:
And in addition, everyone must receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They are two separate experiences. This is clearly shown by the following records:
Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Ghost first and were later water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38, 10:44-48)[/QUOTE]
Acts 2:38 occurred within months of Jesus' ascension. Not a bunch of years later.
Cornelius' account occurred later than Acts 2:38. Certainly not before.
You can't prove anything from Acts 8 and simon the sorcerer. There is NO details about either the townfolk who believed and were baptized or Simon himself.
Acts 19 occurred after Cornelius. Only shows there wasn't consistency in the very early church.
What is clear is that both Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 is the biblical pattern for everyone.
Your opinion.
Can you prove from the text that Cornelius didn't receive forgiveness of sins UNTIL Peter baptized him?
In FACT, Peter didn't order the baptism UNTIL he saw the evidence of the Holy Spirit in him, which clearly proves that Cornelius was SAVED and received forgiveness of sins BEFORE being water baptized.
"must"??? Sounds like a command. The Holy Spirit is received PASSIVELY when one believes. As Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 show.
This is clearly shown by the following records:
And in addition, everyone must receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They are two separate experiences. This is clearly shown by the following records:
Jews and Gentiles received the Holy Ghost first and were later water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38, 10:44-48)[/QUOTE]
Acts 2:38 occurred within months of Jesus' ascension. Not a bunch of years later.
Cornelius' account occurred later than Acts 2:38. Certainly not before.
You can't prove anything from Acts 8 and simon the sorcerer. There is NO details about either the townfolk who believed and were baptized or Simon himself.
Acts 19 occurred after Cornelius. Only shows there wasn't consistency in the very early church.
What is clear is that both Cornelius and Gal 3:2,5 is the biblical pattern for everyone.
Your opinion.
FreeGrace2 said:
No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.
Since my quote shows what the verse SAYS, just rearranging a few words, you are demonstrating a very poor grasp of English.
The real issue here is your refusal to admit that "remission of sins" is based on "believing in Him". This is grade school simple.
No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.
Since my quote shows what the verse SAYS, just rearranging a few words, you are demonstrating a very poor grasp of English.
The real issue here is your refusal to admit that "remission of sins" is based on "believing in Him". This is grade school simple.
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S
this is true
I have changed my mind more than once when I was given sufficient understanding regarding something I believed that turned out to be wrong
this is how we all grow. we have examples in scripture that sometimes a person can hold a wrong understanding and receive correction
the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online
I have changed my mind more than once when I was given sufficient understanding regarding something I believed that turned out to be wrong
this is how we all grow. we have examples in scripture that sometimes a person can hold a wrong understanding and receive correction
the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online
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Those who do not believe in Jesus are in fact condemned already; they would have no intention of getting baptized in the first place. However, on the other hand those who believe are expected to realize water baptism in the name of Jesus is required and obey the command. In doing so, as Jesus said those believers shall be saved.
Thank you for the apology.
I realize that the initial experience of the 120 Jews on the Day of Pentecost and Gentiles experiences did not occur around the same time. My intent was to point out the sequence of their receiving the Holy Ghost and afterward getting water baptized is what they had in common. Whereas, the Samaritans and the 12 Ephesus disciples got water baptized in the name of Jesus first, and afterward received the Holy Ghost. These records show that there is no significance in one experience happening before the other. What is necessary is that both occur. Keep in mind that truth is established by at least 2-3 scriptures expressing the same thing. The referenced scriptures meet this requirement. Some will receive the Holy Ghost before getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (2 confirming records), while others will get water baptized in the name of Jesus first and receive the Holy Ghost afterward. (2 confirming records)
I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to prove anything concerning the record in Acts 8. What the scripture does point out is the Samaritans believed Philip' message concerning the kingdom and the name of Jesus and were baptized. Verse 16 confirms the baptism was in the name of Jesus. Sometime later Peter and John traveled from Jerusalem to Samaria and assisted the group in receiving the Holy Ghost. The only thing we know for sure about Simon the sorcerer is that he got water baptized along with the others. Verse 21 would seem to indicate that he had not done it for the right reason.
The Apostle Paul's interaction with the group in Acts 19 happened well after the Gentile experience. And it is yet another example that getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is required. The group had submitted to John's water baptism. However, Paul informs them about their need to believe in Jesus and they get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Afterward Paul assists them in receiving the Holy Ghost. This record is a clear example that all individual's must obey the command first given on the Day of Pentecost.
I realize that the initial experience of the 120 Jews on the Day of Pentecost and Gentiles experiences did not occur around the same time. My intent was to point out the sequence of their receiving the Holy Ghost and afterward getting water baptized is what they had in common. Whereas, the Samaritans and the 12 Ephesus disciples got water baptized in the name of Jesus first, and afterward received the Holy Ghost. These records show that there is no significance in one experience happening before the other. What is necessary is that both occur. Keep in mind that truth is established by at least 2-3 scriptures expressing the same thing. The referenced scriptures meet this requirement. Some will receive the Holy Ghost before getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (2 confirming records), while others will get water baptized in the name of Jesus first and receive the Holy Ghost afterward. (2 confirming records)
I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to prove anything concerning the record in Acts 8. What the scripture does point out is the Samaritans believed Philip' message concerning the kingdom and the name of Jesus and were baptized. Verse 16 confirms the baptism was in the name of Jesus. Sometime later Peter and John traveled from Jerusalem to Samaria and assisted the group in receiving the Holy Ghost. The only thing we know for sure about Simon the sorcerer is that he got water baptized along with the others. Verse 21 would seem to indicate that he had not done it for the right reason.
The Apostle Paul's interaction with the group in Acts 19 happened well after the Gentile experience. And it is yet another example that getting water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is required. The group had submitted to John's water baptism. However, Paul informs them about their need to believe in Jesus and they get water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Afterward Paul assists them in receiving the Holy Ghost. This record is a clear example that all individual's must obey the command first given on the Day of Pentecost.
SophieT said:
the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online
Possibly Satan was getting more desperate or anxious for the end times. Or just preparing the way for it. 1 Tim 4:1
the glaring confusion of this Oneness Pentecostalism is cultish in its persuasions IMO and in fact, it is considered a cult by many which can be shown be doing a simple search online
Possibly Satan was getting more desperate or anxious for the end times. Or just preparing the way for it. 1 Tim 4:1
You're welcome.
My point is that by the time Paul wrote Galatians, somewhere between 49-55 AD, the clear pattern was to receive the Spirit by faith in Christ.
There is no mention of them receiving the Holy Spirit. That's all.
You are free to doubt the veracity of Luke, but this is what he wrote about it:
Luke 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
He used the same words for both the residents and Simon.
If you want to think that Simon wasn't saved, that's your opinion. But the wording PROVES that he was.
My point is that by the time Paul wrote Galatians, somewhere between 49-55 AD, the clear pattern was to receive the Spirit by faith in Christ.
There is no mention of them receiving the Holy Spirit. That's all.
You are free to doubt the veracity of Luke, but this is what he wrote about it:
Luke 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
He used the same words for both the residents and Simon.
If you want to think that Simon wasn't saved, that's your opinion. But the wording PROVES that he was.
S
must have been a run on phoney angels preaching 'another' gospel
making a bad joke there, but we see in scripture that there are deceiving spirits going about preaching lies and the devil himself disguises himself and comes as an angel of light...I am sure you know that
they have been around since the garden, either completely changing the truth or creating subtle shifts in the truth
like saying 'did God really say that?'
but I have to say that these Oneness folk just totally throw out what is plainly written and have created another gospel, another Jesus and another religion altogether
FreeGrace2 said:
No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.
No, we are NOT "past that point".
The entire point is that sins are forgiven on the basis of believing.
If your statement was correct, then Acts 10:43 is very misleading and WRONG.
Paul's answer to the jailer would also be misleading, because gettting saved MEANS having your sins forgiven.
And though Paul did baptize the jailer, there is no indication that it was for forgiveness.
The jailer was saved on the basis of "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ", and That ALONE.
So many verses refute your theory.
No, if you believe you will have your sins forgiven. Acts 10:43 says so plainly.
No, we are NOT "past that point".
The entire point is that sins are forgiven on the basis of believing.
If your statement was correct, then Acts 10:43 is very misleading and WRONG.
Paul's answer to the jailer would also be misleading, because gettting saved MEANS having your sins forgiven.
And though Paul did baptize the jailer, there is no indication that it was for forgiveness.
The jailer was saved on the basis of "believing on the Lord Jesus Christ", and That ALONE.
So many verses refute your theory.
Thanks for pointing out those scripture verses in Luke 8 that state Simon did believe Philip's message and therefore submitted to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus.
I can only conclude from your other comments that you do not agree that a person must also receive the Holy Ghost, as the group did in Acts 8:17, in order to be saved. If my conclusion is correct, please consider that the biblical record is consistent. The conversion experiences of all groups of humanity (Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans) as well as individuals in the Acts 19 account, and the Apostle Paul himself (Acts 9:17-18, 22:16) included receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Lord Jesus.
I can only conclude from your other comments that you do not agree that a person must also receive the Holy Ghost, as the group did in Acts 8:17, in order to be saved. If my conclusion is correct, please consider that the biblical record is consistent. The conversion experiences of all groups of humanity (Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans) as well as individuals in the Acts 19 account, and the Apostle Paul himself (Acts 9:17-18, 22:16) included receiving the Holy Ghost and being water baptized in the name of Lord Jesus.
My comment was relative to what Jesus said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He did not say get baptized after you're saved.
My comment:
"Those who do not believe in Jesus are in fact condemned already; they would have no intention of getting baptized in the first place. However, on the other hand those who believe are expected to realize water baptism in the name of Jesus is required and obey the command. In doing so, as Jesus said those believers shall be saved."
Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He did not say get baptized after you're saved.
My comment:
"Those who do not believe in Jesus are in fact condemned already; they would have no intention of getting baptized in the first place. However, on the other hand those who believe are expected to realize water baptism in the name of Jesus is required and obey the command. In doing so, as Jesus said those believers shall be saved."