Saved by Water

[SophieT]

Believing in Jesus is not just recognizing who he is. Belief requires accepting everything that he said while here on earth, as well as the commandments he gave to his apostles through the Holy Ghost.

uh huh. so now we have another caveat to salvation

if you don't know everything Jesus said, then you had better find out or you are not saved

there is a minor little problem there though. not everything He said was recorded. oooops

conclusion: no one is saved according to Blik

thankfully, that is not the definition of salvation. this is what scripture actually teaches:

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

[FreeGrace2]

posthuman said:
John 5:24 mentions His word and belief and God here declares that those things together produce eternal life & salvation from judgement.
not H2O, but Christ.

if the Bible taught H2O baptism saved we should evangelize not with the gospel and the scripture but by walking around with squirt guns & buckets.
that is not the case.

Christ baptized no one with H2O. He did that on purpose; He is omniscient God. He baptizes with fire and with spirit.

You supply John 5:24 as evidence that water baptism is not required. When in fact it speaks to the very truth that it is.

It speaks to the truth of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

Believing in Jesus is not just recognizing who he is.

Of course. One must put their trust in who He is and what He has done on our behalf.

Belief requires accepting everything that he said while here on earth, as well as the commandments he gave to his apostles through the Holy Ghost.

No, specifically, belief is trusting in what He did to save you. No one knows "everything He said while here on earth". Not even yourself.

One MUST believe what Jesus said about salvation. That's saving faith.

Acts 1:1-2
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Notice what the apostles taught after receiving the Holy Ghost, and remember as the scripture above shows the commandment came directly from Jesus through the Holy Ghost.

Did you read the rest of ch 1? v.1-2 refer to Jesus giving the Great Commission directly (face to face) to the 11 apostles.

All who believed were commanded to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

I've already given you a long list of verses from Acts about people getting saved with no mention of being water baptized.

I've already been over Acts 2:38 so you have no case with that verse. 22:16 is Paul's account of what Ananias told him after he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul had already realized by the time Ananias visited him that Jesus was the Messiah. So what Ananias told Paul to do had NOTHING to do with getting saved. He was already saved.

8:12-18 is about a city in Samaria and Simon the sorcerer. Yes, they all got water baptized when they believed. They were identifying themselves with Christ as a RITUAL. Did you read all the verses. None had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. Not until the apostles laid their hands on them. Nothing about water baptism being necessary for salvation.

10:44-48 doesn't help you either. This is the case of Cornelius. They received the Holy Spirit (baptism) BEFORE water baptism. And 11:15-17 clearly explains the baptism by which they were saved.

Regarding 19:1-6, here are v.5,6-
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

I believe the 2 verses are speaking of the same thing. But they were already SAVED before meeting Paul. Because they were described as "disciples".

What you seem to fail to realize is that to reject what God's word states is to in fact reject Jesus who is the word manifested in the flesh.

What you obviously fail to realize is that you can't defend your position on water baptism. It is a command for believers, those already saved.

Water saves no one. And the Bible gives us 2 very clear examples of water KILLING lots of people. Noah and the Red Sea.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48

I don't reject Jesus or His words. I reject your misunderstanding of His words.

You seem unable to distinguish between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism, even though Scripture is clear about them being different.

Mark 1:8 - I (John) baptize you with water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Until or unless you are able to figure this out, you will never understand the biblical teaching about baptism.

 

[posthuman]

You supply John 5:24 as evidence that water baptism is not required

I'm afraid you have a one-track mind toward arguing on this topic.
I have said nothing against baptism being commanded at all.

What I said was that we need to consider why it's ridiculous to dump water on people who do not believe: because it is not H2O that saves people or cleanses them from sin. There is something else.

 

[posthuman]

posthuman said:
John 5:24 mentions His word and belief and God here declares that those things together produce eternal life & salvation from judgement.
not H2O, but Christ.

if the Bible taught H2O baptism saved we should evangelize not with the gospel and the scripture but by walking around with squirt guns & buckets.
that is not the case.

Christ baptized no one with H2O. He did that on purpose; He is omniscient God. He baptizes with fire and with spirit.

It speaks to the truth of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.


Of course. One must put their trust in who He is and what He has done on our behalf.


No, specifically, belief is trusting in what He did to save you. No one knows "everything He said while here on earth". Not even yourself.

One MUST believe what Jesus said about salvation. That's saving faith.


Did you read the rest of ch 1? v.1-2 refer to Jesus giving the Great Commission directly (face to face) to the 11 apostles.


I've already given you a long list of verses from Acts about people getting saved with no mention of being water baptized.

I've already been over Acts 2:38 so you have no case with that verse. 22:16 is Paul's account of what Ananias told him after he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul had already realized by the time Ananias visited him that Jesus was the Messiah. So what Ananias told Paul to do had NOTHING to do with getting saved. He was already saved.

8:12-18 is about a city in Samaria and Simon the sorcerer. Yes, they all got water baptized when they believed. They were identifying themselves with Christ as a RITUAL. Did you read all the verses. None had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. Not until the apostles laid their hands on them. Nothing about water baptism being necessary for salvation.

10:44-48 doesn't help you either. This is the case of Cornelius. They received the Holy Spirit (baptism) BEFORE water baptism. And 11:15-17 clearly explains the baptism by which they were saved.

Regarding 19:1-6, here are v.5,6-
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

I believe the 2 verses are speaking of the same thing. But they were already SAVED before meeting Paul. Because they were described as "disciples".


What you obviously fail to realize is that you can't defend your position on water baptism. It is a command for believers, those already saved.

Water saves no one. And the Bible gives us 2 very clear examples of water KILLING lots of people. Noah and the Red Sea.


I don't reject Jesus or His words. I reject your misunderstanding of His words.

You seem unable to distinguish between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism, even though Scripture is clear about them being different.

Mark 1:8 - I (John) baptize you with water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Until or unless you are able to figure this out, you will never understand the biblical teaching about baptism.

Thank you

 

[Wansvic]

My point is that the ark saved Noah and family FROM the water. iow, they didn't even get wet. Just as the Israelites who walked on dry ground in the midst of the Red Sea and didn't get wet either, yet Paul described them as having been baptized "in the sea" in 1 Cor 10:1-5. It was the entire Egyptian army that were immersed IN the water and were killed by the water.

Water is dangerous. It kills people and animals. Why some believers get the notion that water baptism saves is sad.

It is the baptism with the Holy Spirit that saves us. That baptism occurs the moment one believes in the Lord Jesus for salvation.

And 1 Pet 3:21 makes that point.

The old "man" along with their sin is dead and buried in the waters of baptism. The spiritual process takes place upon one's obedience to the God-given command and God provides the life giving Spirit.

 

[KelbyofGod]

well thanks for the hearts kelby, but no answer

maybe that is actually an answer

Well, I was actually hoping to put some prayer into it to see if God would grant an answer that gets us past the 'pass' or 'fail-and-i-write-you-off' nature of your question, but I guess a sufficient answer might be "Because baptism began as, and remains, the mechanism established by God for remission of sins (to those that believe)... and because remission of sins is a necessary element of salvation, YES, I believe baptism is necessary, not optional, if a person would like to claim the fullness of salvation." But Jesus didn't just die to grant us remission of sins...so unless people get the rest, they still can't claim fullness of salvation, even if they've gotten their sins washed away.

That should at least make my position on water baptism clear, and give you enough information that you could dig further IF you really want to know.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Wansvic]

posthuman said:
John 5:24 mentions His word and belief and God here declares that those things together produce eternal life & salvation from judgement.
not H2O, but Christ.

if the Bible taught H2O baptism saved we should evangelize not with the gospel and the scripture but by walking around with squirt guns & buckets.
that is not the case.

Christ baptized no one with H2O. He did that on purpose; He is omniscient God. He baptizes with fire and with spirit.

It speaks to the truth of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.


Of course. One must put their trust in who He is and what He has done on our behalf.


No, specifically, belief is trusting in what He did to save you. No one knows "everything He said while here on earth". Not even yourself.

One MUST believe what Jesus said about salvation. That's saving faith.


Did you read the rest of ch 1? v.1-2 refer to Jesus giving the Great Commission directly (face to face) to the 11 apostles.


I've already given you a long list of verses from Acts about people getting saved with no mention of being water baptized.

I've already been over Acts 2:38 so you have no case with that verse. 22:16 is Paul's account of what Ananias told him after he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul had already realized by the time Ananias visited him that Jesus was the Messiah. So what Ananias told Paul to do had NOTHING to do with getting saved. He was already saved.

8:12-18 is about a city in Samaria and Simon the sorcerer. Yes, they all got water baptized when they believed. They were identifying themselves with Christ as a RITUAL. Did you read all the verses. None had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. Not until the apostles laid their hands on them. Nothing about water baptism being necessary for salvation.

10:44-48 doesn't help you either. This is the case of Cornelius. They received the Holy Spirit (baptism) BEFORE water baptism. And 11:15-17 clearly explains the baptism by which they were saved.

Regarding 19:1-6, here are v.5,6-
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

I believe the 2 verses are speaking of the same thing. But they were already SAVED before meeting Paul. Because they were described as "disciples".


What you obviously fail to realize is that you can't defend your position on water baptism. It is a command for believers, those already saved.

Water saves no one. And the Bible gives us 2 very clear examples of water KILLING lots of people. Noah and the Red Sea.


I don't reject Jesus or His words. I reject your misunderstanding of His words.

You seem unable to distinguish between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism, even though Scripture is clear about them being different.

Mark 1:8 - I (John) baptize you with water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Until or unless you are able to figure this out, you will never understand the biblical teaching about baptism.

I have always agreed that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism are entirely different from one another. They are essential parts of God's plan, and are commanded for different reasons.

Notice the scriptural references you commented on include all of the details associated with the NT spiritual rebirth. Not one excludes any of the requirements as initially stated on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The old "man" along with their sin is dead and buried in the waters of baptism. The spiritual process takes place upon one's obedience to the God-given command and God provides the life giving Spirit.

It does a the spirit who does this by immersing you in Christ . Not your pastor by immersing you in water

 

[SophieT]

Well, I was actually hoping to put some prayer into it to see if God would grant an answer that gets us past the 'pass' or 'fail-and-i-write-you-off' nature of your question, but I guess a sufficient answer might be "Because baptism began as, and remains, the mechanism established by God for remission of sins (to those that believe)... and because remission of sins is a necessary element of salvation, YES, I believe baptism is necessary, not optional, if a person would like to claim the fullness of salvation." But Jesus didn't just die to grant us remission of sins...so unless people get the rest, they still can't claim fullness of salvation, even if they've gotten their sins washed away.

That should at least make my position on water baptism clear, and give you enough information that you could dig further IF you really want to know.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

why play hide 'n seek with the Bible? really? you have to 'pray' about whether or not to answer me? God has to 'grant' an answer?

gee....whatever happened to be ready in season and out of season.....

if someone asks you if you are a Christian and you are not sure if they are going to shoot you or not, you going to pray about how to answer? get real

well let's see. I was saved at 5, water baptized as a young teen ager and spirit baptized around 18

so according to you and Blik, I was not saved until I actually was that young teen ager . only no. I was saved at 5

but its even better for Blik...water baptism for her/him (I don't know) came after the other 2, so what kind of tongues were going on if Blik was not even saved? very scary thought and frankly, Blik was also saved before water baptism

but see...I did not ask you if you thought baptism was necessary. I believe we should follow scripture and be water baptized. I asked you if you thought a person was not saved if they were not water baptized. so, you dodge.

Hey listen.....if that is what you think....then OWN IT!

But Jesus didn't just die to grant us remission of sins...so unless people get the rest, they still can't claim fullness of salvation, even if they've gotten their sins washed away.

yes we know that. but that is not the discussion and not the reason Blik started their umpteenth thread on water

perhaps Blik has not got past water baptism and is still unsure how to proceed?

 

[SophieT]

I am getting disgusted lately, with the false gospels being presented in this forum...but it seems to be in every forum lately but I still prefer this one and don't bother with others because we are freer here to discuss and not moderated to the point you wonder who is looking over your shoulder

 

[SophieT]

"Because baptism began as, and remains, the mechanism established by God for remission of sins (to those that believe)... and because remission of sins is a necessary element of salvation, YES, I believe baptism is necessary, not optional, if a person would like to claim the fullness of salvation."

that is not true

you might as well stick your foot out and trip people as they are on their way to Christ

 

[Wansvic]

uh huh. so now we have another caveat to salvation

if you don't know everything Jesus said, then you had better find out or you are not saved

there is a minor little problem there though. not everything He said was recorded. oooops

conclusion: no one is saved according to Blik

thankfully, that is not the definition of salvation. this is what scripture actually teaches:

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

I did not mean to suggest there was anything other than the requirements associated with the NT rebirth as stated on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38) My point was Jesus gave his apostles commands relevant to the spiritual rebirth while alive on the earth, as well as through the Holy Ghost after his resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The old "man" along with their sin is dead and buried in the waters of baptism. The spiritual process takes place upon one's obedience to the God-given command and God provides the life giving Spirit.

You are free to make your own decisions about what the Bible teaches, but none of the above is in the Bible.

Paul used the term "old man" to refer to the human (sinful) nature. It is NOT dead, but still very much alive. That's why Paul and the other authors of Scripture strongly encouraged believers to be holy and blameless, because it isn't automatic.

Romans 6 proves that believers have a choice as to whom they present themselves as slaves to obey. Sin or righteousness.

Water baptism is a ritual, which is to identify the one baptized with Christ. 1 Pet 3:21 proves that literal water (this water) doesn't save, but "baptism that does save" is a reference to the identification with the Holy Spirit, which is His indwelling of believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have always agreed that the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism are entirely different from one another. They are essential parts of God's plan, and are commanded for different reasons.

Notice the scriptural references you commented on include all of the details associated with the NT spiritual rebirth. Not one excludes any of the requirements as initially stated on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

I've already addressed all of these verses, and shown that you don't understand any of them or what they teach.

 

[FreeGrace2]

well let's see. I was saved at 5, water baptized as a young teen ager and spirit baptized around 18

Spirit baptism occurs when one is saved. See Acts 10 and 11.

so according to you and Blik, I was not saved until I actually was that young teen ager . only no. I was saved at 5

Just curious. What did you do to get saved?

 

[Wansvic]

You are free to make your own decisions about what the Bible teaches, but none of the above is in the Bible.

Paul used the term "old man" to refer to the human (sinful) nature. It is NOT dead, but still very much alive. That's why Paul and the other authors of Scripture strongly encouraged believers to be holy and blameless, because it isn't automatic.

Romans 6 proves that believers have a choice as to whom they present themselves as slaves to obey. Sin or righteousness.

Water baptism is a ritual, which is to identify the one baptized with Christ. 1 Pet 3:21 proves that literal water (this water) doesn't save, but "baptism that does save" is a reference to the identification with the Holy Spirit, which is His indwelling of believers.

My usage of the term old man has nothing to do with Paul's comments. What you fail to understand is that I am referring to something that occurs in the spiritual realm not the natural one.

 

[Wansvic]

I've already addressed all of these verses, and shown that you don't understand any of them or what they teach.

I suggest you read your explanations and actually compare them with other scriptures within the word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My usage of the term old man has nothing to do with Paul's comments. What you fail to understand is that I am referring to something that occurs in the spiritual realm not the natural one.

So am I.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I suggest you read your explanations and actually compare them with other scriptures within the word.

Did. Your understanding is still not in line with Scripture.

 

[rayzor]

because it isn't automatic.WEll yea it is.[ but the kingdom of suffer violence and take it by force]Remember the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.]Duality new nature does not sin just as automatic as the flesh